MovieChat Forums > Courage Under Fire (1996) Discussion > Abrams tanks

Abrams tanks

posted 19 years ago by rodomir
3 replies | jump to latest

In my opinion, the M1A1 showed on the movie were not real M1A1 tanks. Anyone else noticed that?. The real one is clearly bigger (specially in lenght) and has seven road wheels (the little ones in direct contact with the tracks and ground), but in the movie they had only six. As I know, no one existing Abrams equipped only six road weels ever.
The cannon appears to be shorter than the real one, and in the movie the gunner was order to hold fire until the enemy tank was circa 1.000 metres away, though he had located it at 2.500 metres. On a real battle, U.S. gunners engaged targets using the stand off capability of the Abrams firing at distances circa 3.500 metres. I mean, he was able to destroy the T-72 from the beggining.

On the other hand, the imitation of the tank was not so bad, specially inside. After seeing videos of a loader working on the real stuff, the real one appears to be more roomy, but for the naked eye they were very close.

Anyone knows how did they get the "fake tanks" to do the movie?. I mean, were they wooden models or something?.
And why they did not asked the military after one or two real abrams to do first shots of the outside and inside?.

[–] WildMountainThyme 19 years ago

Check out the Trivia section for this movie.

The tanks were VISMOD'ed British Centurions. The storyline caused the DoD to take one look and say "Not just no, but HELL NO". Hence the "fake" Abrams.

Basically the same reason for the PzKpfw VI Tigers in Saving Private Ryan looking a LOT like Soviet T-34's from the hull down: If you can't get a real Tiger, you make do with what you have.

For England, for home, and for the prize!

[–] Hoochie-Turner 18 years ago

Yeah they were Centurions (later re-used for Hulk also). Best ID feature for the Cent is the tracks. Trackpads on the Centurion come in 3 square rubber blocks, M1's tracks pads have only 2 rectangular rubber blocks. Chieftain or Chally 1 have a single large rubber block. Most eastern made armour has no track pads, although the Chinese have started to introduce them on their vehicles.

You are correct on the gunnery side also. An M1 can engage enemy armour in ranges in excess of 3Km. The currect record tank kill range however belongs to a Chally 1 from the 1st Gulf War. It engaged and detroyed an Iraqi T-72 at 5.3Km (confirmed) from its rifled L11A5 gun, using a HESH round at night. M1 using her German 120mm smooth bore gun, simply can't reach that far. Paradoxically most modern tanks can see further in the dark due to modern optical euipment, whilts during the day it normally relies on the guners eyeball Mk1!

Also the SPR Tigers were T-34's (just like they did in the 70's for Kellyus Heroes). In reality Tigers were FAR bigger beasts than those depicted on screen - but they did a good job of Tigering them up anyway.

[–] clarinath 18 years ago

I was a Tanker in an M1A1 Abrams during the Gulf War. For starters, the trackpad comment is partially correct. There were three different types of rubber track blocks used for the M1A1 variant. One had two angled trackpads, one had two square trackpads, and one had one single rounded corner rectangular trackpad. This track was used on the M1A1 "Heavy". My tank was a regular M1A1 and was brought from Germany. When we got to Saudi we changed out the angled track blocks to the two square.

As for the gunnery comment. On our first attack, we started engaging Iraqi T-54/55 tanks at a little over 5000m (5k) while going almost 40mph over the desert sand. In broad daylight. The Iraqis, being rather stupid, jumped out of their tanks and lit barrels of oil and gas on their back decks (the area over the engine at the back of the tank). This sent up a lovely plume of black smoke and added to their already easily identifiable heat signature. We later learned that the reason they lit the oil was because they thought they were under attack from the air and lit the oil to confuse the fast moving aircraft. They couldn't see us yet and the prisoners we talked to after we overran the objective just couldn't believe they had been defeated by tanks. We could plainly see which tanks were destroyed and which tanks were still good due to the fact that when a russian tank is sliced open by our sabot ammo it blows the turret off. At 5000m we could see them clearly enough using our thermal sights. Well enough to see whether they had turrets or not. The primary tank round we use is a sabot, called APFSDS-T. That is an Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot-Tracer. This depleted uranium round flies at a little over 7000 feet per second and hits with over 4 million foot pounds of energy. It is truly a beautiful sight. Saying the M1 can't shoot over 5k is entirely false. We usually like to get them within 2500m but we can certainly hit farther away with no problems at all.

I don't know where the HESH round comment came from, but I don't believe it for a second. A HESH round is a High Explosive Squash Head round and is not the best tank killer out there. Not only that it has the trajectory of a rainbow. They are heavy warheads and just don't fly that well. The longest tank to tank kill on record was made by a Challenger, but with a sabot.
"During Operation Desert Storm a British Army Challenger tank achieve the longest range confirmed tank-to-tank kill at 5100 meters or 5.1km with an rifled 120mm APFSDS 'Charm' depleted uranium round." http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/apfsds.htm

On to the modern tanks and how far they can see. The thermal imaging system in the M1A1 magnifies the heat image that it sees 50,000 times. What that means is that if the outside temp is 90 degrees, a person who is 98 degrees would show up hotter to the sight than the surrounding terrain. If the sun is out, that makes things easier. The person would absorb more heat than other objects, depending on the color of thier clothes, and it would make them a brighter hot spot. A dark colored object heats up more in the sun, so they would show up as hotter, brighter spots. The TIS shows up in either white hot or black hot, meaning the gunner could set the images to either show up as white when hotter than ambient or black. It really is an impressive sight and it is the primary day or night sight, far better than a gunner's eye. A well camoflaged person could hide in a woodline at 4000m and even using the 10 power magnification a gunner couldn't see him. Flip on the TIS and that same observer would shine like a star. You can't hide from an M1A1.