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Thoughts on the martial arts moves in response to some of the arguments

posted 14 years ago by clubhonda
4 replies | jump to latest

Its funny how different the moves look when you revisit the movie 15 years after first watching it! I gave it a 10 back then when I thought that these moves were the most awesome and realistic out of a mainstream martial arts movie. I recently rewatched the movie again and its amazing how time can really change one's perspectives. Don't get me wrong, I still think the movie deserves a 10 just for teaching the right values, and the realistic portrayal of human emotions like fear before a fight (I've fought quite a few tournaments myself). Today, I see so many openings in the way the moves are made, they would be very vulnerable if imitated. Its quite true when they say that martial arts is a journey...

15 years ago I was training in TKD, San Da, and Southern Shaolin kung fu and back then I thought they were the greatest. Then the first few UFC fights blew away my mind and I struggled and resisted for a long time before throwing in the towel and learnt BJJ. I started working on Judo, BJJ, and also worked on stand up with kickboxing since then. All I can say is, when I'm not watching the drama but the actual moves pulled in the fights in the competition, I go.. what?? Back then I thought they were awesome and realistic, but with today's experience, they are full of holes. Of course to be fair, this movie is still one of the more realistic in its portrayal of a karate-type competition, but fans who think that they can kick ass in fights if they can do such moves as so many have claimed in the other threads need to learn to temper their expectations.

We have made so much progress within the last ten years in martial arts that today if you tell me that one style can beat them all, I will tell you that it is *beep* If you ask me for my opinion on what constitutes the strongest fighter, that person needs kickboxing/muay thai/boxing for the stand up game, wresting/judo for the takedowns/anti-takedowns, and BJJ is absolutely essential for the ground game. Anything missing and you're an incomplete fighter.

I started out and worked for a long time on traditional Chinese martial arts but I see it for what it is, and I am flabbergasted how some students of Chinese martial arts or even karate or TKD think they are the greatest, even though I am Chinese myself. They are not.

And with the big money being thrown into UFC and BJJ, I think we are going to see even more evolutions that will be very exciting. Traditional martial arts like Karate and TKD, Wing Chun, etc will become more and more of an art form rather than an actual effecive martial arts especially if everyone cross-trains in the multi-mma disciplines. Unless they evolve as well, they will become more of a legacy of history rather than a real fighting art.

[–] cyguration 14 years ago

Interesting thoughts on the subject matter.

As much as I would like to disagree with you on EVERYTHING, I actually agree that sadly the art form of many martial arts are just that...an art form.

I remember recently rewatching Best of the Best and noticing how -- despite being somewhat realistic to the tournament style of fighting -- we don't see any of those kind of techniques in any current day full contact tournaments.

The sad reality is that the neanderthalic fighting of the UFC/Strikeforce is considered "real fighting" for today's generation...even though in reality most of it consist of tackling a guy and punching his face in before either opponent gets too winded to either tackle or punch. I consider UFC and most cage fighting the bottom of the barrel in the art form of fighting itself...it's classless and very unrefined.

I used to enjoy watching some Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Judo masters, though, using the gi to strategically and tactically leverage an advantage during a fight, but that's all sort of tossed out the window nowadays for tackle+ground and pound.

I am curious, though, are there any full-contact sports like UFC that focus more on traditional martial arts such as Wing Chun, Wu Shu, Kenpo or Akido? Or for that matter, any mixed martial arts tournaments that actually retain the "art" form of fighting?

[–] mindstamina3000 14 years ago

Many UFC fighters that don't have a Collegiate Wrestling background and are not Brazilian with a BJJ background since childhood are trained in Traditional Martial Arts and have the skillset to pull off fancy TMA moves but when reality hits you in the face in a fight especially when facing a grappler than those moves will easily become neutralized.

Anderson Silva who is arguably the bets P4P fighter today has a blackbelt in Taekwondo and has trained in Capoeira but he mostly uses Western Boxing and Muay Thai in the cage. They are more effective in getting a knock out and leaving yourself able to defend takedowns due to not being vulnerable from throwing many kicks.

Karate is more power based like Kenpo which Liddell has successfully applied in MMA. If you noticed his punches when he was getting KOs left and right, he would land vertically with his knuckles and his punches would ceom from his hip like it is thrown in a traditional Karate stance. However once he started fighting fighters with good boxer who can counter his punches while using head movements, he became more beatable.

Machida uses the more elusive style of Karate which is Shotokan which is competed in a point system but recently his Shotokan is finally being neutralize by Boxers and Muay Thai fighters who figure how to cut him off and apply power when catching him on the inside pocket.

Kyokushin is extremely affected though for full contact freestyle competition but needs Boxing to be included in it as the legendary Andy Hug once stated himself.

[–] Herreken 14 years ago

The fight scenes in this movie are like most fight scenes in any movie: careful choreography. They look great but the moves they pull off are rarely executed so perfectly in real fights...certainly not MMA.

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[–] Robbmonster 14 years ago

I don't know whether or not this is the case, but it seems to be that 'traditional' martial arts often pride themselves on teaching the philosophical - for lack of a better word - side of Martial Arts (the use of the word 'arts' is not accidental, by the way), while MMA is more about finding the most effective ways to kick the crap out of someone.

MMA is a combat artform, as opposed to a style of self-defence (which, of course, it can be used for), where the emphasis is on putting an opponent of near to equal size and skill out of commission. Of course there isn't one style that can beat them all, there is quite simply no way to prove this except through some kind of computer simulation, because there are just too many variables from form to form.

Many people aren't as concerned about becoming a 'complete fighter' as they are about far simpler goals like self respect, self-defence, and basic fitness. That said, the trend now definitely seems to be - like you said - that traditional forms are likely to become relics of the past, and more appreciated for their philosophical and mental aspects rather than as forms of combat, which is certainly no bad thing at all. One thing it means is that dojo's will become far less places where people come to learn to kick ass (of which there are far too many in my area) and more places where people will come for more 'gentle' reasons.

Lastly, when you see martial arts in movies, don't think of it as fighting, think of it as dancing. It's as choreographed and carefully timed as any broadway musical. Some movies just manage to do it better than others. I haven't seen The Best of the Best in over 15 years, so it might be worth revisiting.

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