Tournament movies?


would anyone be intrested in seeing the 1980's style tournament martial arts movies come back, or should they stay dead?

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[deleted]

I respectfully disagree, EmperorC. Just like all the other genres, movies about tournaments can be great IF they're done right. The reason most such films suck is because they're handled lazily.

The best example I can think of is Mortal Kombat from 1995. Great movie. Would;ve been even better if it was R-rated.

I also disagree that karate or TWD are jokes. They;re useful martial arts IF practice right and (as importantly) if the person realizes it's only a tool, nothing more. I do find it laughable when some ridiculous film from the 80's makes a guy who's into martial arts beat up ten opponents at once. Of course that wouldn't be possible in real life. All martial arts does is make you stronger or faster or better able to take a hit and keep on going. It doesn't turn you into freaking Superman, which is what you'd have to be to win against more than two opponents at once.

So I say bring back tournament-based movies. Just do them more realistically, and pay more attention to the plot and dialogue. And while you're at it, pay the same attention to horror and sci-fi films.

And while at it, Hollywood, teach pigs how to fly. Because none of that will happen any time soon :)

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[deleted]

Agreed on Mortal Kombat, but the core audience for that movie was teenagers, so they had to intentionally sanitize the violence. Of course, nowadays ALL movies are "sanitized for your protection" for whatever reason. But from a business standpoint, if you're trying to reach the 13-17 crowd, there's no sense in going overboard to the point where the kid will need parent approval to get in.

Hamburgers! The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast!

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Mortal Kombat was fun for it's time, especially if you were in the target audience(kids) but I'm not so sure it's aged well. I tried watching it the other day and could barely make it halfway through the film.

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i used to love tournament style movies, and best of the best is truly the best of the best. MMA is the big craze nowadays, even i like it, but im not an MMA fighter, im an TKD fighter and i could relate to this film. Best TAe Kwon Do film ever, but they refer to it as Karate in the film

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Cradle 2 the Grave had a nice UFC scene, though it was just Jet Li interrupting the tournament and tossing the big guys around like they were dolls. Not realistic, but a cool scene.

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[deleted]

first of all before i say this i realize ill take heat for it. also let me note that i actually enjoy the ufc. now having said that, im really getting tired of all the ufc fanboys saying that anyone form ufc can kick anyone elses butt. people that fight in the ufc are the best mma fighters in the world, but that doesnt mean they are the best fighters in the world. take the jet li comment for example. jet li is an actual real martial artist and was at one point a world champion for his style and age class. now does that mean he can beat up all of the ufc people? probably not. but just because someone is from the ufc doesnt mean they beat him either. as far as this movie goes, the guy that played dae han is a seventh degree tkd master, fourth degree hap-ki-do, and has training in several others. he also probably couldnt beat everyone in the ufc but i bet he could take some of them. my point is that just because these are the best fighters who are inside of a cage on tv doesnt mean they can beat everyone up. let me close by saying im not pointing out anyone in particular with this comment, its more of a general statement about "ufc can beat up the world" people.

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Look guys, ALL of the striking and grappling techniques from UFC evolved from the martial arts. Most of the pioneer UFC fighters recieved training from the martial arts before crossing over to UFC.

So it goes without saying that if it weren't for traditional martial arts, UFC wouldn't be what it is today.

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[deleted]

emperor,

Are you saying Brazilian Ju-Jitsu and Muay Thai are NOT martial arts? I wasn't just refering TKD, Judo and Karate. I meant all of them.

And yes, I do know my martial arts.

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[deleted]

I practice both TKD and kickboxing and I find it odd when people call TKD a joke while kickboxing an effective or a superior style. In my opinion it's really not the style but how good you are at it. I spar competitively and I think the most important physical elements are stamina, quickness and power. Those are the same for any style. And although I haven't fought on the streets for years and hopefully wont have to, my friend has been stabbed, shot at and had bottles broken over his head. He values his TKD very much.

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[deleted]

"Don't get me wrong I really like TKD as a sport. I love watching TKD competitions when I get the chance and movies like Best of the Best. But what pisses me off is when TKD students (and teachers) who have never so much as seen a real fight say it's effective (or even moreso than other styles) in real fights (street or MMA). "

I agree with you to a certain extent. I'm old school TKD. By that, I mean I've been competing in the days before we were required to wear headgears (groinguards were optional). A lot of guys were getting knocked out. Knocking people out was the only way to prove you were feared figher. The axe and back kicks were weapons we used to send people to the hospital.

Then things started to change. Rules were made to make TKD safer. The pace was faster, the styles became flashier. Fewer people were getting knocked out, so I guess it was a good thing.

But it was never the same. I've seen guys win matches by simply flopping a punch in the face, or intentionally falling down. Back in the day, if my opponent punched me in the face, I'd give him an axekick so fast, he wouldn't see it coming.

Suffice it to say, I'm no longer competing in TKD. It's now a sport, where the winner is not neccessarily the better fighter

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emperorcaesar knows exactly what he's talking about. TKD, while flashy, is more of an acrobatic exercise than an effective martial art. The same applies even further for Gong Fu. If you match an experienced TKD fighter with an experienced kickboxer, there is no way the TKD fighter will win. While an experienced TKD fighter might beat an unexperienced fighter at best who doesn't even know how to use his own strength in a real street fight, that applies even for Wushu fighters who are little more than fancy acrobats/dancers.

Watch any TKD fighter enter a full contact MMA tournament. It doesn't matter how many fights they've been - they never stand a chance. There is such a thing as superior fighting styles, and TKD and Kung Fu are bottom of the barrel when it comes to effective martial arts.

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emperor, philo, i hope you still read this
you are seriously wrong, the others too

-the real supreme fighters in this world, they just dont fight because of their philosophy of life and there are only a little few around today and are most hermits

-unfortunaly for example the shaolin monks are not what they use to be any more if you put an old master of shaolin that trained old his life hours and hours per day to improve and have tons of knowledge about the flow of energy beneat his body..he could destroy all of your *beep* ufc dudes in a blink of an eye

-finding a true martial art school its almost impossible in this days, almost every teacher is a weakling, you must search a lot in your country(some places you will still not find anything) and/or go to places like shaolin/okinawa to fid a true master-

-about TKW: this is a new martial art far less than a CENTURY, and its useless compared to others, its a beatifull martial art but useless in real fighting

-about kung fu: this is the mother of all martial arts, it has tons variatys and styles and its impossible to learn everything about it in a lifetime unless you dedicate your hole life to master it. but i can assure you, a true master of kung fu will own any boxer/kickboxer/muay thay or ufc figher in a fight.

about other TRUE martial arts: theres a lot of martial arts out there that are great, im using kung fu as an example mainly because its the oldest one and the widest.

-about muay thay, boxing, etc: this arts/sports, are much easier to learn and master, you are right in one thing if you practice this for a year 2 times a weak and go fighting against a kung fu apprentice that practice the same amount of time that you or even much more, you will beat his ass, thats why you think these are superior to other arts like kung fu, but theres a probleme with this arts, they are all about brute speed and brute strenght, a kung fu master dominates the energy in his body, and go trhough all of harshes, training to reach the piancle of the body speed, strenght and stamina, also they can focus all the energy of their bodies in a single blow an iron palm master can kill any being on the planet with a single blow, dont belive? look http://www.harmoniousfist.com/images/2.jpg, he is ku yu cheung and this is nothing like the things you see on espn, he is breaking solid bricks, and look how thin he is, brute force? i dont think so, imagine in the old days of kung fu, before the mongol invasion, they were unbeatable in hand to hand combat, of course this is not documented but they fought even tigerts with their bare hands, dont think ali, tyson / shamrock, tito ortiz can do this right?

about UFC and similars: you will come and tell me, in the old day of UFC, etc, the martial artists specialists were destroy. in a way i already explained the reason for this, it easier to master, few things of kickboxing, jiujitsu, etc than a whole martial art like kung fu, and with that you have ownage against common martial artist etc.
in ufc the fighters figh for things like money, proving to be the best, etc, not to preserve life, a true "master" will NEVER compete in things like this, it goes agasint their philosophy and way of life, and it may sound cheesy, but if you fight just for things like that, its impossible to reach your own limit.

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re:martin gf
Well said this UFC MMA stuff on TV is a base comercial entity. Anyone can learn kick boxing or the like and be quite good at close in combat and grappling but where is the beauty in that.
Bruce Lee always claimed that the ultimate style was no style, a universal style incorporating mastery in all situations.
I am a new student to TWD and I have done some boxing in the past, sure, all you kick boxers might with equal training kick my ass now but in a few years? youre training will stagnate while a martial artist develops and learns over many years, in short you would not put a glove on a black belt TWDist or karate or kung fu black belt.
Also TWD while official since 1955 has been around for 2000 years in some form or another.
All us martial artists should unite together against the surfer mentality.

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You guys need to stop watching wire work Wu Shu movies.

-the real supreme fighters in this world, they just dont fight because of their philosophy of life and there are only a little few around today and are most hermits


Yes, I'm sure the best fighters in the world are the people who never fight. The guys who fight daily obviously can't stand up to someone with no experience in a full contact fight where people bite each other, knee each other, etc.

-unfortunaly for example the shaolin monks are not what they use to be any more if you put an old master of shaolin that trained old his life hours and hours per day to improve and have tons of knowledge about the flow of energy beneat his body..he could destroy all of your *beep* ufc dudes in a blink of an eye


Yes, the original Shaolin monks were also said to have telekinetic powers. Obviously someone who can move things with his mind and set things on fire with his body's energy can beat anyone.

-finding a true martial art school its almost impossible in this days, almost every teacher is a weakling, you must search a lot in your country(some places you will still not find anything) and/or go to places like shaolin/okinawa to fid a true master-


That's probably because most of these elite martial artists today "just don't fight because of their philosophy of life."

-about TKW: this is a new martial art far less than a CENTURY, and its useless compared to others, its a beatifull martial art but useless in real fighting


At least we agree on one thing.

-about kung fu: this is the mother of all martial arts, it has tons variatys and styles and its impossible to learn everything about it in a lifetime unless you dedicate your hole life to master it. but i can assure you, a true master of kung fu will own any boxer/kickboxer/muay thay or ufc figher in a fight.


Nope. There have been private challenges and these so-called kung fu masters never win. You can say that none of these kung fu masters were real, but then you might as well say Bruce Lee was a fake.

This is real life we're talking about, not movies. You seem to be an authority when it comes to martial arts. Apparently there are awesome martial artists out that never fight and have never been publically seen. You'll have a better time convincing me that Santa Claus is real, because there's just as much evidence that he's climbing down chimneys and giving kids presents as there is evidence that such kung fu masters exist.

I am a new student to TWD and I have done some boxing in the past, sure, all you kick boxers might with equal training kick my ass now but in a few years? youre training will stagnate while a martial artist develops and learns over many years, in short you would not put a glove on a black belt TWDist or karate or kung fu black belt.


Not all full contact tournaments involve any sort of gloves or padding, and TWD guys are the sorriest losers every time. I'm sorry, but there's just no excuse you can make to make TWD look like an effective martial art. Even martingf seems to realize this.

When you guys talk about taking a person down with one strike, that's pretty much what it requires for a martial artist who relies primarily on strikes (ex: Gong Ku master) to beat a grappler. A grappler studies every possible way to overpower someone once they are up close. They are masters when it comes to controlling body weight, understanding motion, and the physical limitations of the human body. All a skilled grappler has to do to beat any striker is to be able to get close, so the only chance a striker really has (no matter how good he is), is to take the master grappler down in one swift strike before the grappler can get close at all. That has happened before when the opponent dropped his guard, but it's very uncommon against a skilled grappler since they are going to keep their guard up all the way up to the point where they tackle the opponent to the ground. Even Bruce Lee would be helpless in a locked position with a skilled grappler.

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an iron palm strike would destroy your arm theres no cover that works

look for this guy, mas oyama (1923-1994), he fought 300 men in a row and didnt loose, killed a man with a single blow, fought 50 buffalos killing 4, he is the founder of karate kyokushinkai, kickboxing was develop from that karate style, DO RESEARCH

about the kung fu dudes in private challenges: lame *beep* mark my word.
and about bruce lee: decent fighter nothing more, i can see lots of ufc dudes beating him.

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Philosophous man what are you on about Taekwondo being useless, tell me why when I train 3/4 nights a week in kicking punching conditioning would this be useless in a real fight situation?
We spar after every session for 10 mins this is almost full contact training looking for openings practising kicks in combat conditions plus all the time strengthening the body against attack.
Self defence is also taught in our class, so once again how is TWD useless?

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because in TWD, the most important strike its kicking and also fancy high kicks, and what decides almost every time a fight is a fist, also a high kick missed will leave you open to death, the kicks must be almost always below the hip

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ok good point but isnt the side kick to the abs and the snap kick to stomach or groin the most important kicks in TWD? these are both low kicks we also work on punches and kick combinations aimed at combat conditions not necessarily point scoring in some tournament.
Personally I feel alot more confident of defending myself in a ring or on the street.

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[deleted]

shanefelle, i dont say TWD is completly useless, it useless compare to others martial arts
feel confident in a fight, but only against inexperienced opponents

bye

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pixie: I think wirework choreography has its place in Wuxia Pien, but those movies are more like fantasy movies than martial arts movies. I hate it when they use wirework effects in movies that aren't set in a fantasy setting like Cradle 2 the Grave.

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Sorry but Taekwondo is a good for fighting, I'm on the Japan TKD olympic squad and it is a very good art, it is used in our army's and I have seen many jujitsu and wrestling people hurt.

Don't squander your time being foolish, go and learn

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I believe i can share information that would shock most of the pessimistic haters and 'non-believers' of martial arts (such as Tae Kwon Do).
While i'm a huge fan of Bruce Lee, and Jeet Kune Do is obviously THE system for fighting (not a style though), other styles are also extremely useful, especially Karate (which i practice- Goju Ryu styles, and also Kobudo).

I remember once on one of the special features on a Jackie Chan DVD i had (Drunken Master i think)was a Hwang JAng Lee kicking showcase, and told of how when he was training the Korean Army, a Vietnamese knife fighting expert challenged him to a duel- his weaponry skills against an empty handed Tae Kwon Do exponent- Hwang JAng Lee. Within a minute or so, Hwang killed him with a swift, sharp roundhouse kick to the head.

It does not show that TKD is superior to say, JKD, but it emphasises any earlier posters comments that a skilled fighter can make any martial art a deadly weapon.

Hence, if excelled in, TKD can be fatally effective.

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There's a lot of faith in these martial arts. Like any other faith, there's a whole lot of evidence to the contrary, and little or no evidence to support the faith (and the little evidence that exists is easily disputable).

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"While an experienced TKD fighter might beat an unexperienced fighter at best who doesn't even know how to use his own strength in a real street fight, that applies even for Wushu fighters who are little more than fancy acrobats/dancers. "

Fancy acrobats/dancers? Boy, you have alot to read about, and research to do. And your argument about strikers relying on one solid shot to beat an opponent? Completely wrong. There are several branches of Kung Fu that do not rely on one strike or any strikes given from themselves, but by using the momentum and force of the opponent to attack himself.

What you seem to be forgetting as well is that, grappling relies on taking down the opponent by tackling, and wrestling him to the ground. What you're also forgetting, or maybe because of the fact you just didn't know because you didn't research, is that Kung Fu also has several grappling components, and before the "skilled grappler" can even take him down, the Kung Fu master would already know how to avoid/counter the tackle, while laying down a solid punch/kick in a vulnerable spot to put him down. And if it were a "real" fight like you so often suggested, the Kung Fu practitioner would already have broken several parts of his opponents body before he could get the full tackle down. Kung Fu doesn't always count on striking. I don't think you even knew that.

And what you say is true - how is it possible for a person to find a "true Kung Fu/martial Artist" who possesses the highest form of fighting, that can beat anything, anyone?

You say there is little evidence to prove that such people exist. And THAT'S the whole point. The statement of "There IS TONS of evidence that the most talented and skilled martial artists who can beat anyone are hiding away and are in solitude" Don't you see that this statement is contradictory? The skilled Kung Fu artists can't be found because that's their whole point of hiding!!!

And for that, there's reason for ignorance. It's just not your fault. Like you, alot of naysayers can never be convinced until it's right there in your face, square and simple. So if you really want to be convinced, I suggest you go hunting down for some and putting a grappler in front of him, because other than that, people like you will never believe. Even so, I can still imagine you not believing it. Whether it's because you're a grappler yourself, or you just don't have a clue what you're talking about.

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Fancy acrobats/dancers? Boy, you have alot to read about, and research to do. And your argument about strikers relying on one solid shot to beat an opponent?


You're completely misinterpreting my statement. I'm saying when you take someone who's skilled at, say, TKD, their little hope of beating a skilled grappler is with one lucky strike that manages to completely subdue (possibly kill) their opponent.

What you seem to be forgetting as well is that, grappling relies on taking down the opponent by tackling, and wrestling him to the ground. What you're also forgetting, or maybe because of the fact you just didn't know because you didn't research, is that Kung Fu also has several grappling components, and before the "skilled grappler" can even take him down, the Kung Fu master would already know how to avoid/counter the tackle, while laying down a solid punch/kick in a vulnerable spot to put him down. And if it were a "real" fight like you so often suggested, the Kung Fu practitioner would already have broken several parts of his opponents body before he could get the full tackle down. Kung Fu doesn't always count on striking. I don't think you even knew that.


I know more about Kung Fu and its history from Hwang Jang Lee to ancient forms of Kung Fu than you could possibly imagine. You probably also forget that most skilled grapplers are powerful strikers who know exactly where to strike to instantly subdue an opponent.

You say there is little evidence to prove that such people exist. And THAT'S the whole point. The statement of "There IS TONS of evidence that the most talented and skilled martial artists who can beat anyone are hiding away and are in solitude" Don't you see that this statement is contradictory? The skilled Kung Fu artists can't be found because that's their whole point of hiding!!!


Duh, that's what I'm saying. You have to accept it on faith. There is no evidence: for all practical purposes, they don't exist any more so than Santa Claus. You're deriving all your knowledge from watching movies like Once Upon a Time in China and perhaps even Best of the Best and possibly the folk lore behind Shaolin monks (of which telekinesis is included), whereas I'm deriving evidence from real world, full-contact events (and no, UFC tournaments don't really count as they have rules which prevent strangling, biting, eye gouging, etc).

Unlike you, I have plenty of real-world evidence. You accept things on faith just because you are told such skilled masters exist and feel it necessary to propagate this information (despite having no first-hand evidence at all), whereas I rely on concrete, empirical evidence.

Now, normally I don't try to put down people of faith like yourself whether they believe in aliens, an almighty being who created the universe, a Santa Claus, or in Kung Fu hermits who never actually fight but can beat anyone in the world, but you seem to forget that you're accepting things on faith alone. There is no disproving the notion that Santa Claus exists, but rational thinking doesn't involve believe in something just because it can't be disproved (one could just as well say a giant pink turtle-rabbit made Mars); they believe in something because there's concrete evidence to support the claim.

So, ultimately this is a discussion of faith, and like any discussion based on faith, there is no winning on either side, as the faithful side tends to ignore concrete evidence pointing to the contrary, and the disbelievers tend to rely solely on concrete evidence, so we might as well give it a rest here. You can believe in whatever you like, but know that your beliefs are based on faith.

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Tell me, what are you gonna do if someone wraps his arms around you and locks you arms and legs. What are you gonna do if someone catches your foot and throws you down. Im sorry, but I am a black belt in Tae kwon do and I will readily admit that the tae kwon do practed today is not an effective fighting style. Now, that being said, it does not mean that its useless for self defense. But, put a ninth degree black belt against a brazlian jiu jitsu purple belt and 9/10 the bjj purple belt will win.

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Grapplers play on one true advantage in a real fight: Get on top of your opponent and its ALL OVER. Hold their hand, hold them down in that position and you are free to hit any of their vital parts if need be. But this also goes down to many factors, such as how fast you can do this and how experienced the guy you are fighting is. A takedown doesn't finish a fight. It sure as hell can shock someone who isn't used to it. But don't go under the assumption that takedown into anything owns anyone. And what if your opponent has faced grapplers and can scout which part of the body to hold for a take down? I doubt they would let you grab their leg without feeling a fist flying to your head.
In any fight, experience, training and conditioning can dictate who wins over anyone.

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ur so wrong about tkd and kickboxing
on www.youtube.com there is a match up between the two and the kickboxer gets beat soooooo bad its unreal flying spinning back kicks and all sorts its unreal

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[deleted]

[deleted]

why is everyone talking about kickboxing like it is its own martial art? kickboxing can be formed from different styles but the core of most kickboxing you see is basically tkd and boxing. i myself am a tkd black belt and have done competetive kickboxing as well. also the kickboxing has more punches thing is false as well. kickboxers' individual styles decide how many punches or kicks are thrown not a kickboxing "kata".

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I am an experienced WTF Taekwondo Competitor and I've national titles in Kickboxing, and ITF

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I know your type, you are one of those meathead thugs who are cross-eyed and only know other martial arts by what you see on the surface area. You have no concept of what martial arts is, only that styles beat styles and that you should stick to one block head style of fighting. The basis of my martial arts is WTF taekwondo, and I do not fit the typical flashy high kick persona that you seem to think is the basis of TKD, which it isn't. I have been to many mutliple style fighting tournaments and every combative art has the same underlying concept, who ever wants the win more gets it, as long as you are smart and can respond to distance and timing, this is the same for every martial art, the only thing that changes are the tools you use. In a realistic situation, any tool can be used if you are the one who wants to survive more and understands the concepts of distance and timing, even though you have your grappling knowledge, although I also have that... You would simply get your throat stabbed by my keychain. As cowardly as your meathead mentality might think that, and as hard as you might think you are, having blood come out of your jugular means certain death...

I guess my point is, there is no superior style. Taekwondo has more benifit than your meathead mentality could ever realise and all martial arts basically teach the same thing, just use different tools to get the same objective. You only look at tools and not the underlying concepts that created them, which also means you don't even understand how to use the tools you havem which I can then conclude in saying, that you probably don't perform well against good opponents, a typical meathead.... does this sound familiar, you'll also try to justify yourself by saying something about being harder and about how many titles you've won, but at the end of the day, you are a sorry excuse for a combative athlete with no understanding of anything outside your own self absorbed meathead mentality.

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[deleted]

i love watching a thread develop into something like this

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Great movie, just saw Eric on CSI Miami. :)

River told 'The spirits were coming to get him and whoever was up there was pulling him away.'

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I think that no one style is really "better" than the other. Personally I am getting really tired of MMA people saying TMA is garbage, it doesn't work, it is useless. TMA is just as useful as MMA. There are some styles which are more complete than other styles. I guess MMA is fairly complete because it incorporates striking and grappling. Traditional kung fu also incorporates striking and grappling, so it is fairly complete as well. Tae Kwon Do concentrates mainly on kicking, and Brazilian Jui Jitsu mainly on grappling, so they are less complete. But a skilled practitioner in either can be deadly. Kickboxing is not the most complete striking art, it is a sport, and there are no legal leg sweeps, open hand strikes, etc. The problem is most strikers train against strikers, and most grapplers train against someone in a fighting stance, which could be a striker or grappler. Therefore one must be complete in their techniques and training to respond to any type of situation. I don't really like putting people's styles down, my Sifu teaches us that that is wrong, but I practice kung fu so I am a little biased. Anyways that's just my two cents.

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This discussion is awesome, I may be coming in a little bit late here, but I have to disagree that that MMA is the "best" Martial Art.
Any one who knows any thing about Martial Arts knows that Karate is the best.
A friend of mine does has been doing Karate for about 6-7 years and he is the toughest dude in the village, maybe in the whole damn town now.
Granted, guys like Royce Gracie and Frank Shamrock are tough, but no one in the world is as tough as Chuck Norris, undefeated 5 times World Karate Champion. surely this means Karate is the best.

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Oh go break boards or something.

Then go rent Gracie in Action.

Then say "What the *beep*

Then realise there is a whole world out there today that actually train MMA/Vale Tudo.

And we are better than you, simply by NOT calling our trainers "sifu", "master" or "sensei". We don't get belts, we don't master spinning back kicks, we don't believe in ki. Simple as that. You're the nerds, we are the warriors.

This aint Revenge of the nerds!




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Break boards, tried that, had to call it a draw in the end, the board hurt my hand but it didn't fight back much.
I mentioned Gracie to my mega hard Karate friend (who can break boards with his head! How cool is that!)and to be fair he only had good things to say about him.
Although he did say there is a fine line between training for a competition where there are rules (even very few)and having to defend yourself against many attackers.
Going back to the subject of Tournament movies, it would be interesting to see if a movie based on MMA would encourage kids to part with their cash at the box office.

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Ok Everyone I'm here to stop the madness. Its time for a little dose of reality. This message is for those ppl who are arguing about whether certain styles like Taekwondo are better than styles used in the UFC. History lesson. Taekwono was created by General Choi, of korea and was a fusion of tae kyon techniques and traditional karate techniques. you don't believe that, just look at the stances in taekwando and karate. there are lots of similarities. This does not mean they are the same arts.

The high kicking of taekwando was influenced by the Hwarang warriors of Korea, they were like samurai, training in weapons, unarmed combat as well courtly manners and that type of thing. they trained by running in mountains and as a result had powerful leg muscles which encouraged them to use kicking techniques as kicks are the most powerful attacks available. The jumping kicks of taekwondo (am i spelling it right?) were used not for attacking ppl who are on the ground but for knocking fighters from horseback. Fighters would jump out of trees or from hidden positions to kick opponents off of their horse. The art of taekwondo has evolved over time and nowadays is best known by practitioners who train for sporting events. Taekwondo events nowadays are not full contact fights, or when they are the fighters wear heavy padding. UFC Fighters train to fight without padding, and fights are one primarily by sumbissions, chokes or knockouts while taekwondo fights are primarily won by points.


This is where the shock is for the close minded ppl who don't know their martial arts history, or basic fitness information. Training is arena specific. A UFC fighter will lose every time to a point fighter in point fighting competition and a point fighter will lose to UFC guys every time in UFC style competition. This does not make either of them a TRUE martial artist. Someone who dedicates themselves to their style and works hard is a martial artist. remember its Martial and its Art. Both UFC and Tradiational Martial Artists would lose to a well trained SAS, Marine or Special Forces man because these people are trained to kill.

Also here is a scenario for you, based loosely on a true story I read about in a local newspaper. I'm at the pub, with my friends having drinks when in walks a UFC fighter. I am a Kempo Karate student and I start arguing like you guys have about whether kempo guys can beat muay thai guys. i spit on him and we start fighting. i'm half pissed and getting beaten when my mates girlfriend takes her glass and smashes it into UFC mans face.

Now who is the better martial artist? UFC man was giving me more damage than I was giving him but is now in hospital with stitches. Who is a better fighter? I put it to you i would dominate in kempo competition if UFC man is untrained while he would dominate me in UFC. The real fighters nowadays are in the armed forces, that is air force, navy, and army. Throughout history these groups train primarily with weapons because the human body has a limited capacity to cause damage. The type of training these groups do in there unarmed combat is secondary, and relies on training to kill or to capture their opponent. Not to win trophies or belts. I currently train Chinese Kempo karate but can't mention the assosciation as its name is copyrighted. The style is neither chinese or japanese but an amalgamation of different arts and is based in america. I like it. It has highly stylised movements like those I see in movies and its method of delivering attacks is relatively unique. Would I like to get into some fights to test its effectiveness? Heck NO!!! before this I trained in a more MMA style martial art which u can see at this site

www.bobjonesmartialarts.com.au

Zen Do Kai

A mixture of thai boxing, BJJ, wrestling and katas from traditional karate. I got bored with it. The main sparring we did was Thai boxing style. To me it got old. The kempo style I train is less realistic, relies on fine muscle control which is something you lose when you're scared or undergoing extreme stress, and I enjoy it more than the old style I trained in. Before that I did 3& 1/2 years of tai chi. Definitely not for combat but fun, relaxing, good for flexibility and maintaining health into old age. I dropped that because I wanted something more intense.

To end im gonna quote people I've spoken to who have worked in the security industry as guards, bouncers etc. "When you get in a real fight technique goes out the window. What it comes down to is can you act. Can you handle bein thrown up against a wall, have someone screaming in your face, spitting on you, bleeding on you" etc.

Most of the people I have spoken to have left the industry even ppl who survived fights like this didn't like going through this. Again only people who train for that type of stress are in the armed forces. So In closing. If you want to experience real combat, become a soldier. If you want to get into street fights, join a gang. If don't like either of these options then maybe traditional martial arts or martial arts schools that don't have contact fighting will have something to offer you still. Doesn't matter if its McDojo. If you like it go for it. If you don't try to respect people who do. But bashing ppl with comments like taekwondo/ Karate/ (Insert your style Here) is better than (style from UFC,MMA competition etc) is just an exercise in imagination. The main thing to remember is training martial arts won't guarentee your safety. The story I told above shows thats its possible to get severely hurt reguardless of if you are a world champion, or a small town white belt. We'd all drop when that glass hits our head.

What I really want is for you guys to respect everyone elses choice reguardless to whether you agree to it, but also to realise that none of you, or me are "real" warriors, so there's no point being a HERO and acting like it!!!!

YOU! INVADERS! GET YOU THE HOT BULLETS OF SHOTGUN TO DIE!!!

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By the way, how long was my last message? Did i mention I'm Aussie?

YOU! INVADERS! GET YOU THE HOT BULLETS OF SHOTGUN TO DIE!!!

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Jeepers mister, that was one long reply!
You sound like you know what you're talking about, do you train with weapons in your style, like swords and nunchucks?
You said that soldiers are the best fighters, what martial art do they do? Do you think it's better than Karate?

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I think you've made several good points

I think what people often mistake martial arts as a guaranteed safety net that will immediately become of use after several weeks, years of training...martial arts isn't about becoming the best, and becoming untouchable. If you have that mentality, then you shouldn't be in martial arts in the first place.

The entire argument of strikers and grapplers and who is the best...all bull...I've come to realize that what makes you an effective martial artist is dedication, commitment, hard work and most importantly, proper judgement, honour, control, and modesty.

An old Chinese saying says, "One mountain will always be higher than the other"
Basically saying, no matter how good you think you are, someone in the world is probably better than you...this is a fact that you have to accept. Even if you win some bull title, "heavyweight of the world", there's someone out there training twice as hard as you, twice as long as you, that is better or becoming better than you. Of course, you would think you would have to believe it on faith, but it's a possibility that is not far fetched, whether you like it or not.

There's no point in saying who's better, what style is better, who would beat who...just go with a discipline that makes you feel good about yourself, and dedicate yourself to it. If you want to use it for self defense, then work ahrd at it - but don't complain and blame the martial itself if it doesn't work. It just means you're not at that level yet. The worst thing to do it give up.

Bottom line, think what you want, but you should try and accept the facts of life now - before it's too late and you try too hard to prove yourself, and you will have to realize it the hard way.

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Re: Tournament movies?
by - Pixtonchuck on Mon Dec 18 2006 07:14:52
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Jeepers mister, that was one long reply!
You sound like you know what you're talking about, do you train with weapons in your style, like swords and nunchucks?
You said that soldiers are the best fighters, what martial art do they do? Do you think it's better than Karate?


Pixtonchuck, in the kempo style I train in we train empty hand until blackbelt, then we have the option of learning stick fighting, most of which is ripped off off of philippino (is that the spelling) stick/knife/axe fighting. Nowadays learning swordsmanship is not applicable to self defense as you can't carry swords, or any weapon for that matter legally, without a licence in most countries, and swords are less usefule than firearms, hence the army focuses on the use of these weapons. Some special forces units use knives in their training and in the field, but the exact ways they go about it arn't accessible to civillians.

One of the points I tried to make in my previous long message was that most martial arts were created under conditions that are not around and for purposes that may not be applicable today ie kendo. Great in the days of the samurai, not so great in the middle of a nightclub late at night when a friend gets rowdy.


This should have answered your question about karate and soldiers but i'll add some more. The systems soldiers train in are designed for killing or capturing their opponents and full - time soldiers use their skills. Modern karate began with Gichi Funakoshi (sorry if mispelt) and that training occurs primarily in the controlled environment of the dojo or in competitions which are still controlled environments due to the rules. I claim a soldier would win because their trained to act under the extreme stress of real confrontations, and will seek to kill their opponent or to render them unable to fight in another way.

Here's a story of a cousin of mine. He got in a fight at a new years party sevearal years ago. He'd trained in Go Kan Ryu. Because he wasn't used to fighting under stress he didn't use any of his Go Kan Ryu techniques or stances and his first punch actually missed his opponent because he'd been trained in non-contact sparring and was in the habit of pulling strikes short of the target. ie strike stops 1 cm from nose chest groin whatever.

So here's a scenario. Person K gets in a fight with a guy in the special forces, Person N. Person K's training is in a striking style that trains non contact sparring. Person N has battle experience using his training to kill people, knock them unconcious or cripple them. They fight.... who will win?

I won't bother to answer its so obvious. (note Person K has minimal experience in real fights.)

YOU! INVADERS! GET YOU THE HOT BULLETS OF SHOTGUN TO DIE!!!

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Thanks very much for that. I asked my Karate friend what he thought of this and he said that he agreed with some of the points, but he also said that he has been in fights with marines and squaddies (both before and after his training)and he said that some were pretty tough and some weren't, so I'm guessing that it is down to the individual.
On the other hand though he said that he found fighting loads easier after his Karate training, even if he didn't use all the moves, so now I don't know what to think.

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Thanks very much for that. I asked my Karate friend what he thought of this and he said that he agreed with some of the points, but he also said that he has been in fights with marines and squaddies (both before and after his training)and he said that some were pretty tough and some weren't, so I'm guessing that it is down to the individual.
On the other hand though he said that he found fighting loads easier after his Karate training, even if he didn't use all the moves, so now I don't know what to think.

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i agree pixtonchuck, i have some friends who do martial arts and others that dont, and to be honest some are harder and havent any training whatsoever. for instance my mate BAZZER can get anyone and i mean anyone in a head lock and give them the biggest noogie of all time, while my mate RAZOR is a black belt in karate and he can smash through rock. so in answer to your question of whats the best cereal i'd have to say captain crunch.

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I've heard of a bloke called Razer and if its the same guy he can't be the hardest guy ever coz I heard this other bloke called Tugboat gave him a chinese burn down the park. On the cereal note I'd go with Cinnamon Toast Crunch, sets you up for the day.

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Thanks chaps, that doesn't really help me at all.
What style does Tugboat do? Has he ever fought anyone that knows Karate or another martial art, or are you just making it up?

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Have you never heard of Tugboat?!?! He's like the 3rd best in the whole of Somerset in Rex Quon Do, his chinese burns are legendary. And he taught himself everything he knows.

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LIAR. we've heard about Tugboat over here. He taught himself everything else he knew AFTER he defeated Rex of Rex Qwon Do. He realised then that he had almost nothing to learn. He spent a few years wondering the country with Kwai Chan Kane and he trained for a while in Australia wrestiling crocodiles and dodging Drop Bears in the Northern Territory. After his experiences travelling and living in the wild he moved back to america where he now works in chinatown as a waiter. And if you think his chinese burns are bad you should have seen the red belly he pulled on a croc in darwin!!!!!



YOU! INVADERS! GET YOU THE HOT BULLETS OF SHOTGUN TO DIE!!!

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Finally...the first fricken' intelligent response I've heard.

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TKW is mostly useless in a real fight or mma.
It does have some good kicks, but really no good strikes. I sparred with TKW guys when i was in Kenpo and they were quite weak. But mma proved that there are only about 4 or 5 styles that will work in a real life fight. Boxing,Kickboxing(muay thai),bjj, and wrestling, and also judo to round things out. Jet li has also said any of the ufc guys would kick his ass in real life. It might be cool to start out with TWK but you need to be well rounded in all aspects of practical fighting to be a good and or great fighter.

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I would like to see them come back! love the sub-genre!

Prostitute: What the *beep* are you doing?
Johnny: I'm gonna kill a bunch of people.

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This thread fails. Walls of text which has NOTHING to do with the OP's question...

Back on track, yeah I would love to see some of the tournament-esque martial art films back in vogue. If they could do what they are doing/did with The Expendables (gather a lot of the action heroes of the 80s/90s but martial artists instead) and instead of a run-and-gun action film make a tournament film that would be great.

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