Just curious who would have sat there and taken that abuse. I guess if you had a six figure job you would take it, but those salesman probably did not make much for all the stress they had. There is getting a standard chew out from a boss, then there is the Baldwin put the coffee down chew out. Would you guys sit there and let him make a fool out of you, especially considering there is a 90% chance you are going to get fired anyways?
shareSimply sitting there and listening you aren't being made a fool of. If Roma had been in the room, he may have sat there without a word and would be entertained by the whole thing.
More to the point, would I sit there and take it. That depends on many factors. If you really thought this guy was helpful, you would listen to it, ask good questions and try to cut through it.
But in that scene, he isn't their boss. They never heard of him, and he was simply a guest speaker there. That being the case, it's like those workshops in large corporations where they bring in someone from the outside to shake everyone up. Sure, you can get upset about it and yell back, but in reality they will be leaving pretty soon and you will never see them again.
I am not in defense of Blake (Alex Baldwin's character), but if you watch that scene over again very closely you will notice that he doesn't come in there with the intention of being a jerk. Yes, he is all business and isn't happy about being there, but being a good salesman he has already reviewed the employment records and sales figures of their staff. Notice he can pick out who he is talking to just by how they present themselves and their demeanor. He figured out quickly who Shelly was and Moss without even being introduced. So Blake is giving them a chance to listen to him and learn so he isn't wasting his time there, but they don't look that interested and Shelly gets up to get coffee without even paying attention to what is being said. Shelly in his mind he has heard all this before and knows it isn't going to be useful from his prospective so he doesn't show an interest. To someone like Blake, he likely came in there with the attitude I'm going to tell these guys what they need to do and how to do it, but if they don't show me the respect and attention, I'm going to let them have it.
So from Blake's thinking, Shelly didn't show interest and then complains about the leads being weak. So Blake isn't going to tell him how to handle the leads to better qualify them or how to get better leads, he's going to give it to him cause he sees all of them as losers there.
Why do they sit there and take it? Cause deep down they know they deserve it. The example of this is why they are more interested in selling the stolen good leads than using them to sell because they know in their gut they simply aren't as good at their job as they claim to be.
"You don't like it, leave."
People used to let their bosses talk to them that way. They didn't have a choice. No one said life was easy. Nowadays some poor man or woman might get offended. We can't have that!!! Let's give everyone a set of steak knives and a trophy.
Just think of it like the military: They aren't yelling at ME; they're yelling at US.
That way, you can blow it off easier.
Responsible people don't go around getting their nipples twisted!!!
People with any sense of self-respect don't let others walk on them either. Some motivation-guy comes to your place of business and yells that you're a loser, a *beep* *beep* a son of a bitch and personally demeans you in front of your co-workers? My answer to your comment is "I'm not in the military anymore. Curse me out and chew on me in front of my co-workers and you'll soon be looking at an empty seat."
When Blake yelled, "You certainly don't, pal, 'cause the good news is you're fired!" Id be up, loading my briefcase and gone before he had a chance to say anything else.'
"An Archer is known by his aim, not by his arrows."
-Li Chen-Sung (Richard Loo) The Outer Limits
You always have that choice - but then you would also be unemployed. And you DON'T get to choose whether or not to pay your bills.
What I would do?
Take my licks and get better at my job.
That's where there is success and there are quitters.
There will always be people too weak to overcome challenges or strife.
It think it shows a total lack of self-respect to let some hot shot bully you out of your job.
To me it shows utter cowardice to sit with head bowed and let some arrogant, toilet mouthed bastard treat you as if you're subhuman. Not leaving under those circumstances shows a lack of self-respect because you're showing that being bullied and metaphorically spat-upon is perfectly okay with you. Such people value the paycheck over worth as a human being. So you'd be unemployed? I recently got fired from a job and I was back at work within a month.
"There will always be people too weak to overcome challenges or strife."
There will always be cowards with no self-respect who put their paycheck before anything else in life.
"It think it shows a total lack of self-respect to let some hot shot bully you out of your job."
Right-- the old "You let him run you off out of a job." The people I've heard say that were always the ones too job-scared to go somewhere else. So they just hung-on.
"An Archer is known by his aim, not by his arrows."
-Li Chen-Sung (Richard Loo) The Outer Limits
Let me give you some frame of reference.
I currently run an insurance appraisal company I started at 24 years old which is now in multiple states and creates jobs for at least 12 people who all make great money.
I still have clients that when my people or myself make a mistake will excoriate me over the phone or publicly at a meeting even though I make something in the neighborhood of 400-500K a year after expenses.
I take my licks like I said and move on and salvage the relationship with the client.
At the end of the day I am the one laughing because I can afford whatever I want and have many people that look up to me for my accomplishments.
If I was to get all tough guy on the phone or in person and try to "keep it real" they would drop me and find another appraisal company.
I am not a coward. I am not lacking in self-respect. I raise 5 kids and am in the best shape of my life at 30 years old.
How can you explain that away?
I don't put my paychecks first - I put my people first - but I wouldn't roll over and quit because I didn't like how someone talked to me.
I live in a world where you won't always be pampered and catered to. A world in which you will vehemently disagree with people and have to bite your tongue sometimes. A world where it is hard and cold and you have to earn your place.
It's just my opinion man.
Money isn't everything but in this country at this point in time - it makes a helluva lot of difference. You have to play the game.
"How can you explain that away?"
I'm not in the business of explaining things away. You are correct concerning your frame of reference-- it is yours, not mine. There is nothing to "explain away."
As to me, I'm 56 years old and have worked in industry ever since leaving military service. I'm satisfied with menial labor. I haven't an envious bone in my body. You make hundreds of thousands a year? You're in the best shape you've ever been in at 30 years? Great. You have five lovely children? I've never wanted any, but that's fine, too.
"It's just my opinion man."
Since you're writing on a message board, I kind of realized that.
"An Archer is known by his aim, not by his arrows."
-Li Chen-Sung (Richard Loo) The Outer Limits
You're 56 now, and had a career in the military ... and no one ever spoke to you like that without you quitting?
How'd you stay out of the brig?
In the military you have no choice. That's why they make you sign a contract and swear an oath. You go in knowing that you must put up with so much rubbish, including that sort of tail-chewing. Incidentally, I wouldn't call my 8 years in a career.
In the civilian world, typically, none of that applies. You can leave a job if you think your treatment is unreasonable. If a boss wants to try that rule by threats/rule by fear stuff, he's playing with the future of his company.
And as to your question, no, I never went to the brig. I never so much as got written up for needing a haircut. In fact, I was a military policeman for fifteen months.
"An Archer is known by his aim, not by his arrows."
-Li Chen-Sung (Richard Loo) The Outer Limits
Bear in mind, these men are not legitimate real estate salesmen. They're con-men working for a con artist company, selling worthless swamp land for far more than it's worth. It's not like they can file a complaint with anybody, and if they were to balk at the abusive treatment that they get, they will just be fired, no question.
Also, I would argue that one of them (Dave Moss) doesn't just "sit there and take it." He actually speaks up and antagonizes Blake, which to me is a realistic reaction from someone who doesn't want to be spoken to that way, but who is also worried about getting fired.
[deleted]
So, just because you are thin-skinned, you think that means you have more dignity and self-respect than someone who could brush off an insult that is part of their job?
You're happy with menial labour, wouldn't call eight years in the military a career, and have no idea what it would be like to work in a sales environment.
If you couldn't take a business consultant being mean to you, you obviously couldn't take a client or prospective sale being mean to you. You don't have the "brass balls" described by Baldwin's character and would fail at a sales role.
I currently run an insurance appraisal company I started at 24 years old. I still have clients that when my people or myself make a mistake will excoriate me over the phone or publicly at a meeting
"To me it shows utter cowardice to sit with head bowed and let some arrogant..."
There lies the difference. No one can make a fool out of you without their permission. If while you sit there, your inner dialogue is that this is some more nonsense from the company that you don't buy into or believe, then it means nothing to you so you ignore it. But if you really believe what is being said to you, then it would cause you to sit there with your head bowed and be hurt by it. If you are hurt by it, you can push back and say something or decide this job isn't for you.
The other thing to remember is that these people are subjected to this kind of talk from each other on a daily basis, so it doesn't really have the same meaning as if you were sitting at your desk in an accounting office processing payroll and to have someone come in there and call you a loser. That would be totally unexpected and out of character and most certainly not acceptable.
People leave companies all the time if they don't like the way they are being treated. But it's a rash thing to just jump up from your seat and leave. In fact, the person running those workshops knows exactly what they are doing and by you doing that it just makes an example out of you. They use it to rally the rest of them, so you would be giving them what they want that you can't take the heat so you left the kitchen. Besides if their true mission is to thin the heard, then you just made their job easier and if you quit you don't get a severance package, and you just made it much harder on yourself cause you are out of a job and you can't tell why you quit cause it will make you look bad to the new prospective employer.
No one can make a fool out of you without their permission.
It's a brilliant quote. If you don't think so, then you truly don't understand it.
shareIt's not brilliant when it's misquoted. It should be:
No one can make a fool out of you without your permission.
Not
No one can make a fool out of you without their permission. <<< This sounds ridiculous.
_
Every person that served can be called a veteran, but not every veteran can be called a Marine.
When some behavior at the office endorsed by management is so over-the-top like this, it's best to ignore it if you can't find any value in it and then look for another job if you so strongly object to it. I have seen too many company "meetings" to take any of them seriously. No one at any company really knows you well enough to form any sort of opinion in my view that it should impact your self worth, because there is so much bad management out there.
shareI worked in high end auto sales, on the finance side of the business. I have always drawn inspiration from this particular scene because I am in the 1% of my business that makes 90% of the income. I guess you could say I am one of the 'Blakes' (but without the stunning good looks and perfect hair...lol). I wear a watch worth more than most my employees cars, and pull into work in a $90-120k car every morning depending on what I decide to pull off the lot. I got to where I was after sitting through a berating not dissimilar to the one Blake goes off on, and instead of sulking and feeling sorry for myself, I came out of it wanting to prove that a-hole wrong, and become him. I went to him for advice, excelled to the top of my game, banked the proceeds, and made a few smart and one majorly beneficial investment, (AAPL anyone? lol) along the way. All with his advice.
17 years later, I am 40 and now a major competitor of the guy that handed it to me that day, own a dealership of my own, and a couple pretty tidy little real estate investments and looking to expand. I have gone for lunch with him many times, and run into him a lot just through general business, and I have always told him, that day was the turning point in my life. I was humiliated, embarrassed and emasculated, and never wanted to sit through another meeting like that again.
Nowadays, you cannot get away with that type of motivation through emasculation speech. Everyone in the last 20 years has been raised being told how special and unique they are. They participate in sports where we no longer keep score, and hand out participant ribbons to anyone that shows up. There are very few of my employees I will ever be truly harsh with, but the ones I do, are usually the ones that I see potential in, and want to see succeed.
You can take a lot of things away from harsh criticism. But most people that are successful, take motivation from it.
Baldwin can say whatever the hell he wants to say. It seems Capital One will never fire his hateful disgusting ass.
shareHaha ... only a senior sales person would think Blake is a hero for that scene.
shareonly a senior sales person would think Blake is a hero for that scene
There's a blog posting that actually makes a decent case for Baldwin's speech NOT being "abuse" so much as a "get pumped" pep talk:
http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/11/hipsters_on_food_stamps.html
It's clearly not Mamet's intent to portray Blake as a hero or inspiration (probably not Alec Baldwin's intent, either), but the blogger has a point. A hungry salesman in need of a push could take Blake's speech as a signal to "get mad" and get hustling.
I took it as a pep talk as well. The only thing that I thought crossed the line was when he started bragging about his income and basically told them they were nothing because they didn't make as much as he did.
shareHe had to brag about his income because none of them knew who he was. He had to mention the income to make a point with them that he knew what he was talking about because he's more successful than they are. As for telling them they are nothing, that's just his opinion. It doesn't make it so.
shareUm, he called them *beep* f*aggots ... pep talk?
shareInteresting question. Sad to say I'm one of the ones who would sit and take it. Jobs are hard to come by at the moment, and I wish to hang on to mine. If that means tolerating a bit of smarmy name-calling, so be it.
Never defend crap with "It's just a movie"
http://www.youtube.com/user/BigGreenProds
It would be hard for me personally to take any of that seriously what goes on in that meeting if I was an employee there. If they wanted to fire people, they would just fire them, they didn't need someone to come in and waste time with them. So the reason to do it was to motivate them. I'm not saying I agree with their method, but it might work with lazy crooks working for a crooked outfit.
shareA business with a boss like that should be reported to the Better Business Bureau. No I wouldn't let him treat me like that. I'd rip off his brass balls, melt down the metal and reform it as a hood ornament on my Hyundai.
shareDepends on how much they are paying me. I could handle the "abuse" if I had a great income. But I would say, "fu** this I am out of here!!!" if I was making squat. I think the "sales contest" game them a little incentive though to stay at least until it was over. And then there is the family issue, if I had a family to take care of then maybe I would stay(at least until I found a new job.)
share