MovieChat Forums > M*A*S*H (1972) Discussion > 'M.A.S.H' character 'Hot Lips' Houlihan ...

'M.A.S.H' character 'Hot Lips' Houlihan was 'a raging feminist' and...

posted 7 years ago by indy_go_blue44
39 replies | jump to latest

Loretta Swit: 'M.A.S.H' character 'Hot Lips' Houlihan was 'a raging feminist' and an 'inspiration'

Says Loretta "Big Lips" Swit. She spoke to FOX411 about her activism and of course her role in “M.A.S.H.” as “Hot Lips” Houlihan.

FOX411: Did you realize that "M.A.S.H" would become a classic?

Loretta Swit: I don't think you ever realize that, but I will say that while we were shooting, even from the very beginning, we were aware of how very special it was. The symbiosis, the the camaraderie, the love and respect we had for each other. And the material, to be blessed with those gifted writers starting of course with Larry Gelbart. So you had to know that this was going to be an incredible experience. That it turned into a phenomenon - no. There's no way we could have predicted that.

FOX411: Major Houlihan was an amazing role model for girls.

Swit: Was she ever, was she ever!

FOX411: Are you proud of that?

Swit: Of course! I had everything to do with making her that. We worked hand in hand with those writers. I was doing a play on Broadway during hiatus and we had a conference call with the producers and the writers and we talked about her future and they asked me, 'What do you see happening to her now? Where do you see her character going?' And I told them, I thought the relationship with Frank Burns had reached a point of no return and that they were writing her brighter. He was not a good doctor and she was in awe of the expertise of the other doctors and she was such a good nurse. He was married. It was a flawed relationship which demeaned her and it could not continue.

I had the idea that she would go on R&R to Tokyo and she would meet someone who had a higher rank than Frank who was single and available and she would fall in love and get engaged and married. My producer said, 'And then what?' So I said, 'Then she finds out he was cheating on her and they get divorced.' And she gets back into town single and liberated knowing that her work was very fulfilling and she didn't necessarily need a partner in life to fulfill herself. She was doing a good job and it filled her with self-respect and honor and she became a bigger person on her own rather than either in a demeaning relationship or one that was disloyal. For Margaret it was a tremendous growing process. We watched her evolve and that was a joy. She was a tremendous role model. I still get letters from people saying they became nurses because of what they saw her do. She was an inspiration to young women. She was a raging feminist working in a man's world and being her own person. Being strong and having integrity.

FOX411: The show was on right at the end of the Vietnam War.

Swit: We would be mistaken very often for which war it was and our reply was always the same: "It doesn't matter. War is wrong. It's hell. It's ugly. Let's stop doing it." So it didn't matter.

FOX411: It's still on constantly.

Swit: It never has been off the air. "M.A.S.H" went into syndication in year three and it's never been off the air. From year one to year eleven. So from year three to the present day it's been in syndication globally. It's a lot of coverage and I have a lot of friends out there who consider me family. They feel that I'm family.

FOX411: Are you still in touch with your costars?

Swit: They're my family. It's like saying, 'Do you stay in touch with your family?'

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/01/11/loretta-swit-m-s-h-character-hot-lips-houlihan-was-raging-feminist-and-inspiration.html

[–] crockett_john 7 years ago

That's pretty interesting. Margaret was not really a protagonist through half of the show's run and she had a lot of characteristics that were frowned upon, even on the show.

In early episodes, Hawkeye and others only talked about her sexually ("I'll cut around your b-cups", even though they probably aren't b-cups), and when she is in a position of authority, it really isn't one that anyone should emulate, like how she treats her subordinates in "The Nurses" and how she treats Radar and Klinger on a regular basis.

If someone believes Margaret was an example of feminism, I'd like to hear it.

Also, "War is wrong. It's hell. It's ugly. Let's stop doing it." That's some pretty simple thinking. I don't agree with it.

---
I blame autocorrect.

You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas.

[–] crypticanomaly73 7 years ago

Also, "War is wrong. It's hell. It's ugly. Let's stop doing it." That's some pretty simple thinking. I don't agree with it.

It's almost like a 10 year old wrote her answers.

Sometimes a movie or tv show plot is so stupid that only the stupid can understand it.

[–] ExplorerDS6789 7 years ago

FOX411: Major Houlihan was an amazing role model for girls.

Swit: Was she ever, was she ever!

I have to disagree there.

[–] crockett_john 7 years ago

Yeah, I don't see how she was any kind of a role model for girls. She slept with anyone in the position of authority and even had sex with Hawkeye.

---
I blame autocorrect.

You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas.

[–] marktayloruk (2422) 3 years ago

What's wrong with having sex?

[–] Galactus03 (4336) 3 years ago

Why are you responding to a ghost???

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

WTF? The woman dedicates her life to serving her country and saving the lives of wounded soldiers, and you think the only important thing about her is that she has extramarital sex???

[–] Sparky (2406) 2 years ago

Well she may have in effect become a role model for today's hussies.

[–] woodhouse-85051 7 years ago

My initial reaction is she's a strong female character in the days when there weren't many on TV and entertainment in general.
But 'raging feminist' etc, hmmm.

[–] crypticanomaly73 7 years ago

That sounds like a real half baked interview, Switt gave boring answers and seemed like she was bored or just wanted it to be over.

So a good role model for girls is a woman who;

Bullies her subordinates.
Flirts with and sleeps with men of a higher rank.
Has an affair with a married man.
Has dubious and hypocritical morality.
Sucks up to authority.
Follows rules obediently.
Yells and screams when things don't go her way.
Falls back on maiden in distress mode when it suits her.
Blasts her footlocker with a shotgun when she wants another one.

Yep, sounds about right to me.

Sometimes a movie or tv show plot is so stupid that only the stupid can understand it.

[–] JosephQCat (706) 3 years ago

Actors may be able to readily memorize many pages of dialog but that does not make them intellectually advanced.

[–] marktayloruk (2422) 2 years ago

Old friend visited in.one episode- Hotlips explained that being in command meant that she couldn't be a party girl.any more.

[–] louiseculmer 7 years ago

Oh dear. "a flawed relationship that demeaned her". "a role model for girls." Gorblimey, it's supposed to be a ruddy sitcom! she and Frank were supposed to be FUNNY.

[–] ExplorerDS6789 7 years ago

Oh dear. "a flawed relationship that demeaned her". "a role model for girls." Gorblimey, it's supposed to be a ruddy sitcom! she and Frank were supposed to be FUNNY.

Well that just chars my crumpets, it does.

[–] ZakkWyldeMyLittlePony 7 years ago

She did have quite the attitude.

Tony Iommi and Geezer Butler of Black Sabbath watch My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

Interesting. Did you know that the Houlihan of the books and the movie was very different, she was supposed to be sweet and motherly, and she got involved with Frank because she felt sorry for him... and didn't realize that he felt sorry for himself because he was an entitled dickhead? I can't even remember why the Hawkeye & Co. of the book and movie against her, she was a much nicer person than they were.

The Houlihan of the TV show was a bit different from the beginning, she wasn't sweet or motherly, she was a regular army hardass. Which worked in the show's favor, the fact that she wasn't sweet made Hawkeye and Trapper's antagonism with her more understandable and made them more sympathetic than the assholes of the movie, and it also gave her room to grow into a more interesting person. And to fit the zeitgeist of the seventies.

[–] stevewyzard (1333) 3 years ago

Still, the character was far too inconsistently written. Once Frank left and her marriage/divorce story ran its course, she could be anything on the spectrum between "regular army hardass" and "enlightened empowered woman", depending on what that week's script needed. One week she hated men, the next week she'd throw herself at whoever was passing through camp. Even if you take for granted that the show was written by 1970s hipsters who superimposed their own views on a 1950s setting, you could never sympathize with the character because there was no consistency.

[–] strntz (11252) 3 years ago

I think the consistency was close enough with Margaret and all the other characters for that matter. There were many writers and in any series program, you're going to find irregularities from one episode to another. As a fan of the original Star Trek, there was an episode where an ethereal being with god-like powers stopped the Federation and the Klingons from going to war just with his will to do so.

In this episode, Kirk was furious for the super race to have had the nerve to interfere. Anyone knows that Kirk would have been thrilled if a super being prevented a war that neither side wanted.

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

Margaret's character was written consistently and believably throughout the run of the TV series... but not consistently with the books or the original movie.

I'm okay with that. The original books are pretty weak and the movie had the "heroes" bullying someone who was a better person than they were, and IMHO making Houlihan more of a hardass made the antagonism more believable and made Hawkeye and Trapper come off rather better. And the fact that the antagonism died down during the course of the series was also very believable, as these intelligent people who were dedicated to saving lives got to know each other, and believe me that was a HUGE change from the source material.

[–] JosephQCat (706) 3 years ago

Margaret's character for me was a tire fire from beginning to end. When Frank left and she warmed up to Pierce and Hunnicutt any credibility died at that point for me. You would think the way the series was written that transfers would never happen. In reality she would have put in for a transfer once she married Penobscott even though he turned out to be a beta male in the end. Her character was built on the basis that she believed in the American way and in particular the army way and after a couple of rough sessions in OR she was going to just bail on that? In any event one of many reasons that this series cannot be revived close to the original as all the zits would be very obvious in current times.

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

Well the stretching out of things was a problem with the whole show, which lasted several times longer than the Korean War, years and years longer! And yes, these people staying in one place was just as improbable as a 10 year Korean War, in real life nurses and surgeons would have been transferring in and out constantly, as tours of duty ended, new MASH units sprung up and needed staffing, battle lines shifted, new generals took over, etc. It was ridiculous for the same core of people to be stuck together for 10-20 years or however long the show lasted.

However, given that these people being stuck together for so long was ridiculous... the writers were correct to have the hostility between Houlihan and Pierce die down once Frank was gone. Her hostility towards Hawkeye and Trapper was largely based on them being mean to Frank (who generally deserved it), and once that was out of the way they could see that although they didn't agree on lots of things, the other person was still dedicated to saving other people's lives, intelligent, witty, etc.

Now if you're the kind of person I assume you are from your use of the term "beta male" you won't understand that, because you're dedicated to hating certain people. But Houlihan was not such a person, she was actually dedicated to saving the wounded, first and foremost, and that meant she couldn't allow herself to become a really dedicated hater.

[–] JosephQCat (706) 3 years ago

You assume too much which does not reflect well on you. Either she believed in the army way (I thought that she did as originally constructed) or she did not. Frank should not be a consideration as to her outlook on military conduct. Some things such as Hunicutt's mustache should be an issue in terms of maintaining sanitary conditions hence regulations relative to facial hair to be very short or not there at all. You would have me believe that Hunicutt never sneezed so as to have an unsanitary stache? Routine exercise is good to maintain stamina under stressful conditions including standing at an operating table for many hours on end. But MASH would have us believe that all regulations were intentionally designed to make our liberal protagonists suffer versus insure a greater good. Its almost like MASH was written by people and acted out by performers that never were in the military or if they were they had zero understanding of what was going on around them. All that aside I've known people that have endured bad work place dynamics for decades for reasons such as the employer is the only game in town with other things being more important than a toxic co-worker. Just because an ally leaves suddenly does not mean that the dynamics shift. It's almost like that all involved with MASH never worked outside of Hollywood or their regular jobs were so long ago that they forgot.

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

You're talking like someone who's never been in love, had a real friend, or worked under life-and-death stressors, because real people don't let their professional philosophy control their private lives or color their relationships the way you assume they do. It's possible for real people to have complex relationships, where they disagree on things like belief in the military, yet still respect each other's intelligence and dedication to saving lives.

I think I'm going to shut down this discussion, because you've taken a dislike to Houlihan because she doesn't fit your idea of what an army lifer nurse should be like... and your idea of what an army lifer should be like isn't based on reality. And I only debate with people I take seriously.

Bye!

[–] JosephQCat (706) 3 years ago

Running away from a discussion never helps in regards to increasing one's comprehension of a subject. I'm sorry for your sake that you have decided to retreat. Much could have been learned but you want to stay in your liberal comfy zone.

PS I have several decades long friendships among others. You could learn a lot from me.

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

You aren't worth talking to, so bugger off!

[–] JosephQCat (706) 3 years ago

You're an unfriendly sort aren't you? Seems to me if you had a coherent notion that you would be trying to get it out for all to see and gain allies in the discussion. Anyways, my response is far more civil and pleasant than what you would find in many other places. Sad to see you run away from an opportunity for growth.

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

"You're an unfriendly sort aren't you? "

NOW you get it! FYI I'm friendly to people I like, and somewhere between chilly and right bitchy to those I don't.

Now fuck off, nobody needs to hear any more of your weird ideas.

[–] JosephQCat (706) 3 years ago

No need for the salty (or is it peppery) language. You were the one that was initially indignant on a personal basis. So you are a spokesperson for all here to tell me to be gone? I would suggest that your ideas are weird but I have no problem for you to put them out for all to see so as to get responses. This is how the free world works by and large. There are MASH fan boards out there that do not allow criticism of the show and its characters. Perhaps you would be more comfortable there? As it is the world is populated with all sorts of people with varying ideas.

[–] marktayloruk (2422) 10 months ago

As a surgeon I think.BJ would have thought of that.

[–] JosephQCat (706) 3 years ago

Kirk regretted his stance on Organia once back aboard the Enterprise. So it worked on that basis to have Kirk initially arrogant over the Organian intervention. The regret was extremely rare on MASH and usually involved a character such as Winchester or Mulcahy who were written as second tier characters meaning anything they did was not very important to the motion of the show. Kirk never saw himself as a god and during the first season if you look at some of the closeouts such as with the Menagerie or Errand of Mercy that smile by Kirk is one of acknowledgement and understanding of the events he just witnessed. We never saw any such moments with any of the primaries on MASH. Kirk takes far too much abuse in popular culture including the 1980's techno- song 99 luft balloons when Pierce and Hunnicutt were much bigger alpha male American dickheads.

[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make, as it's completely incoherent.

[–] JosephQCat (706) 3 years ago

I don't enjoy pointing out shortcomings of other posters but the failure to understand resides totally with you. First, you should watch the Star Trek TOS episode Errand of Mercy. Then comprehend Kirk's regret over being indignant about the Organian's shutting down all hostilities between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. Then realize that MASH's Pierce never had any regrets in regards to the many immoral actions he did including using every nurse he could touch as a sperm receptacle or bending a superior officer such as Potter over a barrel regulation-wise every time Pierce went off half cocked.

[–] strntz (11252) 2 years ago

Then realize that MASH's Pierce never had any regrets in regards to the many immoral actions he did including using every nurse he could touch as a sperm receptacle ..

Off the top of my head, the episode where a nurse that Hawkeye bedded in a very casual manner died in a minefield explosion is one where Pierce was tortured by his casual attitude towards the nurse and discovered he knew nothing about her. The whole episode was one of Hawkeye's regret.

The finale also had Hawkeye suffer a nervous breakdown for his actions that led a mother to smother her child .

Getting back to Kirk, he showed regret later back on the ship after everything was said and done, but Kirk was shown to be a captain that grieved over every single red shirt that bought it.

Kirk would have been THRILLED that the Organians immediately stopped the war with the Klingons, not thrilled later when he had time to think about the favor the Organians did for him.

[–] JosephQCat (706) 2 years ago

One episode out of around 300. That is like a newspaper putting out a retraction of a story on the obit page. One isolated blip that readily fades on a radar screen. If the writers and producers were serious then Pierce's moral failings would be reflected upon far more frequently. While I am sure that every television producer that came after MASH sings its praises so as to recruit fans I would bet that most use MASH as an example as what not to do in terms of character or story construction.

[–] strntz (11252) 2 years ago

Well, you said never and I gave you two examples. There are likely more but I'm not inclined to go down the episode guide and find any other examples. I still don't see a problem though. Hawkeye was written to be immoral at least from a casual sex standpoint. A constant that shows he wasn't immoral to his soul was that he cared for those who came through the hospital and showing great distress when any of them died.

[–] JosephQCat (706) 2 years ago

Yes, you did. But Pierce pretty much never changed his long term moral compass which would have been satisfying to a viewer such as myself. I should make that viewpoint more widely reflected when I speak here. Anyways, each of us have a different view on the subject which does not reflect badly on either of us. You normally support your statements well even if I disagree.

[–] strntz (11252) 2 years ago

Crap.. i had a third example!!!

[–] JosephQCat (706) 2 years ago

The Klingons were written in part as modern day Vikings who believed war was a way to eliminate the weak so they did not use up vital resources. If you look at it from that perspective then you can understand Kor's last statement "It would have been glorious." As to Kirk he admitted during the first season that he was soldier before diplomat. Not to the point of being gun ho in terms of killing but understanding he had certain obligations as a captain of a ship that could project power. The point in terms of Errand Of Mercy was we all tend to get caught up in wanting to use force to solve a problem before we think of the consequences of doing so.

[–] strntz (11252) 2 years ago

I agree, but I still believe that Kirk would have been first shocked that the Organians could literally stop a war simply by their will and second he would be thrilled the Organians stopped the war period. Kirk was a warrior but a reluctant one. It literally tortured Abraham Lincoln that he would be sending thousands of men to their deaths to reunite the Union. If there was a diplomatic way, Lincoln would have taken it. Lincoln was also written to be a personal hero of Kirk's.

There were enough examples of Kirk lamenting people dying under his command to know that the writer of that episode didn't get Kirk exactly right in that moment. To his credit, he did show Kirk back on the enterprise embarrassed by his reaction.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with that episode but only used it to demonstrate that with so many writers doing scripts in any episodic TV show, there is bound to be some variance in character interpretation by whoever is the writer(s) for any given episode.

MASH is no different.