MovieChat Forums > Titanic (1953) Discussion > Women and children first in the life boa...

Women and children first in the life boat these days?


It would depend...

With todays post-modern, litigious, ultra-tolerant, politically-correct, values-clarified, skeptical, secular world view you'd need an ACLU representative and an attorney (who'd have their own life boats set aside) present to determine who would get in the life boats first.

This decision would require an inquiry (as the water quickly approached ankle depth) on the debatable evidence of the ships actual sinking as "relatively" perceived. Further requiring a quickly assembled focus group on whether life is worth saving in the first place, existentially speaking!

Pets would probably be allowed first. My cat would appreciate that!

Nyuck, nyuck - Hah!!

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Your post is HILARIOUS and right on the mark.

Seriously, I was watching a program several years back where a reporter was touring the QE2 and someone asked if it was still women and children first where lifeboats were concerned and the crew member said "no". The reason is that there are more than enough lifeboats for passengers and crew and I think they just fill them and lower them.

Great Post. Thanks for a good laugh.

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[deleted]

Actually, I was laughing at the previous posters comments about lawyers, the ACLU, and the general PC attitude of today. Let's be clear about that!!!

Titanic was an entirely serious matter. As a longtime student, I have the utmost respect for those lost of Titanic. Like I said in my post to answer the original question, women and children first is not the standard on ships anymore. It is less complicated to allow families to remain together and board lifeboats at the same time. Ships these days carry far more boat capacity than the ship needs.

I am not trying to be the "history police", but Officer Lightoller was in charge of the port side lifeboats while First Officer William Murdoch was in charge of starboard boats. Lightoller indeed practiced "women and children only" while Mordoch allowed men into the boats because many people were unwilling to leave. Regarding your statement about more first class men survived than third class children, I can't remember my figures and don't have my books in front of me, but I think only 50 men from first class survived and I feel certain that more than fifty third class children survived.

It is a common misunderstanding that first class was given preference while third class was deliberately kept below. This has been falsely portrayed in movies as well many times. It makes for fine drama. However, the thing you must understand is that Titanic was a brand new ship and her crew were not trained in boat drills or what to do with passengers in an emergency. Most of the crew were not aware of the danger the ship was in. The barricades between each class section of the ship were locked at all times. People were not allowed to roam freely between class section. It was largely a health precaution as well. The crew was never ordered to open the gates because there was no evacuation plan other than lowering boats to gangways in third class and loading the boats from there. It seemed like the fastest way as opposed to moving the passengers through the maze of passages through the ship. First class was physically located closest to the boats. They could simply follow the Grand Staircase up to the Boat Deck. Second class had reasonable access as well. Third class had their open space on the forward decks and the poop deck because it was large enough space for the crowd. Third class was supposed to evacuate from their gangways. That plan failed miserably. So many people died based on an unwillingness to leave until most of the boats were already gone. There was room for another 475 or so people in the half filled boats. One gallant man from first class that was plucked from the icy water recounted that just after the last boat was launched, the Titanic seemed almost empty. The men and officers felt relieved that all of the women and children seemed to be safely away and they had done their duty. Then suddenly swarms of people started pouring up from below and they realized what horrors were ahead.

I hope I haven't "gone on" too much, but I hope I have shed some light on some very common myths about this horrible disaster. I am afraid that the worst factors in the death toll were based on passengers and crew not knowing what to do or where to go and a lack of a clear sense of the danger. After all, everyone know the Titanic cannot sink. ;-)

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[deleted]

I was basing my concerns from a graph from an illustrated edition of "A Night to Remember" that I bought when I was about eight years old. The graph was from a British newspaper at the time and showed a first class man sitting on a coffin with the number of women and children from third class that were lost. I wouldn't presume to dispute your figures unless I can remember to check that graph.

The saddest part of all of this is that so many more people could have been rescued than actually were. I remember doing some calculations when I was twelve or so and figuring that they could have rescued all of the women and children (passengers AND crew) and a large portion of the men. As I am sure you probably already know, Mr. Andrews calculated that Titanic would sink within an hour or an hour and a half. The officers were aware of this time factor and were rushing to get boats lowered. The passengers were not cooperating when they were asked to leave. If they had transfered willing passengers from one boat to another to ensure that they were at capacity, that might have saved lives. Only passengers from third class that had seen the water rising were willing to leave, but had no place to go. One officer went down to open a gangway in third class so that a boat could be lowered to it, but he disappeared below deck and was never found. Two attempts to take third class women and children up to the Boat Deck didn't work that well. After two groups were escorted to the boats, the persons leading them up we ordered into the boats with the group. Sadly, most third class passengers merely went to their public areas on the rear decks and waited for direction that never came.

I say all of this merely to illustrate that I don't personally believe that these actions were deliberate. I can't fathom that the crew of Titanic would have such disregard for their passengers no matter what class. No one seemed to know what to do or where to go. Most of the crew did not even know their own way around this massive new ship. Titanic is one of the historical events that proves Murphy's Law. Everything that could go wrong--did.

Enjoyed the chat. I'm glad we cleared the air about the original post.

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[deleted]

Thank you for a very intelligent discussion of Titanic. I admire your better than average "scholarship" on the subject. I found your comment "simply neglected to death" quite profound. I've never heard it put so well. I share your sensitivity about this subject. I listen to so many people repeat myths and incorrect information and it make me crazy sometimes.

Just on a parting note, what are your thoughts of the Titanic (97) movie (apart from the Jack and Rose story)? The recreation of the ship was incredible. I loved seeing the beautiful interiors of Titanic on the big screen in living color. Don Lynch and Ken Marschall (both noted Titanic historians and Ken the foremost Titanic artist). The one scene that really captured the vastness of the tragedy was the one where Titanic was just gone under and Rose was looking for Jack. The camera scanned outward and you could see how many people were left in the water. Every time I saw this scene, members of the audience gasped aloud in shock. Cameron captured the scope of the lives lost with that shot (in my humble opinion).

Thank you again for an intelligent discussion in this favorite topic of mine.

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[deleted]

Again, I couldn't agree more with your assessment of these films as a whole. The '53 version had by far the best story and Webb and Stanwyck gave their usual stellar performances. That was just a good script. "A Night to Remember" is the best of the Titanic movies, however I was always confused as to why they moved away from the book and why a few characters were renamed (Lord and Lady Duff Gordon were renamed Sir and Lady Richard).

Another movie that I enjoyed was the TV version from 1979. It was not accurate historically and the set were mostly just the Queen Mary. But the acting was fairly good (David Warner is a sentimental favorite of mine) and it was an enjoyable movie for me. Cloris Leachman was a good Molly Brown character. I couldn't help but notice that some of the sinking scenes were actually taken from "A Night to Remember" and colorized. David Jansen was a good JJ Astor. This film took a brief look at some characters that are often forgotten--Dan and Mary Marvin, Henry and Renee Harris, Lawrence Beesley, and several immigrants such as James Farrell, Martin Gallagher, and Daniel Buckley.

Enjoyed your thoughts as usual.

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[deleted]

Well, when I rode a French passenger ferry, from Dover (England) to Calais (France) across the English Channel, it was clearly stated in "English and French," by the lifeboats, the order in which the passengers were to be evacuated from the ship.

1. Children (No age given)
2. Women
3. The elderly (Again no age given)
4. And last, any remaining passengers on board the ship.

I don't know whether this was just the '70's, or just the French order of doing things, but on a more recent cruise on an American passenger liner, and I don't remember whether this was official or unofficial policty, but, again the order of evacuation was . . .

1. Children (Again no age gvien)
2. Women
3. Husbands of women in the lifeboats.
4. Single men.

Which means, as a single male, I was pretty much toast, if there was not enough seats in the lifeboats for everyone.

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Don't worry--I would be "toast" too. Some shipping lines may still have the policy of women and children first. Personally I think it is rather gallant to rescue the women, children, and elderly first. But since ships have been forced to carry enough lifeboats for the capacity of passengers and crew since the days following the Titanic disaster, I don't think there is much danger. However, if a ship sinks like Andrea Doria did (leaning so far to one side that half of the ships lifeboats are rendered useless), there could be a problem getting everyone off.

Food for thought.

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"However, if a ship sinks like Andrea Doria did (leaning so far to one side that half of the ships lifeboats are rendered useless), there could be a problem getting everyone off. "

I must ask (since I just read this thread and learned so much) did this affect lifeboat design from then on? Perhaps not design but placement and launch?

I know NOTHING about boat or ship building...

Thanks!

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My one complaint with "A Night to Remember' is that the movie didn't go into the character identification and development that was so superbly done in the book. Walter Lord's sequel "The Night Lives On" gives fascinating follow-ups to what happened to many of the survivors. Many of the high society crowd on Titanic were financially destroyed in the stock market crash in 1929.

I have no clue as to why they changed the Molly Brown characters name. Probably like you mentioned with the Duff Gordons--trying to avoid potential lawsuits.

Beware of one thing with the 1979 version--it has been "edited to death". The original film was a flashback that began with the rescue of Titanic's survivors in virtual shock (rather powerful scenes). However, the DVD version available has removed almost an hour of footage and changed the sequence of the story from its original format. I have never seen a movie edited this much. I had made a tape of it from TBS back in the late 80's when they had a "Titanic Sunday" soon after the wreck was discovered. It is riddled with commercials, but the entire 2 hours and 30 minutes are there. The DVD version is only about 90 to 100 minutes (if my memory serves me correctly).

Happy hunting.

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Beware of one thing with the 1979 version--it has been "edited to death".... I had made a tape of it from TBS back in the late 80's when they had a "Titanic Sunday" soon after the wreck was discovered. It is riddled with commercials, but the entire 2 hours and 30 minutes are there. The DVD version is only about 90 to 100 minutes (if my memory serves me correctly).


Your memory is correct. TBS broadcast 1979's "S.O.S. TITANIC" back in the 1980's along with National Geographic's "Secrets of the TITANIC". I taped both of them too. When I bought the commercially available version of this movie, I was saddened that it had been hacked to death in the editing room. I've since lost my copy of the edited tape... I keep my TBS taped version in the packaging that the commercial tape came in. I can overlook the poor quality of the tape (thanks to a poor quality VCR that I had at the time) and fast forwarding through commercials to get the WHOLE movie, not a commerical free version that is missing about 1/4 to 1/3 of the story.


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Nov 4 08: The day we lost the war, our liberty, our constitution and our country.

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There are many myths and misconceptions about who survived the Titanic. Women had a 74% survival while men had a 20% chance of living. Third class women fared worse with a 46% survival but they were far better off than first class men,33% survival and second class men 8% survival. Children also fared better than the men and 52% survived; most deaths were among third class kids but they still had a better survival rate than did first class men. These figures are from the British Parliamentary Papers.

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