The Ending



'Scarecrow' was definitely amazing..the last half hour is sooo sad though. What i didn't understand was that Lion was catatonic?? is that a type of schizophrenia and were they putting him in a mental hosptial?
And the next scene, Max is catching a train to Pittsburgh..and he said he was getting a roundtrip, but i think it would have been more effective if he were to get one way to wrap things up..like for him to forget about Lion and get his car wash started. What do u thinK?

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i think they had him going round trip, to show that he wasn't abadoning lion.

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I think this was the tone of a lot of the films of the 70's. A decade that's been getting a lot of attention lately with documentaries like "A Decade Under the Influence". I just saw this film for the first time last night, real late. It's amazing. I , like many, agree that the 70's were the Golden Age for actors and directors and just truly inspiring filmmaking. We really got to see the human condition. The losers that got to win even if it was for a fleeting moment. As an audience we saw very talented actors do some of their greatest work and the directors that created the landscape. These were angry films that actually had something to say about the human experience in a time when we were all just a little more connected. Hackman and Pacino blew me away. It was truly a gem that slipped through the cracks of American filmmaking.

Regarding the ending, it's pretty ambiguous like a lot of the work of that time. If he left to never come back the entire meaning of the film would have changed. Max changes because of Lion. The fact that these two paths crossed is the reason why Max became a better person and he knew this. To abandon the person that got him to that place would say that Max is a hollow empty individual which we find out as the film progresses that he isn't (Max takes care of the guy who beat up Lion). He is connected to people even though in the beginning he says that he loves no one. Lion sees that caring person in Max.

For anyone who wants to see an excellent character study by two great American actors doing their thing, this is it!

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Hey,

Catatonia is a condition, and it is a symptom of several mental conditions, including schizophrenia. It's also a symptom of bi-polar disorder (aka manic-depression), which I could see Lion being. Did they mention schizophrenia in the movie?

Anyway, he was in a catatonic stupor, so he just had kind of shut off. And yeah, they took him to a mental hospital.

I liked the idea of Max having the round trip ticket, that he couldn't forget the person who helped him learn that he (Max) was capable of having friendships and relationships. Plus, Lionel could eventually be better and be capable of going to Pittsburgh.

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maybe the somewhat strange situation of lion becoming catatonic was due to the lack of knowledge about the condition in 1973. i think it was just 1969 when oliver sacks revived his catatonics, the incident that "awakenings" is based on.

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[deleted]

Lion's bi-polar condition is foreshadowed during the scene where Max does a striptease in the bar... this should be a fun moment for Lion, finally getting a chance to see his friend embrace his inner Scarecrow... instead, we see Lion stare off into the distance, losing himself a little, not quite there... In fact, there's a piece of music (a single note) that underscores this moment - the same note returns later during Lion's breakdown at the fountain.

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Though catatonia is found in cases of both bipolar and schizophrenia, most cases of bipolar do not typically involve catatonia. There's nothing to indicate that this character has bipolar--in fact, though he spends a lot of the film clowning around, he's much more at an even keel than Gene Hackman's Max character. His clowning is not mania. He's not reckless or impulsive. Hackman's character would be the more likely candidate, but the rest of his behavior is uncharacteristic of bipolar.

There are two types of mania found in people with bipolar disorder: hypomania and mania. Hypomania is a milder form of mania, and involves a heightenned energy level, talkativeness, and sometimes a sense of invulnerability or grandiosity--full mania can involve paranoia, more extreme dellusional thinking, and hallucinations. Someone with bipolar disorder may experience manias or hypomanias with a varying degree of severity, and frequency. Episodes could last days or hours. These are usually followed by deep depressions.

The onset of catatonia is seldom sudden. The illness that someone mentions here, that Oliver Sacks wrote about in Awakenings is actually a sleeping sickness called Encephalitis lethargica. There was a worldwide epidemic of the disease in the 20s. Sleeping sickness is not the same as catatonia. Catatonia can also involve erratic, manic behavior. This is not the same as a typical manic episode that someone with bipolar might experience. Catatonic manias involve random and eratic movements or behavior without direction or purpose.

Lyon's catatonia in the film is sudden, and a cheat. Up to that point I felt the story was very believable, but having Lyon go catatonic seems to me like very manipulative, lazy writing. There wasn't enough transition--if it had been a process, it would've made more sense. As it was, it was abrupt, and rung a false note. It was clear that Lyon was setting himself up for a blow, that although he felt compelled to confront his wife, he unconsciously knew that it wasn't going to go well. He also demonstrated himself to be a pretty resilient guy. I can see how this resilience would abandon him when, after all that anticipation, his wife rejects him and tells him his child is dead. But catatonia seems a little extreme and unnecessary. I would've liked to have seen a more complex and believable resolution.

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I thought Lion's fall into catatonia was a bit extreme as well. However, it enhanced the inner pain of his character and left us with a sad ending. Sad endings are moving and powerful. With all of the useful panning shots of the fountain and the cherub statues, accompanied by a haunting background score, all make for powerful film making.

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I've heard of instances where a person has received a great emotional shock(like Lion did here) and then responds by shutting down into melencholia or catatonia since their mind is unwilling or unable to deal with it. Sometimes the lapse can last minutes, hours...or even months or years.

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THANK YOU. Yes folks, it is as simple as all that, glad someone finally said it. he wasn't bipolar or schizo or anything like that, stop trying to overanalyze. he tried to handle the bad news the way he always does, by turning it into a big joke, but this time it turned out to be too much for him so he just shut down. end of story.

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[deleted]

His wife telling him that his kid was dead was shocking to Leon.He went into shock and his mind snapped.Sad powerful movie.

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ja5599,

Your points are very well made and you clearly know more about the definitions of such mental illnesses.

"I would've liked to have seen a more complex and believable resolution."
I felt the depiction of Lyon's condition was reasonable enough.

Resilient perhaps, but I also felt that Lyon's bravado was in part a coping mechanism.

If I look at it like this:
Running away from his responsibilities at an early age (but not forgetting them). Haunted by guilt for those 5-6 years as he draws closer to confronting them face-to-face (which ends up only over the phone).
But, as that wasn't enough, he is severely beaten and raped (he doesn't talk about the rape part of it - a "fate worse than death"). I think that is why we do not see Lyon's typical joy in the bar when Hackman's character gets silly and does a strip I think that Lyon had been masking his depression / post traumatic stress from being raped earlier.
Then when he finally makes the long journey back to the mother of his child she blasts him to his core. Then she tells him his child is dead. Then she blames him for his child's death. And, since hell knoweth no fury like a woman scorned, she slips the blade in for the final cut buy telling him that since his son was not baptized and so would wander in limbo for eternity (I think we see Lyon in a church at some point so the limbo concept may be very real for him).

Now ja5599, maybe you could have survived all of the above without any risk of falling into a catatonic stupor, but I think it would have done in many of us.

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Accintltourist, I like your analysis. It is just that I do not know why I thought he was not raped but only beaten. I got the impression that it was a rape attempt but ended in Francis getting beaten up. Where did you get the impression that he was actually raped?

"It's Pacino. It's enough. At the very least...he'll craft a word or line of dialogue"

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Thank you sherinfg,

" Where did you get the impression that he was actually raped? "

As at least one other poster pointed out, when we see Riley, later working in hog pen, appears to be nearly unmarked. Then, when Max calls Riley toward him we can see that Riley's movements are effortless / painless. Compared to later images of Lyon I think it is clear although Lion attempted to defend himself he was to naive, caught off guard that such a thing could actually happen - a deer in the headlights.

I believe Riley got what he was after.

Although we may not know for certain. Max apparently was convinced that Lyon had been raped.

Remember toward the beginning of the relationship with Max and Lyon, Lyon asked what Max did about sex when he did his time in San Quentin Prison? Max looked briefly at Lyon (as I recall) with disdain for asking such a sensitive question.
This was really the setup for the audience; a prep for what might be in store later.
Max did hard time in a real prison (not an honor farm) where he probably witnessed many rapes of fellow male inmates - and despite his size - he may have been raped himself.
This is a dark subject that people seldom want to acknowledge (all the more tragic now with the spread of aids).

But, I digress.
Max calls Riley to the fence, doing his best not to tip his hand, not to be to menacing ... so Riley walks right up to him.
Then Max asks (or tells) Riley, "You got him didn't you?" (sorry, I'm paraphrasing - words to that effect).
Of course there is no need to think that Max is referring to the beating, because everyone knows that is why Riley is cleaning the hog pen.
Now, because Lyon, like so many rape victims is too ashamed to tell anyone he was raped - Riley thinks he is getting away with it.
But I don't think Riley (serving time at a simple low security work farm) understands how outclassed he is with Max (hard core ex-con).
Riley's eyes widen as he realizes that Max knows and he's about to get the beating of his life.

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Well, you may be right. I do rememebr this scene when Lyon asks Max about how he managed "sex" in prison when there was no women and I remember Max's reaction. But it really never occurred to me that the rape actually happended! May be it is me who wanted to believe that since I love Lyon and I do not want to believe he was hurt too much!

Thanks again for your helpful analysis. Why do not you visit other boards for Pacino's movies?! We need you on boards like The Panic in The Needle Park, Cruising and Glengary Glenn Ross. So, if you are a Pacino fan or have seen any of these movies, then please do us this favour.

"It's Pacino. It's enough. At the very least...he'll craft a word or line of dialogue"

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sherinfg, thanks for the acknowledgment and invitation.

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Lionel had a nervous breakdown after his (ex?) wife lied to him about his son being stillborn.
She appeared to be a bitter and selfish woman who knew how to hurt him.
Recall the "fountain scene", where Lionel started to play with the youngster and Max coralled him, with the child's mother getting hysterical.

After the personal maladies that Lionel suffered through (Making an ass of himself while wearing the fire proof suit, the work farm rape and beating, "acting out" in the department store, etc...), this was the "Icing on the Cake" for him.

For Lion, in the end, there was essentially nothing.




...and if I don't see you again- Hello.

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[deleted]

I agree too. A breakdown, pure and simple. Max bought a round trip ticket. He was not going to abandon Lion, especially after all Lion had done for Max.

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I think it was because Lion finally came to the realisation that his way of life (the idea that he could get through everything by turning it into a joke) ultimately failed him. You get that sense when we see him watching Max striptease at the bar, like he feels ashamed at how Max is degrading himself to avoid the fight. It's basically what Lion's been doing his whole life and this is when he realises it's humiliating, it's just wrong. He starts doing the same thing at the fountain, playing with all the kids, etc, but then it just hits him that it doesn't work, he can't fool himself anymore. And I think that's the main point of the movie; these two guys can only function when they're together. The deficiency they each have is the other person's strength; only when they put their trust into each other and cooperate is the only time they can function. It's an incredibly sad story but an amazing message. When I first saw it, I always thought they should've ended it with the fountain scene; it's completely distressing and the culmination of where the characters have been heading to, and also I just think it would've been a great dramatic way to end the film, to just have the audience walk out at this point of total desperation and piece the movie/themes/ideas from there. But now, I'm glad that Schatzberg/White added that final touch of humour at the end, and Max buying a round trip ticket. It's a nice final uplifting scene, that he's come to the realisation that he needs this person to function (further highlighted by the fact he almost doesn't get out at all 'cause of the bumbling moments with the lost money in his shoe). So even though the hospital scene is way too dramatic and almost turns the movie into this terrible manipulative soap opera-ish melodrama, the final scene saves it all and is essential/crucial just to show that your journey with these characters hasn't been a total waste of time; ie: not just them realising their way of life to date has been a sham (a totally fatalistic/cynical ending), but rather having them reach the understanding of what they are missing and what they need to resolve/fix it.

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the ending does nothing for Max's character
it should have ended with him at least making it to Pittsburg
& finding out his money wasn't saved in the bank afterall






When There's No More Room In Hell, The Dead Will Walk The Earth!

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[deleted]

The ending was just fine. I loved the late 60's and early 70's movies because they were wlling to show downbeat and ambigious endings. Real life is just like that, sometimes it works out for the best but often not so good. Not every movie has to have a "Disney" ending where all is well and good. Life can be cruel and harsh but that's life. Scarecrow is a great film and it's too bad they don't make films like this anymore.

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Just got done this movie, and all i have to say is it was very well done but i wasnt happy with the ending.. it was way to abrupt.. i was expecting to see something happen, the movie was running long and i knew there couldnt be much more to it, but just to kind of stop it like that i wasn't happy with. The movie was brilliant and I can't believe that it is not mentioned more iften as one of Pacino's best. and Gene Hackman for that matter, they both did a fantastic job and the movie sends a very powerful message.




its movies like these though, that make me very, very happy that these boards are around, just reading other peoples opinions on things really helps to point out things I hadn't noticed and give some closure.


I only have one question though, during the near rape scene with Lion and Riley, did he infact do something to Lion? Lion was in way worse of shape then Riley was, Riley didn't look the least bit roughed up where Lion could barely walk.

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I was confused at the end of the movie. On the back of the dvd case shows Lion with his son. It never showed that in the movie, and there wasn't any special features to that.

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[deleted]

Okay, but hows does that answer my question.

"Would you kiss me if I wear the hat?"- Tony Montana (Scarface)



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[deleted]

could it be that max went after his money in pittsburgh to go back and take care of lion?

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Thank you Shotty, that actually provides me with a well rounded ending.
Flawed though Max was, his humanity was sparked back to life by Lion, including a sense of compassion. I choose to believe that is just it ... Max would get his money and return to nurse his friend back to health.

Scarecrow II - The Resurection

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Unusual "buddy" film. the ending is very 70s


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»nec spe,nec metu •´¯`»

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Why didn't Hackman's character go and find out what happened on the phone? Especially with how forceful his character was, and since he knew where to go. You would think he would go there, find that Pacino's son was indeed alive, and go back to the hospital to try to get Pacino to understand the truth, instead of the lie he was told.

I. Drink. Your. Milkshake! [slurp!] I DRINK IT UP! - Daniel Plainview - There Will Be Blood

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I don't think he had enough information. He knew the city but didn't know her last name. How's he going to look her up?

ETA:

Just watched that scene again and just before making the call they stand in front of her house, so he does know where she lives and you have a valid point.

Also brings up the question if a 5 year old lives there then why isn't there any evidence (toys) outside of the house. Fairly odd circumstance.

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