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relationships between the varied characters - barbed_wire let's discuss

posted 8 years ago by meemee_7
12 replies | jump to latest

So in the other thread I asked barbed_wire_strawberry to elaborate on his/her ideas about the relationships in the film. You cite relationships between all the (sexually active) women, and between those women and the men in the film.

I believe they are really only one woman, namely Alice. Alice is present at the first party, is thematically mirrored at the second party in the form of the "redeeming lady", is cloned by Marion (and her fella is a Cruise clone), Domino, and her roommate.

I feel like there is a thematic relationship between Domino and Helena, too.

Certainly, all the females are portrayed as prostitues in one way or another, and little Helena as a prostitute-in-training. In fact, she seems to be doomed to this end. Makes you wonder what Kubrick thought a gal could do to escape this fate!

"...if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!" Roy Batty

[–] Barbed_Wire_Strawberry 8 years ago

Most of the men are prostitutes in non-sexual way. Basically selling their redeeming qualities in order to service someone higher than them.

I like your theory, and I think there is a line from the book and/or tv film about searching for his wife in all the women he met. Certainly the 'sameness' of women and how they think, what they want is something the film looks at. These are notions that seem to hurt Bill's confidence and sense of self - and I believe on another uncanny level reflect the relationship between the viewer and the actors themselves (or their personas), as there are many self concious references in the film.

Certainly Bill must have been making connections - and when he checks on his daughter sleeping it is concern for her safety, but also a horrible 'what might be' - doesn't concern Bill too much obviously as he lets his daughter walk off at the toy store at the end.

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[–] meemee_7 8 years ago

Nick seems to be an exception to the male-as-whore theory; a guy that walks away from medical school is his own man, so to speak...and yet, he does cave and give up the info when Bill presses him for party info. He's an interesting case, but maybe just he demonstrates that although everyone has their price, the price itself is sometimes a surprise. In Nick's case, I think he enjoyed impressing Bill with his quasi-insider knowledge, but could care less about social status.

As for the ladies, they all certainly look alike! And the film is riddled with visual connections: both Mandy and Alice sprawled, drugged, on red chair/red sheets; the baby carriage outside Domino's apartment vs the baby carriage Helena admires at the store; Alice and Marions identical hairstyles.

When you talk about what ladies want messing up Bills confidence, do you refer to Alice's fantasy? I love the evolutionary theory of sexual behavior...except it doesn't take into account that we are sentient creatures that can move and plan beyond mere biological imperatives! When I first saw this film, I mildly disliked the characters...but when Bill bought into that theory so thoroughly I couldn't help but laugh :)

YES the film holds up several mirrors, between the characters, and definitely to the viewers...this reality mirrors our own. Kubrick did this with "The Shining" as well...we viewed not just one family's story, but our own cyclical history.

I remember the brough-ha-ha over having power couple Kidman/Cruise in the film together and remember thinking it was deliberate, because Kubrick didn't usually rely on "star power" in his films...

"...if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!" Roy Batty

[–] someartist 8 years ago

why are you making theories when the film is based on a book? Have you read Thraumnovelle...I highly recommend it

[–] meemee_7 8 years ago

No, I haven't read the book, but I'll check it out based on your recommendation. As you know, many of Kubrick's films are based on books, but they always differ, to the point that I would consider them stand-alone properties. Investigation of the source material doesn't necessarily inform understanding of the film, especially the often-present sub-narratives.

"...if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!" Roy Batty

[–] Barbed_Wire_Strawberry 8 years ago

Someartist...anyone that had read the book and seen the film would not ask such a question.

meemee, as you can see, not too many people have much to add to the discussion here.

Here is a wonderful blog if you are interested in exploring more of the film:

http://somerton.tumblr.com/

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[–] meemee_7 8 years ago

Thanks, I'll check it out!

"...if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!" Roy Batty

[–] someartist 8 years ago

Yeah you're right but I felt this movie was much closer to the source material than his other works. Its very atmospheric much like the film. I like your interpretation though.

Have you seen Rob Ager's analysis of EWS? I saw it 10 years ago and it really moved me. I think the video isn't online anymore but I have it on my HD.

[–] meemee_7 8 years ago

I just found an English version of Traunovelle and Im looking forward to it

I've read Rob Ager! But not anything about EWS. I've read his stuff on The Shining and 2001...that's where i learned the term "sub-narrative" you caught me :). I like his articles, they're very well thought out.

"...if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!" Roy Batty

[–] Barbed_Wire_Strawberry 8 years ago

All the female characters exist on a scale of worth - that is what they are reduced to as Bill is out exploring.

It's the Ziegler view of the world that seduces Bill so - Alice's worth is directly tied to Bill's enjoyment/contentment. But Alice messes it all up for him (Old mate Lester if you read through the boards calls it small f feminism lol) and his neurosis is nearly exposed when forced to undress, but is saved by as you suggest OP, an Alice doppelganger.

Somerton is almost like the shared fantasy space, a twin peaks black lodge. Almost Lynch like how the music lets Bill in...

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[–] meemee_7 8 years ago

That is heavy. Yes, he is in shock at the idea of exposing himself in the circle, but just moments before commanded the mystery woman and actually reached up to remove her mask...how very Ziegler-like of him. And how unselfish of her to save him later, huh?

I started Traumnovelle, and early on is a passage where the author says something along the lines of "Whether out of impatience or compassion, [the wfe] confessed first...". Is this the hallmark of a woman? To be regarded as a commodity, and simultaneously being a martyr?

I think a lot of men are treated as commodities, but I don't think they are ever expected to be redeeming.

I love your calling Somerton a shared fantasy space, the Black Lodge of EWS! But if the two parties are merely two versions of the SAME party, the twin scenes of Bill being called to revive Mandy and Bill being redeemed by the mystery woman serve, in each case, to expose him for what he is, as opposed to Bill exposing himself, yes? He does not belong...he is merely the hired help. Only after these relevations, is he able to reveal himself to Alice; recall him crying and saying he will tell her everything. He is not going to confess to going to a wild party; he is going to confess that YES, he was tempted by the girls at Zieglers, YES, he is jealous that another man wanted Alice, YES, sexual fantasies do occur in his office, YES, he is a shameless social climber :). He will basically reverse every lie he told while they were in the room getting high

"...if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!" Roy Batty

[–] someartist 8 years ago

I like that you mentioned Lynch. I am a budding director and what I enjoy most of a film is its atmosphere. I cannot put it in words what exactly it is...but I feel it. Even more than acting, dialogue or script it is the atmosphere of a feature film that moves me. Eyes Wide Shut is very atmospheric. Its grainy and like a dream. Another similar movie is Mulholland Drive. There is a very small scene when Betsy(Naomi Watts) enters her rented apartment when she first arrives in LA. The camera floats around in silence around the room. I love it. Blade Runner of course is science fiction and noir at that but it has an almost hypnotic effect on me.

[–] Barbed_Wire_Strawberry 8 years ago

Goods posts, and I agree with you meemee, everything in your last paragraph is spot on, and someartist, the atmosphere of Eyes Wide Shut is wonderful and haunting, like a lot of Lynch which I also love. I can see a deep understanding between Lynch and Kubrick re: sexuality in film and society in general.

The lesson Bill doesn't learn is he is just a whore too. And Kubrick was pointing the same finger at viewers that didn't quite understand what they were getting a peak at with this film.

Notice the appearing/disappearing xxx/liqour sign during the Domino/Sonata/Rainbow Fashions scenes? It's a frame of mind, it's a psychological process being conveyed here. Not an objective reality, as though film were intended to represent that.

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