MovieChat Forums > Heaven's Gate (1981) Discussion > Question about the end... *SPOILERS*

Question about the end... *SPOILERS*


ok, so at the very end of the 210 minute version, after the massacre of Johnson County and after we see Bridges and Kristofferson's girl get lit up, with what looked to be more than one bullet wound, are we supposed to believe that kristofferson somehow saved her life and they all lived happily ever after??? or was the girl with him on the boat at the end not the same girl? did he just move on??? that is the only thing about this movie i don't get, anyone have an answer???

"Careful Chief. Dig up the past, all you get is dirty"

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[deleted]

Furthermore, it's the same girl as the beginning. After all he's seen, Avery still allows himself to be consumed by the comforts and privilege of the wealthy elites.

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[deleted]

You know, I actually have to answer this, because I've seen you mention the ending to the re-edited version, and I actually think it's detestable. Out of the damages inflicted to the film in re-editing it, I think the ending is the single worst one.

Intercutting the ending with flashbacks is storytelling of the most simplified, obvious and heavy-handed kind. As it originally plays, the movie tells us everything we need to know with silence, with pure visual information. The emptiness of the room, the sterility of all the material possessions, the other woman, Kristofferson taking it all in and finally breaking down. That tells us all we need to know. The flashbacks are so heavy-handed, so blunt, so shamelessly obvious about the scene intents, it says leagues about what United Artist thought of audiences at the time (and what all the studios think now): that audiences are so simple, so stupid, that you have to narratively carry their hand all the way. Such an approach leaves no room for ambiguity, no room for subtext, no room for pure visual storytelling: in short, no room for cinema.

Michael Cimino: "There's a scene in Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid where Slim Pickens gets shot. He's sitting on a rock at the edge of a lake and his wife is sitting on another rock across from him. He's dying. There are no words, but it's a magnificent scene. The unspoken understanding between them is beyond description."

It's on this principle that Cimino films most of Heaven's Gate. He helps return cinema to a visual medium as much as possible. Critics and audiences inability (or refusal) to engage with the film on this level is their fault, and their loss.

And cutting out the "other woman" is irrevocably damaging to the intent of the prologue, and completely neuters the message, white-washing the extent of Avery's final compromise: defeatism in conformity. He witnesses the massacre at Johnson County, and in defeat, joins the very monstrous society that engineered it. The "other woman" makes it final: Ella Watson was the only thing he unquestionably cared about, the biggest personal loss he suffered, and he's even willing to sell that memory out. Nothing is sacred, nothing beyond corruption. Society can commit terrible crimes, shameless atrocities, and paper up the cracks with prosperity, "the American Dream".

The whole shorter version is a lark. UA felt the audiences needed their hands carried all the way. It destroys the narrative structure of the original, and replaces with a dull, A-Z conventional narrative. Redubbing the opening scene with a line like "Still going to Wyoming, James" doesn't clarify anything: it ruins the scene. Now the audience knows what's coming next, and instead of focusing on what purpose the Harvard Segment serves, they only wait for what's next. And when that the next scene comes, it also spells where it's going next, and the audience also loses focus on the present. But if there's no focus on the present, there's no reason for a film at all. It's why most conventional narratives nowadays are awful. The entire story must be predetermined from scene one, every scene serving the sole purpose of moving along the narrative, every connection clearly spelled out, every important piece of information overemphasized, everything ambiguous or subjective rejected as superfluous, every thematic message amplified and yelled out as many times as possible, all meaning simplified to the crudest ideas possible. Classical narratives only work in times of Classicism, otherwise they're largely formulaic and self-sabotaging. If you can know everything you need to know about a film from its opening scene (or its trailer) then why bother with the rest of the film? Cimino had vision enough to disrupt the conventional narrative. That's a reason for praise, not crucifixion.

And you might miss that the woman in the end was the woman at the beginning, if you're asleep at the wheel (her portrait even shows up several times in Avery's room). But mistaking her for Isabelle Huppert just shows you're not even engaging with the movie. There is no resemblance, not to mention very little narrative sense for such a turn-of-events.

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[deleted]

That is, if I am allowed to see more than one version of a film, I am allowed to say "I like this one better than that one, even if it is the version the filmmaker does not prefer".
Yes. You can also say Thomas Kincaid is a greater painter than Rembrandt. I guess it would be a valid opinion... but it has to be validated by critical analysis and support. You can't simply "agree to disagree"; you have to lay down the reasons for the disagreement. I've mention that the final prologue adds nothing to do the ending that isn't already there, much more subtly, in the original. I contend that it in fact takes away from the narrative by eliminating the woman. These are valid points. You contend the changes do add something. I have to ask what?

RE: "Caligula" - It may be a film without a ultimate auteur, but it's still a film which has the collaborative work of several artists. Tinto Brass, despite his descent into light soft-erotica, can actually be quite a good director (as his earlier films attest). The movie is filled with brilliant actors. It had a brilliant writer behind it. Despite these elements never being properly allowed to gel into a cohesive whole, into a single artistic voice, they're still there, and its certainly what the movie has for admiration. Once again, a viewer dictates the worth a work, not its maker. I agree. But a viewer dictates it by critically engaging with it.

I also believe that the success (or non-success) of a film is a partnership between the filmmakers and the audience.
It's a partnership that both must uphold. The audience never did/never had the chance to.
The director's job is to turn an idea into a film so that they can share their fascination with their ideas with an audience.
And he does this not by condescending to his audience and compromising his work. He does it by examining his material thoroughly until it reveals the truth of the subject. He allows for the fact that the audience are intelligent, perceptive people who can engage with a work. The audience has to live up their side of the bargain and engage the film on the auteur's terms. Great filmmaking isn't a statement, it's a conversation.

that is not to say that it cannot connect with ANY audience
That raises the question of what's one audience to a work of art meant for mass consumption. It premiered at Radio City Music Hall and was a failure. It's premiere at the Cinematheque Francaise was a smashing success. In both cases, it was still the same movie. I'm not saying the rejection and failure of Heaven's Gate isn't valid. But you have to accept that one audience is not the same as the others, and examine the reasons why a film fails, not just except that the failure as the only response. Individual audiences are constricted by social tastes, expectations, values and preconceptions about the cinema itself, all of which are specific to region, social status and time period. Ideally, great cinema attempts to transcend these restrictions and be a universal language. However, a film's failure doesn't necessarily mean it failed on these grounds. It can mean that the film did all it could and that these constricting elements are too firmly entrench, an audience too stubborn, to allow the film to find its audience, or in cases where the film isn't simply under seen but actively hated, can mean the film touched a raw nerve that is the equivalent of success with an audience.
after all, it was HE, *not* United Artists, that insisted on the re-edit of the film
HE never really had a choice in the matter. The movie was dead in the water, UA had already decided on giving up on the intial run and riding the bad criticism off (and I'm confident that the bad word-of-mouth would of tempered down had they allowed it to). A re-edit was the only way UA could come close to recouping the cost short of burning the negative for the insurance. Cimino volunteered to the do the dirty work before UA let someone else do it for him. It's an understandable response, but not necessarily a freely chosen one.

YOU certainly have a right to say "I like that version anyway, I think that this version best shows what Cimino was trying to do and say." Just as I have the right to say the opposite. I do not want to start an argument, I just thought that my comments would make more sense if I explained my bias.
Opinions are nothing without rational support.

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[deleted]

The woman on the yacht at the end resembles Averill's college sweetheart. A photo of Averill and the woman is kept by Averill's bedside while he is living in Johnson County. The film is not clear on what the status of their relationship was, but my take was that Averill still had feelings for his college sweetheart or was married to her, which was why he was reluctant to commit to Ella. After Ella's death Averill returned to the east and resumed a life of wealth and privilege. Averill is reunited with the woman he knew while at Harvard, but it turns out she is spoiled and idle. Averill is still alive and has all that money can buy, but he's lost Ella, his youth, and his ideals. If you look closely at the final shot of Averill he doesn't look happy.

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[deleted]

WELL SAID! Total agreement. What many people in this country do not know or want to now is that during the settling of the West, East coast men would leave families, wives and live west for years with a second family-or keeping co. with prostitutes....sometimes returning east or not.he was married , and Ella was a prostite...neither one could completely be loyal to the other.

"Ya makin' fun of me Riz?"- Sandy

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Good discussions.

By the way, does anyone know if there may have been any additional ending footage that got lost when UA (or the films storage management) had to discard many film reels due to reduced storage facilities?

I regret not having read any reference material about the film, which may have addressed the content of the lost footage.

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