MovieChat Forums > The French Connection (1971) Discussion > Love the film but let's face it, Popeye ...

Love the film but let's face it, Popeye Doyle is an inept cop


*Spoiler Alerts*

He totally F's up the tail of his mark, several times, including getting dish-ragged in the off the train on the train sequence, goes nuts to rip open the Lincoln and finally gets to the the side runners (though that may have been the mechanic's fault), waits all night at the big stakeout only to bust Hispanic car thieves (though I guess he couldn't let them steal it...still sloppy in the eyes of his colleagues), picks up the chick off the bike and allows her into his apt to cuff him and then blows the fed agent away with "several" direct shots. Pretty sloppy cop there. (Not to mention it looks like he lives in an ex-insane asylum ;))

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It's kind of the point. Several people die and a baby almost gets run over and he didn't even catch one of the guys , another gets reduced sentence , one with a case thrown out... I think the biggest sentence was 5 years...

He's obsessive and violent for very little payoff.

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He mistakenly kills a federal agent and is allowed to carry on regardless? Absolute non sense! I would imagine the final shot we hear, but not see, is him finally getting his man - but as the film was so successful they made a sequel and resurrected the French kingpin!

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I agree
did you also watch it on tv in the uk, gb901?

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Well, it was explained in the director's commentary that he was shooting "at shadows" as there was no one there other than Doyle in the last scene. This guy was inept and even if you could over look his overt racism, his pugnacious manner in general was tough to get behind. He just seemed like a dick...and not even in a charming way...

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And what a silly thing to go running alongside the subway train when Frog 1 sneaks back onto it! Just confirmed that he was tailing him.

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Come on....You wear a Pork Pie hat when tailing someone? Why not just wear a uniform then. But I don't think we should stop with Popeye. None of them had a handle on how to do survalance and much more.

I did love that part when he commandeered that guys car to follow the train....."When will I get it back?" For a 1971 film that was a fairly new car he totaled.

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You people do realize this film is based on a non-fiction book which is based on a true story. Many of the elements in the film are taken from the actual case. Although no one got killed in real life, Popeye Egan did really wear a porkpie hat, the Frenchmen did out-fox a group of NY police detectives on the subway, the police did mistakenly arrest a gang of Puerto Rican car boosters and the drug kingpin did escape through a police dragnet.

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Your point is our point. If they tried to keep this close to the real people and story, then that's even worse. Especially wearing something like a pork pie hat when trying to follow someone. That just struck me as so incredibly stupid that it must have just been in the movie, but apparently not.

Whoever started the thread basically said Popeye Doyle was an inept cop. Indeed he was. He basically was a bully with a gun and a badge. His every day antics was pretty illegal. A bad cop who should have been busted a long time before all this

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You must live in the suburbs or backwoods somewhere. I live in New York City, if anything, Popeye Doyle was a typical version of a 1970's plainclothes detective. I grew up around those guys; my Little League coach and my judo instructors were both notorious NY detectives. My late uncle was an undercover narcotics detective in the early 1960's. A block away from my house is the 9th Precinct. The word from the old-timers in my neighborhood is that suspects went into the precinct vertically and came out horizontally. The stationhouse used to be euphemistically called the "Bloody Bucket." Detectives in the 1960's and 70's wore hats, carried blackjacks, went on patrol drunk and operated by dishing out wood shampoos and concrete facials. It's almost shocking for me to read someone write that the cops depicted in this film are somehow unusually bad or atypical of an old-time New York police detective.

THE FRENCH CONNECTION, for those cops, was just another day at the office. But it was also the biggest heroin seizure of its time, which is the chief reason it was celebrated in book and film form; and, you're right, the irony of it is that two "bullies with badges" stumbled onto the case. But if that's all you came away from this film along with, "Boy, Doyle looked out of place in his porkpie hat. How did the bad guys not recognize him?" maybe you should look for your entertainment elsewhere; this may not be the film for you. There are far slicker, more sophisticated fictional mysteries and thrillers to sink one's teeth into. This film is an ersatz historical record of an actual event with its ironies and unsatifying conclusion.

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Apparently you're a big fan of the film and that might explain why you have taken at least my comments out of context.

I've never said this couldn't be true and for the most part the original poster didn't either. I'm not from NY but I'm 60 so I remember the 70's and all the reports out of there about the cops often being as bad as the gangsters they were supposed to be up against. So I know that was the status quo in some areas. But commenting about the reality of how inept Popey was still stands.

As for the Pork Pie.....That probably was the director not the real cop. I mean he was successful so he couldn't have been
that dumb. I just think it was a flaw they should have thought of when filming.

One last thing....Early 70's films were all a bit cheesy. There's a lot of reasons for it, but I really don't find all that many from the early 70's that were really outstanding. There are some, but not a lot. Sorry, but I feel this film suffered from that growing pain in the industry. It really could have been much better if made five years or more later.

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Ineptness, to use your term, is part of the equation of this film, if not its essence. Popeye and his cohorts were not used to investigating sophisticated European drug smugglers. Popeye and Cloudy's job, as we see early on, is to ferret out petty-ante drug hustlers. The fact that they lucked into the big international deal was happenstance. That they are out of their depth is a major plot point; it's also the reason they beg their superior to be detached from their regular assignment to continue the investigation. It's the reason the Federal agent thinks Doyle is nuts. It's also the reason they are later removed from the case; so they can go back to their real job of busting Bed-Stuy junkies.

The fact that Popeye is out-smarted - in his own city - by a foreigner is where much of the film's meat lies. In another movie, Charnier, the classy and wise connoisseur, might be the hero; and Popeye would be the clownish foil. In this movie, those archetypes are reversed. If Popeye were as shrewd and as savvy as the guy he was trying to collar, it would be a completely different story; maybe one worth telling, but not much to do with the actual French connection case. This film is not a battle of wits, it's more about two contrasting personality types on a collision course in freezing, jonesing New York City.

I have no problem with you saying you don't like films of the early 1970's. That's a legitimate matter of taste; as would be the case if you didn't like this movie. My only criticism is saying things like Popeye is too stupid or brutal to be a cop; he should be fired, or the porkpie hat argument. Those are thin, almost silly, arguments. By the first standard, half the New York Police Department would have been terminated. There are a few pictures of Eddie Egan online that show him in his porkpie hat (he wore other hats, too), but Hackman decorated his head with the hat he most associated with Egan.

More importantly, you missed the real plot hole of the film; Doyle shooting an un-armed suspect in the back. That would, indeed, be cause for at least a departmental investigation, which would immediately remove him from the case, rendering the rest of the film meaningless. It didn't happen in the real case and was added for dramatic effect in the film. But that is the far less than credible scene in the movie than the ones you state.

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Here's the funny part. I only watched it because I mistook the chase scene for the one in Bullit. Once I realized I had the wrong movie I was pretty far along so I hung in to the end. Hopefully TCM will show Bullit. They just did Dog Day Afternoon. Another one I haven't seen since it first came out. Looking forward to seeing it

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Two more excellent films. Of course, DOG DAY AFTERNOON is another film based on real circumstances; so don't be too critical when the characters do stupid or illogical things. Lol!

Enjoy and be well.

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Thanks for saving me the trouble of explaining everything, wrfarley.

A lot of people are so used to formula-driven movies that they get appalled when they see something close to reality. We shouldn't be expecting clever deduction or meticulous police work here. Popeye is not the hero of the film, he's not the protagonist. He's a character. It's completely natural for him to blunder so often, especially when

* He's in a whole other ball game than he's used to, or expected

* He's fighting his own department while trying to do his job

* The people he's after are not two-bit dealers this time, they're experienced, sly big shots.

The whole point is that despite all his mistakes and blunders (with the added bonus of personal anger issues) he's determined as hell, and that's the only thing that works to his advantage, in both films.

Never be complete.

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Only cops on TV and the movies do everything right, except this one, that is what makes it great.

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Popeye was a little inept at times; but that's how real life detective work goes: s**t happens, and all that!

Numerous examples have already been quoted on this thread, but another noticeable one was when Popeye, Cloudy and one of the FBI guys were following Frog1 across the Brooklyn(?) Bridge. Mulderig actually says to Popeye, "you're gonna lose him!" But Popeye ignores him, choosing to do his own thing.

Inevitably he does lose track, not helped by a traffic jam, and then Popeye goes ape at his own error, probably made more embarrassing because it happened in the company of the FBI guy he detests most.

But I think these "errors in judgement" make the Popeye character more naturally human. Not all detectives are like "Dirty" Harry Callaghan or Frank Bullitt.





“We learn from history that we do not learn from history”
― Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

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Wow. Excellent, excellent explanation, Farley! I love it!

One thing about the porkpie hat that people seem to be missing. This movie is based on events that occurred in 1961-62. Back then, all men wore hats. Hat wearing grew less and less as the sixties went on, but I would guess that even in 1971, it still wasn't that unusual for older men - like Popeye, like Frog 1 - to still wear hats.





I want the doctor to take your picture so I can look at you from inside as well.

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Good point. My dad was still wearing a hat in 1971.

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True, jgroub, hats were starting to go out of fashion by the late 1960s, but as we see in this film (and others of the period), plenty of the men on screen where all sorts of felt hats like fedoras and Stetsons. Even here, we see plenty of men on the street (Charnier for one) and in the bars wearing hats, and 5 years later, as almost a homage to Popeye Doyle, Sylvester Stallone decorated his head with a porkpie hat in the Academy award winning ROCKY.

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More importantly, you missed the real plot hole of the film; Doyle shooting an un-armed suspect in the back. That would, indeed, be cause for at least a departmental investigation, which would immediately remove him from the case, rendering the rest of the film meaningless. It didn't happen in the real case and was added for dramatic effect in the film. But that is the far less than credible scene in the movie than the ones you state.


To be fair, Doyle had no idea he was unarmed considering this was the same man who shot at him perhaps only half an hour earlier and Doyle wasn't in the train to witness him lose possession of his gun. Also that man had just murdered two unarmed men, so his death, whether it was justifiable from an ethical standpoint or not, would've been written off as an unavoidable outcome.

Besides, real life cops get away with far worse.

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@he88

One last thing....Early 70's films were all a bit cheesy. There's a lot of reasons for it, but I really don't find all that many from the early 70's that were really outstanding. There are some, but not a lot. Sorry, but I feel this film suffered from that growing pain in the industry. It really could have been much better if made five years or more later.


No,they weren't. Obviously you weren't born in that era. I'm a '70s baby, so I grew up seeing some of these films. The '70s was a great time for movies because the films themselves had finally "grown up and were far more tougher and much more realistic (that had started happening around the mid-60s, and reached its apex in the seventies.) If you compare most '70s films to even just late '60s films, it's almost like day and night--the difference is so obvious. And exactly what do you mean by the term "cheesy"? I think people just use that term because it's the cool thing to say about movies they don't like or get, but they don't really know what it means. Here's a precise and concise definition of it here:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cheesy


THE FRENCH CONNECTION was definitely not a "cheesy" flick (which didn't have a lot of music in it either, even during the action scenes, which was unique for a Hollywood thriller at the time---BULLITT was the same way) which was considered groundbreaking for its time in its tough, harsh depiction of the realities of working as an undercover street cop to bust drug dealers. Nothing "cheesy" at all about early '70s films---apparently you're just too young to appreciate how they depict the messiness, uneasiness, and imperfections of life,that's all. TFC is a straight-up mature adult film,which is another thing I liked about it. The main characters are flawed, and Popeye Doyle's basically a hateful d*** on top of that. I love the gritty and dirty feel/look of '70s films---sometimes films today are way too tidy and cleaned up for me---in terms of how they look. As for saying there were no great films made during the '70s---are you serious? Check out these films: TROUBLE MAN, LADY SINGS THE BLUES, TOGETHER BROTHERS, SOUNDER, CHARLEY VARRICK, THE FRIENDS OF EDDIE COYLE, BLACK GIRL, FIVE ON THE BLACK HAND SIDE, THE TAKING OF PELHAM ONE,TWO,THREE, HIT!, SCARECROW, THE PANIC IN NEEDLE PARK, HAMMER, THE LANDLORD, A CLOCKWORK ORANGE (which I have my problems with) MADHOUSE, THE STONE KILLERS, MR. MAJESTYK,and many others. Check them all out---you won't be disappointed.

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I must say, being a 70's baby myself, one does not have to be born in that era to either like or dislike those films. I was born in that era, and there aren't very many movies pre late 70's that I feel are very good. They may have seemed good at the time, as that was the best they had to offer at that time. However, film making grew exponentially since then, first in the late 70's/early 80's with classics like Star Wars, Alien, Blade Runner and Apocalypse Now. Of course it was a great time, mainly for Scifi. Then again in the 90's with great innovative directors like Tarantino and Lynch to name a few. And with the turn of the century technology and HD added the only thing missing, realistic detail. Of course Hollywood, then as now, will release a plethora of high budget garbage with horrible scripting, dialouge, acting, and even directing and a ton of special effects/cgi designed to make a quick buck and entertain the mindless masses who turn out to be entertained by such mindless garbage, as much then as now.

All of that being said, the definition of cheesy, as provided states:

What it means is: Trying too hard, unsubtle, and inauthentic.
Specifically that which is unsubtle or inauthentic in its way of trying to elicit a certain response from a viewer, listener, audience, etc. Celine Dion is cheesy because her lyrics, timbre, key changes, and swelling orchestral accompaniment telegraph 'i want you to be moved' instead of moving you. Gold chains on an exposed hairy chest are cheesy because they shout out: "I have money and I am manly" instead of impressing a woman in a more subtle way, or allowing a woman to form her own judgments. The excessive showing off suggests he's compensating for what he does not have--i.e., he's actually poor, insecure, or short with an inferiority complex. Cliches are often cheesy because they are an obvious and artless way of making a point. A movie might be cheesy if it contains 'on the nose' dialogue, like "I can't live without you" or "You had me at hello."

Based on the provided definition, he88 was as spot on as you can get. This definition describes most 70's movies (along with many movies from every era, then and now) exactly. "Trying to hard, unsubtle, and inauthentic". Sums it up. While some may see TFC as "authentic", it could have been done much better. Considering the nature of the story and the facts of which it were based around, this movie should have been a comedy, or at the least a action comedy. And I do not mean comedy in the sense of cheesy one liners, I mean it is comedic in the sense that these guys are such horrible fumbling cops, yet try so hard to be serious and keep trying, which only leads to even more hopelessly *beep* up. Both in the movie and real life. This is one of those movies which leaves you cheering for the bad guy, as he is far more likeable and intelligent. Nobody likes a pathetic loser who continually repeats their mistakes yet takes themselves with the utmost importance. And that is what makes this and many other 70's movies "cheesy", when unitelligent and terrible characters and movies take themselves way too seriously, and try way to hard to be something they are not. I find that far too often some peoples opinions/judgements and ratings of cinema, particularly the older they get, tend to be based on NOSTALGIA, and not legitimate critique. Again, TFC may have been good for its time, but it has not stood the test of time as well as many other movies, before or after. It isn't terrible, just overrated.
As to the list of 70's movies provided as great, I cannot even seriously consider that. Not a single one of those movies has stood the test of time, and I can almost guarantee unless you were born in the the early 70's or earlier, or a die hard film buff of all era's, most people would have never even heard of any of those movies. I have seen most of them, and they all fit the definition of cheese perfectly. The only exception from that list (and the only one stated as having problems with), would be A Clockwork Orange, which has stood the test of time and is still a relevant movie in some aspects. The following quote from another post sums up TFC as efficently as possible:


The French Connection is based on a true story. In real life the cops assigned to the case were named Eddie Egan and Sonny Grosso, and not Doyle and Russo.

In real life, Egan and Grosso botched the case up, big time, proving themselves to be inept cops, and they were transferred out of the Narcotics Squad and reassigned to another department or departments.


So why then make a vainglorious movie about the vanity, arrogance, ignorance and incapability of some NY cops, who *beep* everything up from the start, and not only do they fail miserably, they are transferred out of Narcotics permanently, in real life. Why make a movie about such things and make it anything other than the comedy it is? Why pretentiously make a serious movie about a real life embarrassment, and try to portay it as serious, authentic, or as the cops somehow being the good guys? If anything, the cops should have been locked up or at the least fired, for a variety of reasons, including complete and utter inability to do the job and lack of any intelligence, among many other serious character flaws. This should have been made more like the recent movie Pain and Gain (starring Mark Wahlberg and the Rock, about the true story of some meathead body builders who pull off a heist that goes horribly wrong in the long run due to their own stupidity. That is an "Accurate" and "Realistic" portrayl of strange/stupid but True). Perhaps than it would have been more "honest" and "accurate" to the truth, rather than trying to take itself too seriously. In all honesty, considering the subject matter, this was approached from the wrong direction. However, considering the time it was made in, it could have been much worse. It could have completely strayed from the truth and portrayed the cops as smart and catching the bad guy. Essentiallly propaganda, for which I am glad it didn't do, and easily could have. At that time it was probably hard enough to make a movie where the story is about how terribly inept cops *beep* up a huge case way over their heads due to their arrogance, ignorance, pride, and vanity. It may have been impossible at that time to do such a movie and accurately portray those cops with the comedic tone they deserved. Meaning, they aren't funny themselves, but their incompetence and denial of it is what is and should be comedic. Yes, they take themselves seriously, and that is what makes it more hilarious, they aren't even aware/in denial, how incapable they are. Would actually like to see a retelling of this story (but with a different name so it is not seen as a direct remake or reboot) but more in a style of pain and gain. A direct remake would simply not be possible today without a lot of embellishment and fictional additions to the screenplay, as no one today would believe the blunders and incompetence of such detectives, even though it takes place in 60's.

While their is no doubt that the 70's reigns in regards to the "cheese" factor (80's were campy, 90's a bit of both, 60's were just plain naive/living in its own fantasy bubble that was about to burst), I will say that TFC was not as cheesy as many other 70's movies, and probably why it is still considered a good movie, for it's time. And that is probably my biggest gripe/clarification, is how much some movies are regarded as "great", and taken completely out of context. Though I am a 70's baby, I can assure you most people born after that time (80's, 90's, etc) probably have not even heard of this movie, let alone seen it. And if they did, it would not be well received. Yet I can assure you many of those very same people have seen and love other movies of that era, and the late 70's as well. From movies like Easy Rider(1969) up to the start of cinema changing directors in the late 70's like Spielberg, Lucas, etc. And there is a very good reason for this, Nostalgia is not a determining factor it what makes a movie "good" or that it will stand the test of time. While TFC may be a footnote worth noting in the history of cinema, it simply is not in the top 100 movies of the last 50 years, imo. And I personally cannot call movies great simply because I may feel nostalgic towards them, perhaps as fond childhood memories, nor do I feel movies should be rated on such a basis. If that were the case, then MC Hammer would probably be many peoples choice for a "great" artist. And maybe for some it is. I just find it annoying when some people continue to "age", yet fail to grow. Meaning, their tastes, opinions, likes, dislikes, etc., stay mostly the same throughout their life. They never grow or learn to appreciate or adapt/adopt to changes, or anything current or modern. Not that current is always better, but it is more often better than worse, except to those stuck in their own tiny time buuble, and cannot accept anything new or modern or better, and cling to what they have always known. Their is a difference between fondly remembering something from the past and recognizing it for exactly what it is and nothing more, not making it out to be the be all end all. Or, as some people often do as they age and cannot relate to the present, complain that good movies/music is no longer made and that it somehow stopped decades ago. No, their personal growth, development, and accompying taste is the only thing that has stopped. Some people choose to live their lives in the past, and are only capable of enjoying the past. Those stuck in the past rationalize it by arguing that anyone who doesn't love the past as much as they do, are simply too young too appreciate it. We all know that is a *beep* defense. And the door can swing both ways, as based on the previous statement, one could just as easily argue that those stuck in the past/nostalgia, or any one who doesn't appreciate or hold in high regard more modern films (those made in the last 30 to 40 years), is simply too old to appreciate them. In this specific case, that seems to be true. But in general it is a false statement, as age is not a prequesite to enjoyment or appreciation. The only thing that cannot be appreciated by those "too young to appreciate", is the nostalgia factor of a time they were not present for. But lets not get it confused, a high opinion of something based mainly on its nostalgia factor, does in no way reflect the actual (good or bad) quality of it.

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I grew up around those guys; my Little League coach and my judo instructors were both notorious NY detectives


liar - proof or it didnt happen

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You're so right, I don't have proof. Just like I can't prove you're a troll, I must accept it on faith.

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Bravo!

"If I were any closer to you, I'd be in back of you"

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Yeah so?.....sure. It is not a ringing endorsement of NY cops here and as for the artistic license, well, that was even more absurd than the reality of bumbling cops.

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Ineptitude, impulsiveness, impatience...these are the very traits that make Popeye Doyle so damn memorable as a character. It would be wrong to equate him with an efficient, one-shot cop like Harry Callahan or a delirious, wild and whacked out hero like Martin Riggs. The very definition of Popeye is the mess- the bursts of anger, the paunch, the pork-pie hat, the sleaze and so on.
It is a role that Hackman was born to play. Gruff, gritty, obsessed, slippery yet so fantastically sublimee and likable. Hackman can make even a role ripe for hamming into a finely nuanced performance

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Remember the year this was made. Drug smuggling in cars was not the highly developed art that evolved in the 80s, so law enforcement was still discovering new tricks of the trade like hiding the goods in the rocker panel, ect. Charnier does escape but is out all his drugs and money. Popeye is tenacious and certainly produces results. Yes, he makes mistakes, but navigating the underbelly of NYC is not an exact science back then. No Internet, no street cams, no digital databases. He is a product of his environment. While his methods do result in some excessive collateral damage, he considers that a means to an end, specifically the take down of some high level bad guys who product destroys countless lives and fuels addition crimes by all involved.

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Bravo!

"You work your side of the street, and I'll work mine"

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The French Connection is based on a true story. In real life the cops assigned to the case were named Eddie Egan and Sonny Grosso, and not Doyle and Russo.

In real life, Egan and Grosso botched the case up, big time, proving themselves to be inept cops, and they were transferred out of the Narcotics Squad and reassigned to another department or departments.

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You got that correct. Totally a case of balls and brawn over brains. That subway cat an mouse game was absurd.

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