MovieChat Forums > Spider-Man (1994) Discussion > The show in hindsight.

The show in hindsight.

posted 13 years ago by TheMarvel
15 replies | jump to latest

This was, and still is, my favorite animated series ever made. Yes, I'm a fanboy of the show, and dream of the day it gets properly released on dvd. However, I'm having a blast revisiting the show on Netflix. I have noticed a couple gaps in logic that I never noticed before (which I find amusing) and my overall opinion on certain seasons has only slightly altered.

Originally I thought season 3 was the best season, and looking back, I feel that's only partially true. It definitely has the best episodes of the entire series, but as a whole season, there are a few unfortunate turds. For one, the first 3 episodes are largely filler, and the Dr. Strange episode is an incredibly weak opener for such a fantastic second half of the season. I think the best overall season is probably 2, the Neogenic Nightmare. It remains consistent quality, and the only gripe is that Morbius shouldn't have been in that many episodes. However, they really made it work, and I love the tri-conflict between Spider-Man, his disease, Morbius, and the Punisher.

Speaking of Morbius, here are some those logic-gaps I mentioned earlier:

-Spider-Man wants to help Morbius, yet he always approaches him with aggression

-Spider-Man witnesses Morbius turn back into a human during the day, so why doesn't he ever hunt him down then? It never dawns on him to use his spider-tracers for Morbius. During one of their fights, he could've attached one to him, then found him during the day as a helpless human and captured him. Guess he wouldn't be much of a villain if Spider-Man took him down this way, lol.

-Similarly, Scorpion wants to cure himself and turn back into a normal human. Why the hell doesn't Spider-Man or Professor Stillwell cooperate? Stillwell's nightmares would go away, and it would be so easy to capture plain old human Mac Gargan. But instead they keep him that way, so who's the REAL villain here? (lol)

-The Spot steals a truck load of cash, but Spider-Man suddenly forgives and forgets this detail when he realizes Spot just wants to save his girlfriend Sylvia. I guess if you're "clearly no killer" then it's okay to rob a bank.

-Also, Spot's "fate" makes absolutely no sense. He creates and controls portals, yet one that got too big kills him? Why? And if that's true, how the hell did his machine survive? I like to speculate about this and think that the Spot never actually died, but traveled somewhere else, like Paris or something. He realizes that his technology is too dangerous and chucks it into a portal and leaves it there thinking nobody would find it(hence how it came back in Goblin War). Then he lays low with Sylvia enjoying life without "money grubbing fatheads" like Kingpin. It's the only thing that makes sense to me, and this show never truly kills anybody, unless you're a clone.

I'm sure there's more, but I felt like sharing. :)

[–] topherwriter 13 years ago

There's one episode where Spider-Man goes against a bunch of crocodile mutants who see that Dr. guy who is a reptile mutant (I can't remember his name right now) as their father. The doctor tells his wife that she has to use this machine which will only affect mutants affected by neogenics. It ends up being modified to where they will simply de-evolve into what they were. What makes no sense though is when they use it it only affects the crocodiles, but Spider-Man still has his powers.

[–] GreenGoblinsOckVenom86 13 years ago

Another flaw is at the end of the second season Dr. Curt Conners/Lizard removes Spider-Man's mutation and puts it in Vulture who becomes a flying monster. Yet later when they show Vulture again he no longer has that mutation.

"Time to die! Like a man!" Venom Spider-Man Web of Shadows

[–] TheMarvel 13 years ago

yes, this is the #1 plot hole I've always had a problem with. Even in the episode where he returns, there's a flashback of Vulture as the man-spider, yet no explanation whatsoever how he got cured. I just speculate that it had something to do with the tablet of time powers he had, but it still bugs me.

Some other holes I've noticed:

-Smythe is an idiot and an a-hole. First of all, he's one of the few villains who actually had Spider-Man at his complete mercy in Return of the Spider Slayers. I'm talking about when Smythe had Spidey and Jameson tied together to a bomb. Why didn't Smythe just take off his mask or just, I dunno, kill him right there? Also, in no way is it Spider-Man's fault that his father, Spencer, went missing. (Spider-Man actually points this out)

-But it gets worse. Smythe is reunited with his frozen father all thanks to Spider-Man. But when we see him in season 4, Smythe hates Spider-Man all over again because he...works for Silvermane? How, exactly, can Silvermane help revive Spencer? If all Smythe needs is money, why not just steal it like all other villains? I'm over thinking though. Smythe is a huge jerk.

-Kraven is also an unappreciative jerk. In The Return of Kraven, instead of seeking Spidey's help to track down Mariah Crawford (in feral form) he decides to break into the Hardy Foundation, steal and drink the vial that turned him into Kraven, and then practically LIE to Spider-Man about what happened. He basically tells Spider-Man Dr. Crawford is freaking DEAD, but oh wait, we find out moments later that Kraven was talking in dramatic poetry? What a jackass. That's like telling someone you have cancer, only to then say "just kidding" afterwards. Thanks a lot Kraven. Next time, just ask Spider-Man for HELP, especially considering he kinda owes you and Dr. Crawford a lifetime after reversing the Man-Spider disease.

I do still love this show. I will post more later as I finish up watching this on Netflix. :)

[–] JannTosh 13 years ago

Finally. Someone else who likes this show too. It seems like I was the only one! LOL. Anyway, I agree that this was a good show. Were there some bad episodes? Yes. Some cheesy moments and logic errors? Yes. But that doesn't make this show bad at all. There were lots great episodes and great character development. Peter/Spider-Man is a great, interesting character in this show. In fact, he's probably the most likeable and interesting hero in any superhero cartoon. This show supporting characters in this show were also great. Almost everybody received some development. Even characters like Debra Whitman, Flash Thompson, and Robbie Robertson. Also, introducing characters like Norman Osborn, Felicia Hardy, and Eddie Brock well in advance of them becoming their alter egos was a masterstroke. A lot of people complain about the Hobgoblin coming before the Green Goblin but they make it work here. The Hobgoblin episode, in addition to being a great episode and having a great villain, added a lot to Norman Osborns character.

interestingly I thought Harry and Mary Jane were two of the most least interesting characters on the show, Harry especially. His stint as the Goblin was pretty poorly done I must admit.

I think Season 1, 2, and 3 are all equally good. Season 4 and 5 were kind of disappointing but still had enough good episodes. The five part "Six Forgotten Warriors" story arc in Season 5 is amazing. I personally have no problem with the first two episodes of Season 3, though the "Octo Bot" episode was pretty bad mainly due to that horribly annoying cab driver!

I didn't mind Morbius in Season 2 since he fit with the story well, but bringing him back in Season 4 was just too much

The absolute worst episode of the show was "The Vampire Queen" no doubt. Ugh! Absolutely terrible!

I also think the show was more mature than people give it credit for. Many like to dismiss it as a kiddy show, sure it had the terrible censorship, but a lot of the writing and moments were definitely not kiddy. This is no "Kim Possible" type show at all.

I like Smythe. He may be an *beep* but I love his voice, and like his style. He loves technology and robots!

[–] TheMarvel 13 years ago

Always good to see a fellow fan. :) Totally agree about the show being way more mature than most give it credit for. There are some very adult themes and the show actually gets really dark in the later seasons. I still find it amazing how they got around all those ridiculous censorship rules and still pulled off such an amazing show. The Punisher might be an extremely watered down version here, but I thought he was awesome. And even though I pointed out some logic gaps with Smythe, he's actually one of my favorite characters, regardless. I also loved the Hobgoblin. I don't care that he came before Green Goblin, because frankly they are two separate characters and they made it work. Hobs might have came first, but Green had by far the best episode in the entire series, "Turning Point." Fantastic season closer.

Speaking of Turning Point: this episode essentially mirrors a similar story in the comic where Green Goblin has Gwen Stacy on top of that bridge, and she falls off. Spidey catches her with a webline, but she's dead when he pulls her up, leaving Spider-Man extremely guilt-stricken and unsure if he's to blame or the goblin. To get around actual "death" in this show (again, crap censorship rules) they use the portal storyline. Even though Green Goblin and Mary Jane fall into that portal, they're essentially dead. Think about it. They never actually come back into the show, and Green Goblin appearing to Harry as an apparition could be analyzed as him going crazy, but now I'm overthinking things.

Vampire Queen as the worst episode? Not to me. Miriam is a terrible villain and extremely annoying, but I liked the end of the episode where Black Cat leaves Spider-Man behind. It's a great character moment for her, and that alone makes the episode decent in my book. Personally, I hate The Wedding episode, and the two parter in season 4 where Spider-Man reveals his identity to Mary Jane (the clone). Which leads me to one of the most disturbing logic-holes this show probably has:

-After Peter proposes, Mary Jane...tries to commit suicide by jumping off a building just so she could prove to herself that he'd be there for her?! Yeesh. I gotta tell ya, if some woman acted that way to me, I'd be extremely concerned. Deal breaker, folks. :P

One more point that you touched on...MaryJane is not very interesting, I agree. Some episodes hint at a much deeper background (abusive father) but the show never explores that fully (and when it tries to, it's in ridiculous episodes like Dr Strange and Haunting of MJ). I actually found Felicia to be much more interesting, especially when she becomes the Black Cat. But I digress.

[–] TheMarvel 13 years ago

also, my poking fun at the logic gaps is just for fun. In no way does it make me like the show less. I'll love this series until the day I die.

More people seem to like Spectacular Spider-Man better. I have to admit, I think that's a fantastic show as well, but considering it's premature cancellation, it'll only go down as the animated series that could've been so much more. I'll give it one big token of credit though. That shows depiction of Norman Osborne is leaps and bounds better than 90's version. Spectacular's Osborne is a cold hearted bad ass, while 90's Osborne is really whiney and wimpy.

Both shows are great, but this one really touched me.

[–] JannTosh 13 years ago

I do have a feeling this show is not as hated as it seems though. It seems pretty popular on Youtube. They really should release the entire series on DVD so people can see it in all its glory, it would probably sell very well

Norman Osborn may have been kind of wimpy, but I still liked him, mainly because he was voiced by Neil Ross, who was perfect in the role, he also had a lot of good moments in the Hobgoblin 2 parter

I agree that Felicia Hardy/Black Cat was by far a better character than Mary Jane. Felicia Hardy from her first appearance was a more appealing character. I would rather Spider-Man and Black Cat had hooked up instead of Spider-Man and Mary Jane! Hell even character like Flash Thompson and Debra Whitman had more interest than Mary Jane and Harry.

I hate the Vampire Queen because not only because of the terrible villain, but by that point I was getting sick of Morbius and vampires and "plasma" sucking. This episode was just too much. It felt like a really bad soap opera. Also, I hate that Black Cat went with Morbius in the end! It's kind of dumb, but I wanted Spider-Man and Black Cat together and wanted them to be a team and that idiot Morbius ruined that! LOL

I didn't mind the Haunting or Lizard King episodes too much, though they are some of the weaker episodes of the show. Though Mysterio is cool in IMO.

I also like the Doctor Strange episode. Mainly because Mordo is voiced by Tony freaking Jay! He was almost like an animated version of Saruman from Lord of the Rings. I also think Dormammu is an epic villain. Also, I like the episodes surprisingly realistic portrayal (excluding the magic part of course!) of a cult and how it brainwashes people.

Also, the censorship, while annoying and stupid, wasn't as annoying as it could have been. Death was implied a ridiculous amount of times in the series

[–] TheMarvel 13 years ago

In hindsight, I have to say one of the funniest things about Morbius is how he was censored. He wasn't allowed to bite necks and drink blood like your standard vampire. Instead, he drank plasma, and through...throbbing suction cups on his hands? If you ask me, that's far more disgusting than neck biting! lol.

So I just watched the Haunting of MJ and Lizard King, and I still think these are some of the worst episodes in the series (about to rewatch The Wedding episode, which we'll see if it still holds the crown of "worst episode" like it used to for me.) Like what was mentioned earlier, it makes no sense that Spider-Man wasn't affected by that neogenic neutron bomb. Like Conners says in the episode, "All touched by neogenics will become neutralized". Did the writers of the show suddenly forget that season 2 was called the "Neogenic Nightmare" and it was all about Spider-Man and his neogenic disease? I'll just believe the bomb was tailored to everything touched by Conners DNA, and nothing more. Also, apparently New York's sewer system is overrun by lizards. That's kind of weird. And why do so many look like ancient chinese warriors?! lol!

Ok, does anybody know who the hell Miranda Wilson is and why/how she became this weird organic robot thing? And why is it ok for her to kill herself AND Mysterio? What the crap is that all about? I can't find anything online about this character. Just...bizarre.

[–] GreenGoblinsOckVenom86 13 years ago

I honestly would've left the clone saga out of this cartoon. I think it would've been better that way.

"Time to die! Like a man!" Venom Spider-Man Web of Shadows

[–] DarklordRB 13 years ago

I think we shouldn't really care about a nonlinear plot hole with the Vulture cureing himself of Spiderman's DNA in the next episode. If I can handle seeing the Joker, appartly surviving inescapable near death situations and seeing him nonlinearly alive in the next episode in the Batman cartoon without any explanation of how he survived in the first place, then I can shrug off the whole Vulture thing.

[–] TheMarvel 13 years ago

Thing is, this show loved to showcase flashback scenes to explain current situations. In season 4, they clearly remember Vulture getting the Man-Spider disease in a flashback, yet flash forward and there he is, as if it never happened. I'd say this is quite a bit different than, say, him "dying" off screen for the sake of drama, only to have him come back "somehow surviving".

Anyways, I just finished this series on Netflix, and it was a great blast of nostalgic fun. For the longest time, I hated The Wedding and thought it was the worst episode of the series. In hindsight, I'm actually taking it back. I originally hated it because this should've been an episode focused solely on Peter and MJ, and instead it was just a big brawl of villains, most of which had nothing to do with Peter on a personal level. The only villain in this episode should've been Harry as Green Goblin, and nothing more. Instead we get Smythe, Scorpion, and Kingpin, along with Black Cat. However, it at least sets up some things (like how Smythe had connections to GG and his underwater lair/cloning facilities) and the action in it is decent. I just really hated the "Robo-goblin warriors" (we didn't need more robots) and the fact that Scorpion is really only thrown in there for the hell of it.

I think the worst episode now is a toss up between The Haunting of Mary Jane and The Lizard King. Two episodes that are only tied together by Spider-Man showing his true identity to MJ. I liked the beginning of Haunting because it was a decent fight with Mysterio, but man, the Miranda Wilson villain was one of the worst written characters. She falls off the bridge and gets wounded. So she somehow turns into a psychotic cyborg thing? Then she kills herself in an explosion AND Mysterio...why?? And they know about MJ's past ... how?

See, this is what bothered me about MJ in this show. She clearly has a troubled past with her father. Hints of abuse and abandonment are thrown throughout. Very adult themes, but only explored in crappy episodes like Haunting of MJ, as well as the Doctor Strange episode. I really liked the original Hydro-Man episode because the hints are done in a mature way, with Hydro-Man taunting MJ and MJ writing about her dad in her journal. But I digress.

Lizard King felt like it belonged in a TMNT cartoon. An army of lizard people living in the sewers having gladiator tournaments? They even made them look like ancient chinese warriors.

That being said, I really enjoyed the Six Forgotten Warriors even more now (although in the last episode, it makes no sense for MJ to go to Spidey on that roof. What's she gonna do? Nag Electro to death? lol) Even though it was completely made up for the show, it was really well done, despite the scene mixup at the end with Chameleon and Red Skull.

I also noticed that the show likes to kill characters off by throwing them into portals. Green Goblin, MJ, the Spot, Venom and Carnage, and Spider-Carnage. Although Spider-Carnage is the only one who actually committed suicide. Dark stuff. And if it's not a portal, it's an unnecessary explosion. Don't know how to end this episode/conflict? Blow up a building!

If this show ever comes out on DVD, I very much look forward to watching it all over again. Flaws and all. :)

[–] JannTosh 12 years ago

so I just watched Spectacular Spider-Man and it is certainly a very good show. However it is WAY WAY overhyped. I mean I hear all these people saying it is the best superhero show ever made. Give me a break. Also, all these people who act like 90s Spider-Man is this absolutely horrible crap show with no redeeming qualities while Spectacular Spider-Man is absolutely incredible is just ridiculous.

now Spectacular Spider-Man is certainly a well done show. There are a lot of things I like. However there are a lot of things I like better about the 90s show as well.

Both Christopher Daniel Barnes and Josh Keaton are excellent as Peter Parker/Spider-Man. Barnes sounds a bit more mature I think but that makes sense since the character is older. Both have great Spidey quips in them. One thing Spectacular Spider-Man is certainly better in is the action and fights, definitely far superior, also the animation quality as well of course.

as for Norman Osborn. The one in the Spectacular Spider-Man is a different portrayal. That one clearly is aware of what he is doing as the Goblin while the one in the 90s version and the 2002 feature film. Osborn is basically a decent guy but then developed a Jekyll/Hyde personality. I like the Osborn is the SSM a little more but I prefer Neil Ross's voice.

Doc Ock I think is better in the SSM as a villain because in the 90s show he became a lackey of the Kingpin after his first appearance instead of really his own bad guy. But I prefer his 90s design and voice (Efrem Zimbalist Jr. >>>> Peter MacNicol)

Another thing I like better about the 90s show is that is just had a more epic scope to it that I really enjoyed. I also thing Ed Asner's Jameson wipes the floor with the SSM's Jameson. I also prefer 90s Spider-Man's versions of Shocker and Tombstone (in SSM he is pretty much the "Kingpin" but I prefer the goon for hire version here). And of course, one thing SSM doesn't have at all. Mark freaking Hamill.

so overall, I think SSM and 90s Spider-Man are both good shows, though I prefer 90s Spider-Man a little more. I am definitely disappointed that SSM got cancelled and I definitely enjoyed watching. However I don't find it this absolutely huge difference in quality from this show that many people make it out to be. I think people who think the 90s show is a horrible, crap show really should give this show another watch.

[–] KCJ506 12 years ago

WARNING. Long post ahead.

Both this show and Spectacular are good quality shows. This one however does have it's flaws. For instance the animation in the first season was good, but as the show progressed it got pretty sloppy. And also because of the censorship, the action was pretty lacking. The fights just mostly consisted of grappling, throwing, bear hugs and light kicks that only lasted for about a minute. The show also made Spidey weak when it came to actually taking a hit.

In Spectacular he takes beatings as depicted in the comics. He gets punched a lot, hurled through buildings, slammed against walls and cars, gets his head smashed through car windows etc and is able to carry on fighting. In one episode Kraven gives him a black eye and in the last episode, his costume gets messed up similar to like at the end of the first movie. The fights also lasted longer than the ones in the 90s show. It showed how much more of a struggle Spidey had to defeat his foes.

As previously mentioned the 90s Doc Ock was nothing more than just a lackey to Kingpin. His debut was the only episode he had any real dignity in. Hell that episode even depicted him as someone who'd never take orders from a superior. I mean if he were working with the Kingpin on occasion for a mutual interest would be fine, but he was really nothing more than just a lackey with a high IQ. The Attack Of The Ottobot two parter was Ock's chance to reclaim his arch-villain status, but it gets ruined when it's revealed that he was working for Kingin again. Kingpin didn't even attribute to anything in that episode other than showing that Ock wasn't acting on his own. I do agree with the above poster about him having a better voice.

Spectacular Ock goes from a wimpy lab worker to a huge presence in the New York underworld. A powerful, ambitious, and true megalomaniac. In mere two seasons, it did several of his best stories from the comics. The Sinister Six, the Master Planner, and the Gang War. Amazing accomplishment. And honestly more than anything the 90s show did with Ock in their full five seasons.

While I prefer the Ultimate(comics)/Spectacular Spider-man take on Venom with Eddie being an old friend of Peter's, I do think this cartoon improved on comic Venom a lot. He had a better motive for hating Spider-man than he did in the comics. However the actions of Spectacular Venom's including his plan to take down Spidey were pretty dark and twisted. Wasn't too crazy about his voice though TBH.

I also didn't like how Morbius was treated like a major villain and ended up having more exposure than some of Spidey's bigger villains. I also felt the show missed a big opportunity for character development with Kingpin after his wife left him, but they swept it under the rug. Having him trying to reconcile with his wife could have made an interesting story. And speaking of Kingpin, it honestly was pretty stupid in the last season how he was able to break out of shackles and yet those same shackles still held the Rhino.

And of course there's Anna Watson. She had to have been the most one dimensional character on the show. Her entire purpose was just being a miserable old shrew and putting Peter down. She was even open to the idea that Peter was a traiter to the US and also had the Punisher stalk and terrioze him. In Spectacular, Sally Avril basically played the same role, only she didn't go overboard with the Peter bashing and actually had her human moments. She felt sad when she thought he had died. In Peter was thought to be dead in the 90s cartoon, Anna probably would have been cheering for his death.

Don't get me wrong I still find this show good. And it does have some quality episodes. Especially from the first three seasons. And I actually like the 90s version of Black Cat more than Spectacular's. Can't go wrong with Jennifer Hale.

Sick of threads "Megan Fox should play this!"

[–] KCJ506 12 years ago

so I just watched Spectacular Spider-Man and it is certainly a very good show. However it is WAY WAY overhyped. I mean I hear all these people saying it is the best superhero show ever made. Give me a break. Also, all these people who act like 90s Spider-Man is this absolutely horrible crap show with no redeeming qualities while Spectacular Spider-Man is absolutely incredible is just ridiculous.

This can apply to both sides TBH. I mean the people who don't like the 90s show seem to be judging it by the proper substance. For Spectacular it's the opposite. Fans of the show judge it by the writing, plot, character development etc. Whereas at least 90% of the haters try to be "hardcore" and base their arguments entirely on it's visuals. It shows that these people aren't very good critics.

These people never actually watched the show and dimiss it as "kiddy" because of it's art style. And don't seem to realize that whether a show is strictly for kids isn't determined by it's art style. It's the tone, characters, writing and such. And they also don't seem to understand why the creators went with a more simplified look. This can also go for just about any post 2000 superhero show.

And I'm also hearing people call 90 Spider-man the best superhero show. Better than Batman TAS? As much as I like Spectacular Spider-man, even I'm not gonna make a hyperbole saying it was better than Batman. If it would have lasted longer, then I'd say it could have possibly surpassed it.

I think whether anyone prefers the 90s Spider-man or Spectacular, I'm sure both sides can agree that Ultimate is a HUGE downgrade.

Sick of threads "Megan Fox should play this!"

[–] GreenGoblinsOckVenom86 12 years ago

I didn't like Josh Keaton but mostly because he voiced Harry in the Spider-Man 1 movie game where you get to play as him in goblin gear when you beat the game on the Hero difficulty. So whenever I hear Peter talking I automatically think of Harry in that game. He doesn't even make himself sound different.

When I told you to go screw yourself I didn't mean for you to take it literally.
Adam Gibson