First off it was a masterful movie. I think the musical score missed the mark and somewhat wish it were redone. Quincy Jones has done brilliant work in a brilliant career, but I think he made some wrong choices here. I guess he was cutting his teeth this early in his career and still had things to learn. I was surprised to see his name on the credits. The music was good and would have worked somewhere, but it and the mood of the movie didn't match up.
shareYeah the music over the ending was wildly inappropriate.
sharei agree about the ending. i thought the score was perfect until then. SPOILERS: steiger pushes a needle through his hand, watches a "friend" get carted away dead, then stumbles down the street into grimy anonymity - all to the sound of a 60's game show theme. it didn't make SENSE!
"Rampart: Squad 51."
Yeah, I think I agree. The music at the end hasn't dated well, which is a shame as the rest of the film remains brilliant and daring - especially its representation of multi-ethinic poor.
Perhaps the music over the last scene was supposed to represent the city into which the pawnbroker was disapearing into - just another lost man in a city of lost souls (if that's not too flowery!).
That music has stayed with me since I first saw this movie on tv in the 60's. It never occured to me tha any of it did not belong. I agree with a-ahb that, like the city and it's sounds, the music represents the culture that the pawnbroker is trapped in and like the squirrel that runs up the tree at the end of 'Of Mice and men' the idea is 'life goes on within him and without him'
share[deleted]
Totally agree with luckemp and DLiebert; the ending music was very effective in conveying a statement that life in the big city goes on (jazz is its pulse) with or without Nazerman and his assistant.... The tragedy, though brilliantly displayed and fresh to the viewer, is indeed swallowed up, and will sustain little or no significance to the mass of anonymous people in the picture as the camera zooms out.
shareI agree with luckemp, DLiebert and zappalover; the camera raises & zooms out, and the music is the pulse of a city too big to care what just happened in one little corner.
I first saw the movie in '65 and think all the music is great, and I used to own the soundtrack album on vinyl! When someone writes music for a TV game show or something there is a tendancy to be influenced by the best of contemporary film music so keep in mind which came first.
[deleted]
Yes, another good movie damaged by music. Had it been in color and had I glimpsed it from the corner of my eye, I would've thought "The Streets Of San Francisco" was on.
shareWhat is unfortunate about Quincy Jones' scoring for films is that every soundtrack that I try to find ("IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT", THE PAWNBROKER", etc...) is now out of print.
I'm joping that someone somewhere takes the time to do a collection of Jones' movie music as it's incredible! If anyone knows if this has been done yet or not, please let me know!
T.Paul
http://www.t-paul.com
I just typed this on another posting about how Quincy Jones stated in an interview that a score should not have been used. Someone once said about the score in this film is that it was to illustrate how life goes on.....that even though his friend got killed and he continues to suffer, people will still go about their business, birds will still fly, music will still play on the radio, rain will still fall, etc. I still believe that a score isn't necessary for this movie but the whole "life goes on" theory is interesting. Anyone else?
shareT-Paul, Just yesterday, I received in the mail a CD containing the soundtracks of two Quincy Jones film scores, "The Pawnbroker" and "The Deadly Affair". This came from a used seller, and at the moment, there are 13 more for sale. The one I got was reasonably priced and in excellent condition. So keep your eyes open, you can succeed in gathering these as time goes by.
My late father was a jazz musician who worked with Quincy Jones a number of times over a number of years, including the soundtrack of "The Pawnbroker." (My family still receives royalty checks each from this film, among others.) Quincy Jones has used many, many jazz musicians when scoring films over the years, so many of our close family friends have also worked with him on various recordings, as well as in live concert settings.
The thing to remember about Mr. Jones is that HE DOES NOT ACTUALLY WRITE MOST OF THE MUSIC WITH WHICH HE IS CREDITED. It is called "ghost writing" in the business. Everyone I've ever known in the professional music world agrees that his great talent is that of a PRODUCER of music projects...but he is NOT A MUSICIAN. He DOES NOT sit at a keyboard with score paper and scribble notes as do most composers of his generation. Even when he played trumpet (very briefly) on Lionel Hampton's band, long before he became well-known, his musical skills were decidedly sub-par by all accounts (including HIS OWN, if you ever catch the documentary "Listen Up: The Lives Of Quincy Jones.")
He hires superior musicians, who have no interest in "the spotlight," to do the actual writing/scoring of his various projects, pays them handsomely, uses them time and again, and lists himself as the composer (or co-composer), and often copyrights the work under one of his own publiching entities.
Jones is a MASTERFUL and insightful producer, an outstanding "politician" in entertainment circles, who came about at the right time in history, met all the right people, and negotiated the ever-changing world of comercial music with skill and savvy, while maintaining an unmistakable aura charisma and charm...but any critique of "his" musical compositions is purely academic, and therefore meaningless.
Thanks for the post, denbeez. Very enlightening. It supports other info I came across years ago -- the master producer and politician. Sort of the opposite of Charles Mingus.
"A Lincoln is better than a Cadillac? Forggidaboudit!"
denbeez, not to besmirch your late father whom I assume must have been an excellent jazz musician, but give me a break--you or your father are very confused. It's not the musicians who do the writing, scoring, or arranging of the music and certainly not "as a group" (although they may play around and "jam" on certain sections). Quincy Jones is, and always has been, an incredible composer and no disgruntled studio musician who thinks HE deserves some kind of credit instead can take that away from him. Quincy was accepted to study music composition in France from the very woman who had been STRAVINSKY's teacher. To have been accepted for, and to have undergone that training is an awesome credit. You also saw fit to belittle Quincy's trumpet playing (as if that had some bearing on his composing ability), saying that he played very briefly on Lionel Hampton's band. What you seem to not know is that WHAT got him accepted in Hampton's band in the first place was his composing and arranging ability, so, as I said, he had it from the very beginning.
I can feel and hear the Quincy Jones heart and mind in virtually every single one of his compositions from the Big Band days to the present day. No way does any of that come from a hodgepodge of various musicians "doing the writing for him", but from one unmistakable musical genius ONLY, and that is Quincy Jones, himself. Your false facts do not possibly bear out when tested by the ears of the sensitive and intelligent listener.
^ "It's not the musicians who do the writing, scoring, or arranging of the music and certainly not "as a group" (although they may play around and "jam" on certain sections)."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You misunderstood. I didn't mean to imply that the instrumentalists on soundtracks and other recordings are responsible for the composition or arranging. Far from it.
Names like Pete Meyers, William Byers, Roger Kellaway, Sal Nestico, and bunch of others who you've probably never heard of are primarily responsible for a number of scores that bear Jones' name. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's the inside dope.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ "Your false facts do not possibly bear out when tested by the ears of the sensitive and intelligent listener."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I beg you to accept that you have NO IDEA about my level of musical training, sensitivity, or intelligence. That is a rather juvenile, uninformed insult.
As you sit there and bold-facedly libel one of the greatest, most respected, and well-loved musical producers in the world (truly indicating that he is a thief and imposter, claiming to be the composer of other people's works), you're hardy in a position to claim much in the way of "musical training, sensitivity, or intelligence"; in fact, this brands you clearly as a nobody. Again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt by saying that you are uninformed or misunderstood, or are merely repeating what an envious and disaffected (angry, disloyal, frustrated failure of a) father once said. By the way, your claim is nothing new in the industry. I imagine fighting off these claims is nearly as common as physicians having to fend off specious malpractice suits. In fact, Quincy Jones tells of when he first met Oprah Winfrey (and decided to cast her as Ophelia in The Color Purple), he was in Chicago having to participate in a court action regarding someone claiming as "really his" something that Jones and Michael Jackson had written. It's a shame that to be so talented and successful subjects one to countless parasites who figure they can suck some blood out of you. Based on what I have observed, Quincy is very careful to give credit where credit is due.
No "bubble" of mine can be burst by anything you say; no way could various unknown musicians "really" be the composers of Quincy Jones's works; as I said before, his style, rhythms, and general "sounds" are just too recognizable. Next you're going to tell us that Henry Mancini "stole" all his musicians' compositions, too!
Hey, whoa man, cool it, and lay off my dad. He made an excellent living as a JAZZ musician (no easy feat) for nearly 50 years. Can you say the same thing? Aside from being a world-renowned soloist, he played on the bands of Duke Ellington, Woody Herman, Maynard Ferguson, Benny Carter, Johnny Hodges, Earl "Fatha" Hines, and many more. Studio work was secondary. It's not particularly fulfilling artistically. It helps to pay bills.
The fact that YOU'VE never heard of names like Billy Byers, Pete Meyers, and Sal Nestico speaks more to your lack of knowledge about the music business (and jazz) than anything else. Ghosting DOES happen. (Even Ellington didn't write ALL the pieces with which he is credited....and he really WAS a genius.)
Nobody I knew (least of all my dad) was "jealous" of Quincy Jones. They just saw through some of the hype. Everyone in the business respects Jones' accomplishments....as a PRODUCER....just not so much as a MUSICIAN.
And no, Mancini (so far as I know, and have been told) did compose all his own pieces. Hank was in a different category and of a different discipline musically.
denbeez--I don't really mean to dis your Dad (although I did...) although he seems to have kind of started this whole thing. I actually am pretty sure that he was amazing and awesome, especially with the credentials that you have outlined. To have played on all those truly GREAT bands, he had to be absolutely top-notch, no question about that. And I would think that he would have just kept on getting better and better as time went on. You can be very proud of his accomplishments. I don't think you said what instrument he plays (played), maybe several, and I don't want you to violate your privacy by mentioning HIS name, but I am bound to have several recordings where his work can be heard and his contributions might very well have made me ecstatic.
And, you are right, it is no mean feat to be successful as a jazz musician, especially in the last several decades. He not only had to be good, he had to have a heart and a relentlessly strong constitution.
So give your Dad a big hug if he is still alive, or if unfortunately not, we'll tip our hat in respect for the talents he had, the hard work he kept going all his life, and the great pleasure he brought to so many people. And now in his honor we can go listen to a great jazz recording and marvel at the level of talent that is laid down on those wonderful tracks!
Thanks, Thomas. (Dad died in 2002 at age 72.) If you're really interested in his name and work, send me a PM with your personal email address and I'll hook you up.
shareWow, thank you so much, denbeez! I just sent you a PM...I'm excited!
shareI'm curious who your father is as well - I know the bassist.
shareDon't wish to restart this argument, but denbeez is certainly correct about the existence of ghost writing for film scores. It continues even today. I used to work for a music attorney and none of the big-name film composers he represented wrote their own scores once they were established. Writing movie cues is not something a respected composer takes pride in doing. Usually their assistant or apprentice does most of the writing -- and in time, if they're good and/or loyal, they'll get an "Additional Music by" credit. That can launch their own career.
I know it's hard to believe that someone could get a major screen credit for work they don't do, but this has long been a tradition in the world of movie scoring.
You don't seem very knowledgeable about these musicians who you name-dropped either, given that you don't know how to spell half of their names ("Pete Myers" and "Sal Nistico"). I'm just saying... You might want to at least do a spell check before you make such a claim...You discredit yourself.
shareNormally I like Quincy Jones' music, but his work here was just ludicrous. Especially that theme that later got recycled for Austin Powers--it was used just AWFULLY in this film.
"What I don't understand is how we're going to stay alive this winter."
Read Sidney Lumet's book "Making Movies." He spends a good deal of time lauding Quincy Jones and explaining this particular score.
shareNo, I think the score works perfectly actually, especially at the end. The movie's point isn't to go back to Rod Steiger thinking about his war days in a depressing way. The city and jazzy life continues as he walks off feeling the pain of everything. It makes perfect sense. Why would it be slow and dreary again?
It's much like the ending of Twelve Angry Men actually. Watch the last few seconds as everybody walks down the steps, and you'll see Lee J. Cobb slowly walking down with that drumming and trumpet going really quickly and fast. It's wonderful!
The score is excellent. The ending jazz music makes sense like some other's have said. It's like Sol's emancipation from the pain" music.
shareThe music at the end is dual-themed; horns are playing a "City Theme" while strings are playing a "Pain Theme" underneath. I think it works as intended.
shareSimply one of the worst, intrusive scores ever written for a film. Except for a few toned-down portions usually involving strings, the score is just egregiously overblown and even decadent, which makes it inappropriate for a film which is NOT overblown and decadent. I could tolerate a small amount of jazzed-up jazz for the neighborhood scenes and for a "city life" feel, but the film was only partially about city life. It was about a death and guilt haunted Jewish pawnbroker's various agonies and his pschological neuroopathy. A far more sensitive score, or no scoring at all for certain scenes, was called for. Although it may sound like a cliche, there should have been some identifiably Hebraic thematic material. Just as the pawn shop/the neighborhood/the city might call for jazz, so much more does Nazerman's Jewishness and European personal history call for a serious musical anchoring in the Jewish mode.
sharethis was Quincy Jones' very first musical score for a movie; kudos to him and his long and brilliant career!
share