When Charles Bickford and Burl Ives finally pair off, there are three shots.
The first seems to be from Bickford's gun and he seems to miss Ives.
Then Ives hits Bickford.
Then there is a third shot? We don't see where it comes from. The camera is actually on Peck at that moment, I believe.
Are we to think that Ives shoots himself with the third shot?
I just read The New York Times review of the movie. The reviewer says Ives and Bickford "presumably" shot each other. So he wasn't sure either.
shareThat's funny. I always just assumed there were only two shots, with them shooting each other. I'll have to watch it again. Could the third one actually be an echo?
If anybody missed their first shot my money is on Ives---the Major was a pretty skinny fella after all, and a lot smaller target than Hennessy...
I recorded the movie last week when it was broadcast on our local PBS station.
1, POV behind Hannesey. Major shoots from hip, Hannesey flinches. Don't know if he was hit or simply startled.
2. Hannesey raises rifle, fires aimed shot. Major doubles over, falls.
3. POV high on canyon wall. Major is laying on canyon floor as Hannesey approaches, shot rings out, Hannesey starts to buckle just an instant before the scene cuts away.
Later -- POV high on canyon wall. Hannesey has fallen on top of Major and both are laying in a single heap with multiple arms and legs sticking out, as the Major's men approach from one end of the canyon and Hannesey's men approach from the other.
It's difficult to see on a TV screen; perhaps it is plainer in a theater. I had to watch it a couple of times to finally see where Hannesey ended up.
The third shot was from the Major just before he died. This is the shot that killed Hennassey since the first sho missed him. So in the end they die on top of eachother.
shareI don't have the film in front of me, but I've seen it many times. I believe everyone has missed it so far -- this may not be conclusive, but I'm confident it went like this:
Shot 1 -- Major shoots first and HITS Rufus. We don't see any blood, but what we do see is Rufus' reaction -- a stumble/shock in the body but not on the face. He was expecting the shot, his body felt it, and then he very quickly raises his rifle, knowing that he needs to hurry if he's going to shoot the Major.
Shot 2 -- Rufus shoots and hits the Major spot-on. The Major falls.
Shot 3 -- The Major shoots Rufus. Rufus is wounded before this last shot (presumably very seriously) but not dead or fallen yet (big guy -- takes 2 shots to finish him off). With his last breath (in vengeance) the Major shoots again and kills Rufus.
ksneath has it correct.
There *are* three shots in all.
Major shoots first, hits Rufus; Rufus replies with mortal wound to Major; Major mortally wounds Rufus, again, with third and last shot.
This is all speculation - period!
shareSpeculation? You mean where you give your "Grassy Knoll" theory re: Leech finishing off Hannasey?
I wouldn't deny your freedom to choose to view it the way you like, but remember that both Terril and Hannasey agreed *in front* of God and ALL THEIR MEN to settle the war between them man-to-man. If Leech had stepped in to finish off Hannasey, the range war between the now-dead patriarchs' respective clans would have resumed later, with the Hannasey boys wanting revenge on Leech.
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by - ksneath on Thu Aug 7 2008 19:29:30 I don't have the film in front of me, but I've seen it many times. I believe everyone has missed it so far -- this may not be conclusive, but I'm confident it went like this:
Shot 1 -- Major shoots first and HITS Rufus. We don't see any blood, but what we do see is Rufus' reaction -- a stumble/shock in the body but not on the face. He was expecting the shot, his body felt it, and then he very quickly raises his rifle, knowing that he needs to hurry if he's going to shoot the Major.
Shot 2 -- Rufus shoots and hits the Major spot-on. The Major falls.
Shot 3 -- The Major shoots Rufus. Rufus is wounded before this last shot (presumably very seriously) but not dead or fallen yet (big guy -- takes 2 shots to finish him off). With his last breath (in vengeance) the Major shoots again and kills Rufus.
The above is precisely what the script presents. Also, it is thematically organic, too, as it is the equivalent of the Leach/McKay fight ("What did we prove?") and it is the only conclusion that doesn't initiate continued enmity between the two sides.
Exactly.
shareThere were only 2 shots (at least to our ears). Hannassey shoots, and presumably kills, The Major. From the look Leech (Heston) gives to McKay (Peck), right after the last shot, it is presumed Leech had then shot Hannassey, killing him in turn.
In this way a new era of peace and cooperation begins, epitomized by the newfound friendhip between Leech and McKay (initiated during their earlier fight which showed them to be "equals"), and sealed with the elimination of the old regimes (The Major and Hannassey). Leech, in killing Hannassey, demonstrates his continued loyalty to the memory of The Major, even while ushering in a new beginning.
I have an Oscar book that was published in 1965 written by Robert Osborne. It has information on all the ceremonies and some images from the films that the actors won for. For Burl Ives in the Big Country, it has a picture of Burl on the ground sort of trying to get up and he's hovering right over Charles Bickford (who looks dead). I think Ives has blood coming from his left shoulder. I just watched the movie for the first time about an hour ago so I checked that picture from the book again, and it was obviously not in the film, so it was probably a scene that was cut from the film.
So anyway, just a little trivia for you.
And how do you interpret this as far as shedding some light on what really happened at the end of the film?
shareWell, from that image, it looks as though Bickford had been shot (as we see in the film) and was dying or dead on the ground. Ives had been shot and probably fell to the ground and then crawled over to Bickford. So they probably died right next to each other.
But again, this is just from one image and my own interpretation.
I can't dismiss that look that Heston gave to Peck immediately afterwards. It seemed to carry real significance and, given the events that just preceded it, it seems quite plausible that Heston shot Ives after the latter killed the Major.
Peck had no reason for siding with either of the two older men, most certainly not with the Major who, as it turned out, was a man 180 degrees opposite that of Peck, a man of violence vs. a man of peace and justice. Even though Ives was violent, his was a violence that arose in retaliation for wrongs done to him (and he gave several warnings, including that at the dance, before acting violently), whereas the Major's violence was predicated on greed and power. But Peck could not have been despondent over the death of either of the two men, and would not have viewed Heston's killing of Ives as unjustified, despite the fact that Ives had been wronged.
So, a new bond is established between Heston and Peck out of this episode, and they go happily into the sunset, together, in fine western tradition.
It was difficult to determine who was who in that long-distance shot of the gunfight at the end of the film, let alone who was doing what. But that prophetic look of Heston immediately following that action, seemed to mean only one thing, especially given the lack of direct information of the shooting provided the viewer - i..e. Heston shot Ives. I wonder if anybody is still around who can provide a definitive explanation of the end of this picture.
If I remember correctly, at the last shot (very wide), you can see the Major on the ground aiming his rifle and taking the shot (presumably with his last breath). There was never any question in my mind as to what happened (and I've seen it many times).
With regards to the look between Leech and McKay, I take that to be a look of understanding and peace between the two men in that they know that each one did what he had to do. Leech looks to McKay as if to say "I had to ride in with him" and McKay is like "I understand that". They both knew that it had to end this way (and this was the best solution), and that now there could be peace between the ranches/families.
Also, Leech may be observing that McKay is now with Julie and that he is free to pursue Pat. Thus also there is now peace between them where before there was conflict.
I guess I'll have to observe this area closely the next time I watch it, but it always seemed clear to me.
Seemed clear to me, too -- in the same way.
shareksneath, You are correct sir, and if you look very close you can see the smoke from the Major's rifle on that third shot.
And to those that speculate that Leech fired the third shot, if the smoke does not convince you, then I say Ives was not in his sight at the time, and he could not have shot him.
Watched it last evening on TCM, then rewound climax for a couple frame-by-frame review. KSNEATH is correct in his description of the scene (Terrill hits Hannassey with the first shot, Hannassey hits Terrill with the second, then Terrill finishes off Hannassey with the third shot).
A ground level shot preceding this exchange of fire shows Terrill approaching from around a bend of the canyon where his men are trapped behind a barrier. They are out of sight of their two leaders, so Leach could not make third shot that ROMARUB speculates was made. Hannassey's men are seen observing the final confrontation from high on the canyon walls but with their their weapons lowered. Surely they would have intervened if Leach or any other Terrill's men tried to intervene.
Watching TBC for the 5th or more time ( I love it)
agree with your interp
and agree that Heston and Peck's characters are revisiting the comment McKay made after the fight between himself and Steve--
"what did that prove?"----meaning the same for Terrill and Hannesy---what did their deaths prove about anything except that violence and killing to enforce a point of view is barbaric and so stupid....
Lynch might have learned that--but don't know that Pat will agree--
it's just that there is no real way for her to get more vengeance unless she makes way for women and children...
"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."
Read the book - you'll find it at the library and all will be revealed.
shareOne of the men took two shots to die. We don't know which but my bet is on Ives. One scenario is that Ives shoots Bickford and staggers up you finish him off shoots Bickford a second time and falls dead on top of him. Another scenario is that when Ives is standing over Bickford, he is shot by a dieing Bickford.
In the second scenario, Bickford would have been finished off by Ives falling on top of him. :-)
One of them shot the other twice or at least shot at him twice. Has something to do with Wyler's direction. In other scenes when a couple of men were fighting, like with McKay and Leech, the camera pulled way back to show the fighters as almost ant-like against huge panoramas of the desert or canyon. Maybe to hint that in the big picture the fights were meaningless, as McKay says to Leech after their fight.
shareI just watched this. Major shoots first, Burl Ives show a reaction, looks like he was hit. Ives raises his rifle and fires, Major falls, long camera shot from above, Ives walks toward Major, shot fired, you can see a puff of smoke just in front to the Major, indicating the Major fired a second shot. On AMC today.
L