Sinking scene


I havent seen this movie but i imagine the sinking sequence isnt that well done is it? an overall is this a good movie?

thanks

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Since then, there has been scientific discovery about how the ship sank. This version of the film does not match it, for obvious reasons.

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The sinking sequence is one of the worst of any Titanic film.

First, there is an annoying alarm horn or whatever going off throughout the entire sinking which totally blows any chance for drama. It ruins the calm of the event which is what made it poetic and fascinating.

Also, just before the ship takes her final plunge everyone on deck breaks into a rousing chorus of "Nearer My God to Thee". Like people who are about to die aren't trying to save themselves but instead breaking into song. (Never mind the fact that not everyone on board would be singing that song according to their religion).

I feel that the ship goes up at a weird angle. It needed to be lower in the water in order for the stern to rise that way.

When it finally slides under, there's some kind of explosion on one side. I'm not sure why. Since it comes from the boat deck. What on earth could explode on the boat deck?! I have no idea.

Then there are no people in the water. It's like the entire 1500 people literally went down with the ship.

As far as getting struck by the berg, it literally opens the ship up like a can opening. Remember the scene in the drag race in Grease with the spikes on the side of the car and the way it tore through the metal? That's what it's like. And it gets struck on the wrong side.

In my mind, the sinking is a real let down.

That being said, the rest of the movie is great fun. Stanwyck and Webb have fantastic chemistry that makes their dialogue really crackle (usually lesbians and gay men don't get along, but they do great). Robert Wagner is a cutie-pie. AND AND AND...one of the most unintentionally funny lines in movie history, possibly in the history of spoken word.

At breakfast on the morning before the sinking, they bring breakfast and Clifton Webb says to his daughter, "May I bone your kipper, mademoiselle?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKKm19X-Btg

Check out the look that Stanwyck gives him. We were all pretty shocked too, lol.

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[deleted]

There were survivor accounts that were well known at the time of the ship breaking in half, but White Star Line and surviving employees at the time had done such a good job at shutting that little fact up

Where is your proof that WSL hushed up a break-up? What reason would they have to do that? Everyone knows that sinkings are traumatic events and WSL was not designing ships to sink in one piece. There's no proof whatsoever that WSL or its employees intentionally hushed up that testimony.

There are as many reports of the break-up as there are reports of the ship sinking in one piece.

the filmmakers decided having Titanic go down in one piece but blowing up in certain sections would be a good way of satisfying both parties

1950s period films are notorious for deviating from fact. They were making good movies not satisfying historians. All Fox cared about was lining their pockets and couldn't give two sh-ts about historians. The ship sank in one piece because a) it was easier on the budget to sink a model in one piece and b) it was more romantic and dramatic to see the ship glide beneath the waves. There was also the factor of the amount of violence that could be shown on film at the time.

Anyway, the Titanic wasn't of much interest at the time. The true story didn't really jump back into mainstream culture until A Night to Remember was published. That's when serious research into the story really started.

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[deleted]

If you read both inquiries you'll notice that most, if not all, of the witnesses who said they saw the ship splitting in two were passengers, and the ones who state that they either didn't see anything or saw it go down in one piece were crew.


Yeah, um...I asked you for proof and you gave a vague mention that crew never mentioned seeing the ship break up.

1) Why would WSL need to cover this up?

2) How can you be sure that any of the crew were in a position to see the ship break up?

3) Quite a few passengers testified that the ship sank intact as well. Why haven't you mentioned this?

You're looking for a conspiracy theory where there just isn't one. WSL was more concerned with looking negligent than anything. If they covered anything up, it was how the collision occurred and how the evacuation was carried out. No one really gave two s**ts about whether the ship broke in two. It didn't matter. It sank and that was the end of it. The purpose of the inquiries was to find out who was to blame for the sinking and subsequent deaths. If a ship breaks in two while it's sinking, who cares? At that point, whether it breaks up or not, the thing is still going down and nothing's going to change that.

And, as far as not depicting it in films, people at the time just didn't believe it was true. Fox didn't owe anyone anything. WSL didn't even exist at the time. Fox wasn't after historical accuracy anyway...as most period films of the time. They probably sank it in one piece because it was cheaper to sink a model in one piece.

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The "proof" you asked for was here: "If you read both inquiries..."

If you do that, you will find that witnesses who reported the breakup were discounted as having been confused or mistaken. And this was still the case decades later, prior to Ballard's discovery of the wreck, whenever surviving witnesses insisted the breakup had occurred. The official finding of both the U.S. and U.K. 1912 inquiries were that the ship sank intact.

"Why would WSL need to cover this up?"

You're ignoring that WSL had two other ships - the Olympic and Britannic - that were virtually identical to Titanic. It simply wasn't good PR for it to get around that supposedly unsinkable ships - which everyone now knew wasn't the case - might also be prone to breaking in half. That's not to suggest any organized, systematic coverup; merely spin that - unprovable one way or the other - would present both the crafts and the line in the best possible public light.

When this "Titanic" was made, it was simply accepted as fact that no breakup had taken place. This was also reflected five years later in "A Night To Remember," which, until the '97 film, was regarded as the most accurate depiction of the event.


Poe! You are...avenged!

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Sooooo, no one was going to sail on the Olympic and Britannic if they thought that the ships might break up when they sank?

There was no "proof" that there was a coverup in the inquiries. It's just not true. And until you come forward with quotes from said inquiries, you're telling me to go off and do the job that was already asked to do.

You basically wasted your energy even posting the above because you didn't further the discussion at all.

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Sooooo, no one was going to sail on the Olympic and Britannic if they thought that the ships might break up when they sank?

Sooooo, you don't think both the builders and operators would be interested in potential passengers having some confidence that, if their ships encountered trouble, they'd float long enough to get everyone off, rather than break up? Hell, people stopped buying Corvairs and Pintos on the off-chance they'd roll over or catch fire.

There was no "proof" that there was a coverup in the inquiries. It's just not true.

I guess you missed the part where I said, "That's not to suggest any organized, systematic coverup; merely spin that... would present both the crafts and the line in the best possible public light."

...you're telling me to go off and do the job that was already asked to do.

Well, there ya go. Matuatay suggested you read the inquiries, but you expect everyone else to do all the work for you and reproduce the transcripts here. The information's available if you're interested, or you can just sit here insisting others are wrong and not "further the discussion at all."

Your choice.




Poe! You are...avenged!

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I'm not going to argue about it. I asked for proof. You've given me direction to read the inquiries. That tells me nothing. If you have some kind of evidence to point to, point to the evidence. Telling me to go out and find your claims is rubbish.

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Like I said: your choice.

But I must make a mental note to myself never to recommend a book to you.


Poe! You are...avenged!

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Hey, bring some quotes and we'll be fine. I've read both inquiries already. So if you have something to add that I don't know...have it at, man.

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In that case, I'm not quite sure what your objection is.

You already know it's fact that some testified that the ship broke up, and that their testimony was ignored in the inquiries' conclusions, which favored testimony that it didn't. We also know that White Star did nothing to dispel those conclusions, which formed the basis of general understanding of the event - including film portrayals - until Ballard's discovery.

I offered an explanation as to why it would be in White Star's interest for the breakup to not be known in answer to your question - which, I gather, you found unsatisfactory - but, otherwise, I don't see where any disagreement is.

So what's to quote? Maybe this is all a lot of fuss over nothing.



Poe! You are...avenged!

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The disagreement is that the inquiry deliberately ignored the testimony that the ship broke up. It doesn't matter if the ship broke up or not. And there would have been no benefit to WSL had they deliberately ignored/covered it up.

What's the logic? That the ships would seem unsafe? It's not logical *at all* that they would be concerned about public know that the ship split when it was sinking. It didn't split when it was sailing. It split when it was sinking which was on a perfectly calm sea. And it did so at the end of the sinking when the ship was at a high angle.

Comparing it to the Costa Concordia, it's like saying that the ship rolled onto its side when it struck the rock. It didn't roll over during normal operation. Carnival should be more concerned with the public knowing that it employed a reckless captain.

Same thing here. The inquiries were of no help to the public at all. The newspapers were what dictated public opinion. And the WSL should have been more worried about having employed a captain that would run their ship at high speed through an ice field. And the Board of Trade should have been worried that they didn't address the safety regulations.

Anyone in the public that would *possibly* think that because a ship broke up during its destruction has anything to do with normal sailing procedures would have been unbalanced.

As far as film portrayals, also factor in budget and special effects capabilities at the time on top of popular opinion.

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The disagreement is that the inquiry deliberately ignored the testimony that the ship broke up.
Seems to me that the inquiries' conclusions that the ship sank intact are prima facie evidence that testimony to the contrary was ignored. They didn't conclude that a breakup couldn't be determined due to conflicting testimony; they concluded it didn't happen.
It doesn't matter if the ship broke up or not. And there would have been no benefit to WSL... What's the logic? That the ships would seem unsafe?
That's precisely the logic. As either the operator or the prospective passengers of two other ships of identical design, you want confidence that they'll be safe not only during normal operations, but even in the event they begin taking on water (especially in such an event, in fact). If the ship holds together, the better your chance of getting all on board off (which was the whole idea behind the post-Titanic requirements of adequate lifeboats for everyone). Just the same as you want confidence that an airline has efficient evacuation procedures in the event of a survivable accident. The idea that anyone would think, "Oh, well, if the ship happens to start sinking, who cares if it breaks up?" is what strikes me not only as "not logical," but mind-boggling.
...the WSL should have been more worried about having employed a captain that would run their ship at high speed through an ice field.
I don't dispute that. I only dispute that the integrity of the ship after any kind of mishap, avoidable or otherwise, should be of no concern.

Did you happen to see the History Channel show last night about the new sonar survey? They gave a great deal of attention to the breakup, its manner and cause(s), and even said, "Ships aren't supposed to break up." And they weren't talking about normal operation.

Are you also aware of statements made by Lightoller's granddaughter a couple years back? Here's how she put it:

"By his code of honour, he felt it was his duty to protect his employer - White Star Line - and its employees. It was made clear to him by those at the top that, if the company were found to be negligent, it would be bankrupted and every job would be lost. The enquiry had to be a whitewash. The only person he told the full story to was his beloved wife."

Here's a link to the BBC story:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11390144

Now, that doesn't refer specifically to the breakup, and it's only her word. And I should remind you that "coverup" and "conspiracy theories" are your terms (and "whitewash," hers), not mine or Matuatay's. But it does illustrate that suspicions of WSL's motives aren't completely out of left field, or as wacky as you make them out to be.



Poe! You are...avenged!

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Doghouse-6 is essentially correct in everything he says.

To answer one aspect raised by TheGuyWithTheFeet, about there being no "logic" in the WSL's covering up the fact of the break-up: the fact is that "logic" doesn't always play a major or determinative role in human affairs.

In fact, both the White Star Line and the British Board of Trade dismissed all testimony that the ship had broken in two and went with the version offered by the officers and crew, who insisted to a man that the ship had stayed in one piece as she sank. This was indeed out of concern that the public's confidence in the safety and stability of British passenger liners -- not just White Star's but Cunard's and the others -- would be undermined, and their business redirected to German, French and US lines, if it was believed that there was something structurally wrong with the design and construction of British ocean liners.

It wasn't a matter of the ship's sinking as such -- that at least was an accident that could be explained, and necessary counter-measures could be built into later ships to make them safer. But the notion that it broke apart was seen as undermining confidence in the fundamental shipbuilding capabilities of the designers, engineers and factories that created the Titanic, and therefore all other British shipping. It was seen as something that just shouldn't have happened. The fact that it would occur only under such an extreme circumstance as the Titanic's sinking -- caused by the unanticipated load this placed on the ship's structural integrity -- was something it was feared the public would simply ignore. Instead, there was concern that they would wonder, if the ship broke apart while sinking, couldn't it break up under other, less dire circumstances?

This was the fear driving the people sitting in judgment of the disaster, as well as the WSL. The fact that such fears were misplaced, or that a break-up would occur only when the ship was lost anyway, was basically irrelevant. It was these men's perceptions of what the public might think that drove them to, if not quite cover up, at least discredit and dismiss testimony from survivors who insisted the ship had split in two. And in fact, the word from the WSL to its employees was that it was important that nothing be said that would indicate the Titanic was inherently or structurally unsafe, and that included any testimony that the ship broke in half. Accordingly, the officers all testified that the ship had sunk intact -- which most of them, as trained seamen witness to the event, knew was a lie. But they thought they were serving a greater good, and since the ship was lost anyway, and its break-up played no role in its actually sinking, they could rationalize their testimony as not being of any real importance.

Doghouse is also correct that as late as the early 1980s, just before Ballard discovered the wreck, so-called "experts" still openly disputed accounts of living survivors as to the ship's break-up, claiming they were delusional, untrained in knowing what to look for (as if an engineering degree was needed to see a ship split in two), or simply, by then, old and forgetful. Talk about arrogance.

So was there a cover-up? To all intents and purposes, yes. Remember that in many particulars, the Board of Trade was also defending its own inadequate and antiquated regulations, so it was natural at the time for such a body to reach conclusions that absolved it, as well as the WSL, of any fault or oversight. Was concern about discrediting testimony about the break-up misplaced, if not downright ridiculous? Perhaps. But by their own lights, the WSL and the BoT were worried enough about the imagined effects of such testimony to hush it up and reach a wholly unwarranted conclusion.

This, then, was the "logic" of their successful efforts to convince the public that the Titanic sank in one piece. They had enough on their hands trying to explain the lack of adequate lifeboats and speeding through an ice field -- both common at the time. But at least these could be readily rectifed in the future, as they indeed were.

As to this movie, the depiction of the sinking to me was always marred by the thoroughly inexplicable shot of the ship being opened up on the wrong side -- the port side is torn open, even as we see the ship passing the iceberg to starboard (as was indeed the case). I have never seen an explanation of how or why this monumentally stupid shot got in in the first place -- it's inaccurate and illogical even on the film's own terms. But if you look at the model as it sinks, it's clearly listing to port. Could some idiot in the crew have "opened up" the model on the wrong side, thereby compelling the filmmakers to "flip" the underwater shot to match this mistake? Was it all a mistake from the start? I have no clue, but ever since 1953, people have been asking how and why this blatantly obvious and indefensible error could have made it into the final film.

The rest of the errors pointed out by Feet -- the passengers standing nobly on deck singing instead of trying to save themselves, the meaningless explosion as the ship goes down (I assume put there for cinematic effect, as the sinking itself is, rather surprisingly, depicted with little drama or detail) -- are flaws, but can be seen as dramatically excusable. The ship being torn open on the side opposite to the one where she passes the berg -- a physical impossibility -- is what really scuttles the sinking scene in this film.

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Thanks for the support. And that's a salient point about the role of logic (especially where it concerns public perception).

It's been some years since I've seen the film and I don't recall the list, but the underwater shot is truly mystifying, especially when it could have been so easily corrected in the lab. I've seen so many equally glaring errors in other films that it's hard not to conclude that - what with cost and schedule considerations - it must have been fairly routine for execs to adopt "Oh, they'll never notice" or "Nobody will care" attitudes.


Poe! You are...avenged!

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Thank you, too.

I think you may be right about what the studio execs might have thought about the "reversed" shot. Maybe they assumed the public's perception would be illogical.

The footage from this movie of the ship hitting the berg and later sinking has been borrowed for numerous films and TV shows, and in one or two where that underwater shot has been re-used, it's been flipped so that it appears to be the correct -- starboard -- side of the ship being torn open.

It's really too bad they screwed this up so glaringly, because the sight of the hull being sliced open as though the berg were a can opener is really quite startling and effective. I've never seen anything similar in any other Titanic movie (excluding the ones that swiped the shot for themselves). The iceberg strike has always been either something that happened off-stage (people feeling vague vibrations), or shot from the perspective of the interior of the ship.

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The sinking is actually very well executed.

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No matter how the sinking plays out I still tear up at the sinking o the Titanic.

Even Cameron with further research thinks the Titanic may have broke up uafter she went under water.

Many smart authors wrote about the Titanic in one peice as well.

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