MovieChat Forums > Eyes Wide Shut (1999) Discussion > For all the conspiracy theorists....

For all the conspiracy theorists....


..here is some info:

"Eyes Wide Shut is a 1999 erotic thriller film loosely based upon Arthur Schnitzler's 1926 novella Traumnovelle (Dream Story). The book deals with the thoughts and psychological transformations of Doctor Fridolin over a two-day period after his wife confesses having had sexual fantasies involving another man. In this short time, he meets many people who give clues to the world Schnitzler creates. This culminates in the masquerade ball, a wondrous event of masked individualism, sex, and danger for Fridolin as the outsider."

There is an Austrian movie from 1969 (the Moon ladning!!!!?!?) which is quite identical to EWS. You can watch it here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inJp4rPyLrU (skip to 39:00 for the good stuff).

I think Kubrick liked the story and simply remade it with bigger budget. And the movie is not about exposing secret society and their rituals. It's about the inner journey of the main character.





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It's about the inner journey of the main character.


Yes, I agree. People tend to "see" all kind of conspiracies and wild theories about the upper echelons in society, whereas I experience "just" a marvellous exposure of the thin line between "real" and "unreal."


"Es fließen ineinander Traum und Wachen,
Wahrheit und Lüge. Sicherheit ist nirgends.
Wir wissen nichts vom andern, nichts von uns;
Wir spielen immer, wer es weiß, ist klug."

"Doch Träume sind Begierden ohne Mut,
Sind freche Wünsche, die das Licht des Tags
Zurückjagt in die Winkel unsrer Seele,
Daraus sie erst bei Nacht zu kriechen wagen."



...Credo quia absurdum...

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"There is an Austrian movie from 1969 (the Moon ladning!!!!?!?) which is quite identical to EWS."

No, it isn't 'identical' to the film, but a straight adaptation, made for German TV, of Schnitzler's novella.

"I think Kubrick liked the story and simply remade it with bigger budget."

But the film is radically different from the novella. Kubrick changes everything from it while adding significant new elements eg there is no Ziegler character in the novella, whereas in the film he is a central figure, linking the official New York social world of Bill to the hidden transgressive underside of the Somerton elite. The film is set in the contemporary New York of 1999, the end of the 20th century, whereas the novella was set in Vienna a hundred years pervious. These are just two of the more obvious differences, but there are numerous others.

"And the movie is not about exposing secret society and their rituals."

So the Somerton sequences in the film, the core event in the film (around which the narrative is ultimately structured) doesn't involve a secret society and it's rituals? Everyone, including the audience, is just imagining it all?

"It's about the inner journey of the main character."

So Bill is just day-dreaming? Imagining everything?

There are no dream sequences in the film, none whatsoever, except for the clearly signalled Black and White/Monochrome brief inserts of Bill fantasizing about Alice being with the naval officer. Nothing else is being imagined.



Yes, of course I completely agree, but aren't you actually completely wrong?

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Sure EWS is an adaptation of Traumnovelle, but the story and its structure remained quite similar, as well as the main theme. According my view the heart of EWS is formed the wife's confession, which sticks into the husband's brain as a burden he can not get rid of. He feels humiliated, and that's why he starts these nightly wanderings, but are these really wanderings or ... is this a mind at work; a mind that renders a confusional web of desires, distorted memories, anxieties, and so on and so on. The amount of coincidences and inconsistencies creates the atmosphere of dealing with a man's inner struggle rather than reality, don't you think?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Story



...Credo quia absurdum...

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The amount of coincidences and inconsistencies creates the atmosphere of dealing with a man's inner struggle rather than reality, don't you think?


No. The mask on the pillow (an allusion to the Godfather) is Kubrick's attempt to preclude the "it was all just a dream/in his mind" interpretation that he knew would inevitably occur, as the same interpretation had been lobbed (incorrectly) at his previous movies.

I mean, what's next? 2001 was all just about black monoliths? It was all just a dream in Dave's head? The second half of Full Metal Jacket didn't really happen, it was just a nightmare that Joker had as he was dealing with his inner struggles about war?

Why would Kubrick make a lame movie that dealt only with Tom Cruise exploring his feelings of jealousy over his wife's fantasy of having an affair with another man when he'd already made a much more provocative film with Lolita?

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Why would Kubrick make a lame movie that dealt only with Tom Cruise exploring his feelings of jealousy over his wife's fantasy of having an affair with another man when he'd already made a much more provocative film with Lolita?


But this is a film about relationships, not secret societies. Same with the book, and I doubt Kubrick would've adapted it only to turn the most fascinating aspect of the story into something so trite. Yes the power elite sex orgy people do play a role in the plot, and you can call them a "secret society" if you want, but they're just helping to move the plot along, they're not the main focus of the story. The main thrust of the story revolves around their marriage, and the insecurities, dishonesty and even madness that can inhabit a relationship.

The movie goes further off the rails the more Tom Cruise's character loses his psychological grip, so he does seem to become a bit of an unreliable narrator. I don't personally buy into it all being a dream though, although the original source material is translated as "Dream Story". I think towards the end everything is exaggerated because that is his emotionally paranoid state. Perhaps he simply got thrown out of a party and pissed off his buddy. But in his mind it was a wild sex orgy and now he's being followed. Really none of the details for that matters all too much, the meat of the story is the interaction between him and his wife.

And meanwhile on Mushroom Hill this happened https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IlnOiJWUdo

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So obviously Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman were perfect for the roles and knew it or didn't know it.


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The mask on the pillow...is Kubrick's attempt to preclude the "it was all just a dream/in his mind" interpretation that he knew would inevitably occur... what's next? 2001 was all just about black monoliths? It was all just a dream in Dave's head? The second half of Full Metal Jacket didn't really happen, it was just a nightmare that Joker had as he was dealing with his inner struggles about war?
_______________________

👍 It has to be made into something so much more to many viewers, to make them appear more intelligent and impressive. I guess they feel they have something to prove due to mask whatever insecurities they possess.

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

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Hmm or people (and their sock puppets) just haunt Kubrick fan boards for attention to mask such insecurities perhaps...



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You must be one of those persons I am referring to about masking their insecurities, because you don't like what you are hearing and are in denial. Nasty little troll with a thousand sock accounts.

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

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"Sure EWS is an adaptation of Traumnovelle, but the story and its structure remained quite similar, as well as the main theme."

It is fundamentally different, as the film is placing the insular and petty preoccupations of a couple in a much wider context, that of contemporary power, and of how power/ideology completely structures their everyday reality, including even their dreams and desires, including even their identities and intimacies. And just about every scene in the novel that makes it into the film is subtly different, and often reversed.

"According my view the heart of EWS is formed the wife's confession, which sticks into the husband's brain as a burden he can not get rid of."

Alice's confession of her past desire is the inciting incident, the motor that gets things going. Bill can't deal with it because of Bill's smug presuppositions about women and of the role they play in his libidinal/desiring economy. For Bill, women are not permitted to have desires of their own, but to be passified, obedient (Bill is the typical conservative-neurotic subject), and so is shocked when Alice reveals that she might actually have desires of her own, even desires that might exclude Bill. This is what propels Bill on his journey, his jealous attempt to catch up with Alice's fantasy, to impotently attempt to restore women to their passive role again (hence his chasing after prostitutes, etc). But this is not all, as Bill is later excluded from somewhere else, from the desire space of the powerful Somerton elite, which tips him over into hysterical desperation.

"but are these really wanderings or ... is this a mind at work; a mind that renders a confusional web of desires, distorted memories, anxieties, and so on and so on."

The film is not just about some smug, narrow-minded, egocentric, petty bourgeoise New York doctor, it is about the nature of contemporary power. What happens to be is happening to him; it is Bill that is seeking to avoid reality, to escape, to imagine that what is happening is not 'really' happening, that he is cocooned in a solipsistic male fantasy space that seeks to shut out the real, including the real of desire. It is only when he finally arrives home and sees the mask on the bed (an embodiment of his secret desires, the desires he has been so pathetically denying and disavowing throughout the whole film) that he finally breaks down into a subjective destitution, no longer sure of anything (because everything he was previously so insistent on being 'sure about (Bill's standard male-chauvinist condescension to Alice: "I'm sure of you") turns out to be a lie, a fiction, that his entire reality was and is a symbolic fiction.

"The amount of coincidences and inconsistencies creates the atmosphere of dealing with a man's inner struggle rather than reality, don't you think?"

But Bill's so-called 'inner struggle' is entirely EXTERNALLY determined and conditioned, including his recurring jealous fantasy, including his illusory identity he is so desperate to cling on to and announce to everyone. It isn't an inner struggle, but an external social, political, economic, and libidinal set of struggles and antagonisms.


Yes, of course I completely agree, but aren't you actually completely wrong?

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”Sure EWS is an adaptation of Traumnovelle, but the story and its structure remained quite similar, as well as the main theme.”

It is fundamentally different, as the film is placing the insular and petty preoccupations of a couple in a much wider context, that of contemporary power, and of how power/ideology completely structures their everyday reality, including even their dreams and desires, including even their identities and intimacies. And just about every scene in the novel that makes it into the film is subtly different, and often reversed.


It clearly says that EWS is an adaptation, which is not the same as a re-make. Of course Kubrick changed this story (Traumnovelle) into a product according his personal great craftsmanship, yet he stayed true to the original main story and its structure. I don’t know why I have to repeat this. The time-settings were different, and Kubrick created some excellent enhancements and subplots, but both protagonists are doctors, have a wife confessing an adulterous adventure, visit prostitutes, meet an old friend called Nightingale or Nachtigall, who plays the piano and who provides the entrance to the secret masked sexual ritual, which brings them into danger, even the costume-shop owner prostituting his daughter, the return to the mansion’s gate, and last but not least even the re-appearing of the mask followed by a complete confession remained unchanged.

“According my view the heart of EWS is formed the wife's confession, which sticks into the husband's brain as a burden he can not get rid of.”

Alice's confession of her past desire is the inciting incident, the motor that gets things going. Bill can't deal with it because of Bill's smug presuppositions about women and of the role they play in his libidinal/desiring economy. For Bill, women are not permitted to have desires of their own, but to be passified, obedient (Bill is the typical conservative-neurotic subject), and so is shocked when Alice reveals that she might actually have desires of her own, even desires that might exclude Bill. This is what propels Bill on his journey, his jealous attempt to catch up with Alice's fantasy, to impotently attempt to restore women to their passive role again (hence his chasing after prostitutes, etc). But this is not all, as Bill is later excluded from somewhere else, from the desire space of the powerful Somerton elite, which tips him over into hysterical desperation.


So the heart of the story, or as you please, “the motor that gets things going” is indeed the wife’s confession, but Bill’s hysterical desperation is triggered at the moment he finds the mask on his pillow near his sleeping/dreaming wife, which differs from the original story in the aspect that in Traumnovelle Fridolin’s wife is not in the bed. Her sleeping presence seem to emphasise the vagueness between real and unreal, which already started by selecting the acting couple - who’s dreaming?
As we all know, in real life Cruise and Kidman were husband and wife, who play the role of husband and wife in EWS. Quite funny, don’t you think, as in real life husband and wife are often expected to behave according social constructs, rules and maybe even “roles,” which evoke the question: Are they acting that they love one another, or is it for real? The mist of cannabis not only thickens the smoke-curtain between this enigmatic layers, but also expose the question if the couple needed some stimulant to engaging into sexual action, “How do I look?Perfect. Is my hair okay? It's great. You're not even looking at it. It's beautiful. You always look beautiful.”
Then at the party: Ziegler says - “Alice, look at you. God, you're absolutely stunning! I don't say that to all the women. Do I? -Yes, he does. -He does?”



“but are these really wanderings or ... is this a mind at work; a mind that renders a confusional web of desires, distorted memories, anxieties, and so on and so on.”

The film is not just about some smug, narrow-minded, egocentric, petty bourgeoise New York doctor, it is about the nature of contemporary power. What happens to be is happening to him; it is Bill that is seeking to avoid reality, to escape, to imagine that what is happening is not 'really' happening, that he is cocooned in a solipsistic male fantasy space that seeks to shut out the real, including the real of desire. It is only when he finally arrives home and sees the mask on the bed (an embodiment of his secret desires, the desires he has been so pathetically denying and disavowing throughout the whole film) that he finally breaks down into a subjective destitution, no longer sure of anything (because everything he was previously so insistent on being 'sure about (Bill's standard male-chauvinist condescension to Alice: "I'm sure of you") turns out to be a lie, a fiction, that his entire reality was and is a symbolic fiction.


The film is certainly not about a mundane couple caught in the spell of some dangerous secret society. In many ways the party at Ziegler’s juxtaposes Bill’s presence at the secret society’s sexual ritual. At the party Bill’s conversations were loaded with seduction, advances, suggestions and references to promiscuity. Also Bill had to save a prostitute’s life and the host’s secretive escapades. Despite all the faces he hardly knew anyone, except for the pianist. At the ritual all masked members seem to notice that Bill was not one of them. Without words male and female were coupled at random on a rhythm set by the high priest and soon after were fully engaged into sexual activities, supported by mysterious organ music and sinister vocals; contrasting words and dances at ‘normal’ parties. In contrast to moving unnoticed and anonymously through the crowd Bill experienced that his reputation and identity were at stake, as he has to remove his mask and show himself completely naked. Saved by the bell a prostitute came to rescue, yet she had to pay a price for her altruistic interference.

“The amount of coincidences and inconsistencies creates the atmosphere of dealing with a man's inner struggle rather than reality, don't you think?”

But Bill's so-called 'inner struggle' is entirely EXTERNALLY determined and conditioned, including his recurring jealous fantasy, including his illusory identity he is so desperate to cling on to and announce to everyone. It isn't an inner struggle, but an external social, political, economic, and libidinal set of struggles and antagonisms.


The above mentioned comparison between Ziegler’s party and the secretive “physical communion” gives reasons to believe this must be a construction of a mind drifting into fantasy or dreamlike otherworldly realms. Additionally the girl’s impossible awareness and certainty of Bill being the masked visitor who needs to be rescued can not be denied, and does not find any reasonable explanation according causal everyday life circumstances *.
One of the superb subplots rendered by Kubrick concerns Ziegler’s role and the influence of “his” secret society. It stirs up an atmosphere of paranoia of a man who is afraid of losing everything he has, but the morning after his breakdown and confession Bill and his wife and kid go out doing Christmas shopping without any noticeable indication of fear for that secret society - how can that be?


* the list of similar impossibilities (purposefully crafted inconsistencies) is much longer, and require a much longer writing.

...Credo quia absurdum...

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"”Sure EWS is an adaptation of Traumnovelle, but the story and its structure remained quite similar, as well as the main theme.”
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It is fundamentally different, as the film is placing the insular and petty preoccupations of a couple in a much wider context, that of contemporary power, and of how power/ideology completely structures their everyday reality, including even their dreams and desires, including even their identities and intimacies. And just about every scene in the novel that makes it into the film is subtly different, and often reversed.
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"It clearly says that EWS is an adaptation,"

An adaptation that is radically different from the source medium, from the novel. It simply takes the bare bones of the novel to provide a skeletal framework, and then departs from the novel.

"which is not the same as a re-make."

But a 're-make' refers to a film that is an adaptation of another, previous film. This isn't the case here.

"he stayed true to the original main story and its structure."

Only at the level of a basic skeletal outline, at the most surface level.

"I don’t know why I have to repeat this."

Repeat what?

"The time-settings were different,"

And the place. He didn't just change the time-period as if it was just a decorative 'special effect'. The film is specifically situated in and is about CONTEMPORARY reality (and fantasy), about the nature of the Real (not "is this real?" but "what is the real?") about the structures of power (and related to it, political economy and sexuality, identity and intimacy) in late capitalism at the end of the 20th century in a city that is at the centre of that ideology.

"and Kubrick created some excellent enhancements and subplots,"

They are not just some trivial add-ons, though; they fundamentally alter what the film is actually about, as well as its treatment of the central themes.

"but both protagonists are doctors,"

Bill Harford is a doctor, but Alice isn't. As the film makes clear, she had been working in an art gallery but it went 'bust'. Apart from Ziegler's party and the final scene in the toy store, we only ever see her in the domestic-private realm of the home/apartment.

"have a wife confessing an adulterous adventure,"

She didn't have any 'adulterous adventure'. It was a recollection of a moment when she was suddenly overcome with the real of desire, overtaken by a FANTASY about a sailor she had seen but never met. She didn't act on it (whereas Bill is the opposite, seeking to act out his fantasies).

"visit prostitutes, meet an old friend called Nightingale or Nachtigall, who plays the piano and who provides the entrance to the secret masked sexual"

But each of these events and encounters are TOTALLY different from the novel, often completely reversed or inverted, and in the novel the masked ritual is separate and isolated from Bill's everyday official public world, something random, whereas in the film it isn't, it is inherently linked, as the introduction of the Ziegler figure demonstrates.

"ritual, which brings them into danger, even the costume-shop owner prostituting his daughter, the return to the mansion’s gate, and last but not least even the re-appearing of the mask followed by a complete confession remained unchanged."

But only at the most rudimentary, superficial level. The novel ends in the Harfords' bedroom and is escapist and upbeat, whereas the film ends in a toy-store and far from being positive or upbeat, but actually deeply disturbing.



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“According my view the heart of EWS is formed the wife's confession, which sticks into the husband's brain as a burden he can not get rid of.”

Alice's confession of her past desire is the inciting incident, the motor that gets things going. Bill can't deal with it because of Bill's smug presuppositions about women and of the role they play in his libidinal/desiring economy. For Bill, women are not permitted to have desires of their own, but to be passified, obedient (Bill is the typical conservative-neurotic subject), and so is shocked when Alice reveals that she might actually have desires of her own, even desires that might exclude Bill. This is what propels Bill on his journey, his jealous attempt to catch up with Alice's fantasy, to impotently attempt to restore women to their passive role again (hence his chasing after prostitutes, etc). But this is not all, as Bill is later excluded from somewhere else, from the desire space of the powerful Somerton elite, which tips him over into hysterical desperation.
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"So the heart of the story, or as you please, “the motor that gets things going” is indeed the wife’s confession,"

It isn't the heart of the narrative, but its trigger, inciting event, what 'gets it moving' (the motor).

"Also Bill had to save a prostitute’s life"

He wasn't there to save Mandy's life (the woman OD'd in the bathroom); he was doing a favour for his client, Ziegler, saving him from possible embarrassment and exposure. He wasn't a doctor attending to a patient in need (and no nurse present either, something Bill later insists on telling/lying to Alice is always the case) but blindly serving the needs and demands of an obscene master figure (Ziegler), who has just seemingly drugged and raped a woman in his own bathroom and wants to dispose of her as quickly as possible ("Can't we just get her out of here?", says Ziegler). Even Ziegler admits to this: "You saved my áss!" while also reminding Bill to keep it all secret, that it is 'just between us', even though there is a woman sitting just next to them.

"The above mentioned comparison between Ziegler’s party and the secretive “physical communion” gives reasons to believe this must be a construction of a mind drifting into fantasy or dreamlike otherworldly realms."

No, it is happening in the world of the film. The issue isn't whether it is happening or not, but whether it is a "charade", a staged event (ie a ritual, a symbolic fiction being acted out). If it were just some daydreaming fantasy, then most of what happens in the rest of the film would also be just escapist daydreaming, like the pool room scene with Ziegler. This would reduce the film to pure nonsense, a simple escapist cartoon about nothing. The film is much more complex than that.


To make the Somerton ritual simply a fantasy of Bill Harford's would be to remove the film's social and political dimensions entirely, reducing everything to the domestic and the private. How then, for instance, would the Ziegler scene at the end fit in if this were the case? That too would 'definitely' have to be a dream sequence, since it makes explicit reference to the 'orgy' scene. So, too, would Bill's return to Somerton ...

One danger of making the Somerton scenes a 'dream sequence' is that it spirits away the film's analysis of power, making Bill's insight into the power elite a private fantasy. But saying that what happens at Somerton is not Bill's dream does not mean to say that it is 'real': the question is to what extent the Somerton ritual is a theatrical 'charade' (as Ziegler later describes it) laid out for Bill's seeming benefit. Rather than clearing up all ambiguities, as some have complained, the Ziegler scene in the pool room amplifies them. Ziegler appears to be saying two contradictory things at the same time (a classic double bind): what happened at Somerton was a mere charade, of no consequence; what happened there was enormously, dreadfully important... But if the Somerton scenes are 'real', then the distinction between the public and private, between the world of power, influence and wealth and what happens inside one's own head, collapses. Not because 'everything is a dream' (one's own dream), but - on the contrary - everything is someone else's dream, someone else's desire.

Much as all films, etc, indeed, all media, all culture, are someone ELSE's fantasy, someone else's desire; fantasies, that is to say, don't 'belong' to anyone, as it is never "I" or "Me" that dreams, but "It") ... Too many questions are begged with the 'it's all Bill's dream' story: for instance, does any dream belong to a subject in the way that this kind of account suggests? Freud - and Lacan's - disturbing revelation was that it is not 'I" who dreams but "it"; that s/he who dreams is something which takes the place of the conscious self. Furthermore, psychoanalysis denies us the relief seemingly offered by the claim that 'it's all a dream.' Dreams are the realization of desire, they determine and constitute it, tell us what to desire - and desire is the truth of what we are (even though that truth in no way accords with what we think we are). As Zizek points out, we wake up not to return to reality but, on the contrary, to escape from the real of our desires - to pretend that we are sober, rational subjects (and not the crazed desiring machines of our dreams).

Hence Bill's desperate, obsessively reiterated announcement - to anyone who will listen - that he 'is a doctor' . What is this if not an attempt to convince himself of his identity, to establish that his social standing (still) means something? Far from being Bill's 'fantasy', the film is about Bill's (ultimately failed) attempt to return to the fantasy - the complacent trance - of his previous life: a life not yet wrecked by the irruption of others' desires (Alice's, the Somerton group's) into it. Bill is the man excluded from those desires; an unwelcome interloper into others' dreams.

What's misleading about the attempts to assimilate Eyes Wide Shut - and is regularly done with such other films as Mulholland Drive, A History of Violence, etc - to the "it's all just a dream" model is that their analyses of power are similarly spirited away. Perceptions of manipulation, corruption and systematic abuse amongst 'the best people' are pathologized (in a postmodern repetition of the notorious framing scenes appended to The Cabinet of Dr Caligari). One could say, in fact, that many of the 90s and 00s films that simply attempt to reduce all reality to mere 'illusion' (numerous films from The Matrix to The Truman Show to Vanilla Sky etc) are properly paranoiac and narcissistic, in the sense that they happily collude with fictions of commonsense in attributing the perception of all conspiracies to delusion. But Eyes Wide Shut (and such 70s conspiracy thrillers as The Parallax View, Chinatown, The Conversation, etc) precisely resist this move, by treating the world of power as real, and the world of familial/ familiar domesticity as a comforting illusion.

There are many different varieties of escapism, including in cinema. For instance, there is Star Wars-type escapism which simply distracts us from earthly reality by creating a film reality of pure fantasy (but embedding in it a reactionary political unconscious); the escapist 90s and 00s films mentioned above don't do that. They have a different message: reality as such is all in your head; there is no objective reality. Images are the same as reality, everything is images, is Image; in other words, there's nothing to escape from ----- in other words, it doesn't only perform escapism, it provides a philosophy for it, one that peddles the infantile narcissism and solipsism upon which consumerist ideology runs.

It seems to me that Kubrick was in many ways the inheritor of the nineteenth century naturalist tradition which saw characters as determined by environment. Kubrick's films are intensely, and consistently, focused on psychology, but not as some theatre of interiority. In fact, there are no dream sequences in Eyes Wide Shut at all (apart from the brief monochrome inserts of Bill's jealous fantasy). Rather - as we see most explicitly in A Clockwork Orange - human mental processes are seen as shaped, influenced and manipulated by forces outside the cogito. The tragic flaw in many of Kubrick's characters - in Alex DeLarge, in Redmond Barry, in Jack Torrance, in FMJ's Joker, in Bill Harford - is their impotently omnipotent conviction that they are 'master of their own destiny', in control of their own minds. The Shining is a classic example of this fatal delusion. Rather than being a projection from within his mind, as many have contended, what happens in The Shining is an effect of Jack's mind being overwhelmed, overtaken by The Overlook, by a malevolent Outside.

It is cutting psychology loose from everything else - folding all exteriority inside a solipsistic white male fantasy space - that is what I object to in dismissing much of the film, indeed the most important parts, to "just a dream" (and not forgetting the actual importance of dreams in psychoanalytic theory, where dreams are not escapes from reality but realizations of desire, while 'waking life' is escapist, a set of ideological lies, symbolic fictions that structure perceptions of 'reality'). My objections to standard. mainstream ego-centric 'psychological' interpretations of reality are not objections to psychology per se, but to a hermetic, anti-social, ahistorical version of psychology, drearily consonant with traditional ego-centric and humanist metaphysics in its assumption that the whole cosmos is important only in relation to the conscious male subject. Which condition, incidentally, is exactly the sleepwalking egocentric complacency Bill begins Eyes Wide Shut so conspicuously cocooned in.

Consequently, what is objectionable in 'psychological' interpretations is not the focus on mental processes per se, but that such interpretations (1) dissolve all external reality into being a symbol of interior states and (2) as a consequence they downplay or utterly dismiss any social, political or economic themes and (3) are therefore, quite clearly, unable to make a connection between psychology and an exterior milieu. I believe that Kubrick's power derives in no small part from his sensitive, persistent and unflinching examination of this connection.

Yes, of course I completely agree, but aren't you actually completely wrong?

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Awesome post Harry. But with your last three points there - that is what people do. The 'film' isn't doing those things - but the characters are - and the audience are. You don't see it in the film, you don't see it everyday.




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"Awesome post Harry. But with your last three points there - that is what people do. The 'film' isn't doing those things - but the characters are - and the audience are. You don't see it in the film, you don't see it everyday."

Cheers, Barbed. Yes, the film isn't doing those things, but the reverse; it is critiquing them, not exemplifying them.



"That there are "secret societies" (as you prefer to identify them) is merely incidental to the story of Bill's journey to his catharsis of self-discovery. Along the way, and secondarily, the movie necessarily makes a larger point about the nature of reality."

What would also be false is separating out the (inevitably failed) search to recover the always illusory and only ever imaginary 'unity' of the self from the issue of sexual revenge. The idea of a 'unified' self that
became broken, lost, or 'stolen', is a narcissistic and persecutory fantasy (the defence and recovery of which lead us into all manner of atrocious acts). What Alice says about her desire disrupts Bill's fantasy, which depends upon his being 'sure of her.' But the problem with making it all about Bill's 'self-discovery' (or the discovery of the vacancy of his self, a repressed void of negativity) is that this, precisely, echoes Bill's male-centric POV, and makes Alice/woman a bitpart player in his psychodrama.

Isn't it a question of accepting that what Bill imagined to be his 'inner' self is nothing but a spectre? That there is nothing at all behind the mask, only that which is in front of it? That his being always was split from the beginning... split between social-symbolic reality (the symbolic fictions we call everyday 'reality', the world of 'commonsense') and the Real of desire and unconscious fantasies?

The film is concerned with power, capital, ownership and money - and the way they connect - with the ostensibly private issues of identity, intimacy and sexuality, and any interpretation that concentrates merely on identity, the imaginary, self-discovery etc while ignoring or to the detriment of the social and economic 'themes' is not only willfully blinding itself to whole swathes
of what happens in the film, it is missing one of its most important and unique aspects. As a result, any interpretation that concentrates exclusively on Bill/Alice's marital concerns would be turning a blind eye to large expanses of the film. Indeed, Bill's relationship with Ziegler strikes me as at least as pivotal to the film as his relationship with Alice. Ziegler's main role, it seems to me, is as a power-broker and representative of wealth. Why include him if not to point up this theme?

And, of course, power wants us to believe in commonsense, that what goes on in our own heads is more real than geo-politics and political economy, that the 'content of the mind' is real and determines the 'world' (that the way we see the world is the way that it really is, so ignoring how all perception is mediated by ideas, concepts, beliefs, fictions and fantasies), which is an empiricist solipsism, and is today widespread.

An interpretation that concentrates on Bill's 'identity' and 'hurt' and his 'quest for self-discovery' surrenders the film into being an 'eternal', ahistorical disquizition on fairly well-known existential themes, voided of specific reference to contemporary culture/ society. When - for me - what is interesting is an exploration of those themes in the context of a very precisely drawn socio-economic world.

Doesn't Bill discover that the membrane separating his mind, his psychology, from the world of wealth, power and patriarchy was only ever an illusion? Hence the irony of his desperate attempt to shore up his identity by appealing to his professional status. 'I am a DOC-TOR' - meaning: I am what I am socially validated to be. 'Here's ... my card.'

What if Bill's desperate, obsessively reiterated announcement - to anyone who will listen - that he 'is a doctor' - is just an attempt to convince himself of his identity, to establish that his social standing (still) means something? Far from being Bill's 'fantasy', the film is about Bill's (ultimately failed) attempt to return to the fantasy - the complacent trance - of his previous life.

Then Bill has a vertiginous revelation of his place in the social world, and a hint of what the rich and powerful are capable of. More enigmas open up - who are the Somerton people? Is Ziegler lying, and do the Somerton group kill Mandy's redeemer?

Shocking as this may sound, yes. Power, it should go without saying, is a recurrent theme in Kubrick's work. And economic power is clearly a theme of EWS - _a_ theme, note, not _the_ theme. Is there a film more concerned with the price of things? (See, for instance, Tim Kreider's analysis of EWS on the Kubrick site http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0096.html.)

Nevertheless, the relationship between Bill/Alice's marriage and Ziegler/Somerton - between the psycho-sexual and the thriller elements of the film's narrative - seems to me profoundly uncertain. Bill is plunged into his journey towards 'subjective destitution' by Alice's account of her fantasy, to be sure, but the extent to which the nature of bill and Alice's elationship "is necessary" to the social status bill seeks to achieve (assumes he has achieved, even if he hasn't examined the consequences of that achievement) strikes me as very difficult to read.

Where do Somerton and Ziegler fit in to this picture? Are they on the side of desire or of 'society'? Ziegler would seem to be on the side of society, the symbolic order, patriarchy: yet he is also something of a Sadean libertine. He is both the Father who says No (guarantor of the symbolic order) and the Father who enjoys (wrecker of the symbolic). But what is definitively excluded from Ziegler/ Somerton's desiring-circuit - and from Bill's - is female desire. Women only gain entry insofar as they are passive, bought.

The assumption in many interpretations of EWS is that Bill is shaken out of his complacency into some kind of revelation. But the revelation seems to be essentially negative ---- i.e. Bill, his marriage, and the social milieu in which he moves are not what he thought or presumed they were ---- however, he seems to be no closer to understanding what they actually are.

The ending of EWS is certainly not positive, much less blatantly happy. And it's not a question of a couple turning away from those less fortunate than themselves --- in a sense, it's the reverse, they are ignoring the corruption of those more fortunate than themselves --- and let's not forget that this may involve a murder, among other things. That's the central point: for most people today, there is nothing 'secret' about corruption and the machinations of power. People already KNOW about systematic corruption 'in high places' (the most obvious recent example would be the Financial Meltdown and subsequent bailout and austerity measures; or all the revelations about comprehensive spying by various state, semi-state, and private agencies, and so on), but, like Bill and Alice, choose to act and believe and behave AS IF THEY DON'T KNOW, to disavow their knowledge, to distance themselves from it all, to pretend it's not really happening. Not because they have escaped from it all, but the reverse: in order to conform to it all, to enable them to do it, to blindly submit to it, passively collude in it. Everyone is implicated, everyone wants to keep their eyes wide shut, everyone is a part of the 'conspiracy', which turns out to be the system itself, the power structure itself ...



Yes, of course I completely agree, but aren't you actually completely wrong?

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Well, my point (in the comment of mine that you cited) was that Kubrick wasn't out to "expose" secret societies in EWS. I believe he was operating on the premise that the audience for his movies already sort of knows they exist, and, therefore, the "secret societies" were an "incidental" part of the movie, not the purpose of the movie. As you stated, "people already know about systematic corruption in high places." So please let me re-assure you that I am not, by my remark, attempting to separate out issues of identity and self-discovery from the social and economic themes. Indeed, I've stated elsewhere that Alice's final line in the movie can only be understood in the context of all these themes.

And yes, I agree that Bill is not shaken out of his complacency. The movie, from its title to its final scene, is an indictment of the Harfords, (and the Zieglers and the Somerton crowd) and by extension "us," and makes a larger point about society. But to say that Bill is "no closer" at the end of the movie to understanding his social reality than he was at the beginning is a matter for debate. His wife certainly seems keen on where they stand, and she deliberately "chooses" complacency. And if he is to stay married to her, he would likely choose the same.

By the way, you mentioned the financial meltdown/subsequent bailout and state spying as examples of systematic corruption. I would also add the death/disappearance of Kenneth Lay shortly before he was to be sentenced for fraud and conspiracy convictions.

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"Kubrick wasn't out to "expose" secret societies in EWS."

No, the conspiracy-thriller dimension of the film is about UNMASKING power (and, in the film, patriarchy), the fact that it isn't based on anything, that there is nothing behind it, only a void, a nothing, and that such hidden transgressions are inherent to power and institutions, are part of their very functioning, the perverse, libidinal excess always generated by power that sustains it.

"I believe he was operating on the premise that the audience for his movies already sort of knows they exist, and, therefore, the "secret societies" were an "incidental" part of the movie, not the purpose of the movie."

Why would that make the Somerton sequences 'incidental' just because people know about transgressive behaviours by the ruling class elites? The whole film is structured around the Somerton sequences. After Somerton, everything has changed, and not just for Bill; the film has moved to a different level altogether.

"But to say that Bill is "no closer" at the end of the movie to understanding his social reality than he was at the beginning is a matter for debate."

But he isn't any closer to comprehending it; instead, he is seeking to disavow it all: "Nobody's fooling but everyone's fooled", as it were.

"His wife certainly seems keen on where they stand, and she deliberately "chooses" complacency. And if he is to stay married to her, he would likely choose the same."

So they are 'choosing' escapism and self-delusion, a retreat into the false comforts of the illusory domestic, not to actually escape from their predicament or reality, but in order to blindly conform to it. A failure of comprehension, a 'knowledge' that doesn't know itself because it is being denied in broad daylight.

Cultural commentator Mark Fisher also has an interesting analysis of what is happening the Harfords in the film:

The first form of human slavery is to the Burroughs orgasm drug (the lure by means of which the organic death machine reproduces itself). It's inevitable that power should fixate on this bio-default as one of its principal means of exercising control. The really rather trivial transgressions at Somerton - masked sex! - serve also as an Initiatory Secret, less important for its own content than for dividing those in the know from outsiders. Kubrick's obsessively cultivated ambiguity leaves open the possibility that the whole episode at Somerton - TOGETHER WITH the later scene in the pool hall - are some kind of initiatory rite which draws Bill into closer proximity with the power elite. As if what Zeigler himself calls the 'staged charade' was, like the gate in Kafka's famous parable, meant only for him... So that Alice's final 'fúck' - the last word in the film, that is, the last word in Kubrick's last film - operates as the order word indicating the Harfords quietist acceptance of/ into the Core (or at least, in an inner circle closer to the Core).

In any case, Eyes Wide Shut demonstrates that, however banal it must be in order to be normalized into - and AS - everyday life, power depends upon mystagogic authoritarian ritualization. There is always a secret society, even if the secret it protects is its own vacancy, void.

The theatrical show, the mystagogic mummery, is there to conceal this Void. Hence the power's need for (simulated) hyperstition, its tendency conspiracy theories that propagate themselves via their denial, that operate only through their victims' recovered memories. Hence also the need to diagonalize between Ziegler-esque commonsense and Monarch paranoia:

Ccru: 'Like all conspiracy fictions, [this] is spun out of an all-encompassing narrative that cannot possibly be falsified (because ‘they’ want you to believe in their non-existence).'

To attempt to refute such narratives is to be drawn into a tedious double game. ‘One’ either has to embrace an arbitrary and outrageous cosmic plot (in which everything is being run by the Jews, Masons, Illuminati, CIA, Microsoft, Satan, Ccru…), or alternatively advocate submission to the most mundane construction of quotidian reality, dismissing the hyperstitional chaos that operates beyond the screens (cosmological ‘dark matter’ and ‘dark energy’ - virtual, imperceptible, unknown). This is why atheism is usually so boring.

Both conspiracy and common sense - the ‘normal reality’ script - depend on the dialectical side of the double game, on reflective twins, belief and disbelief, because disbelief is merely the negative complement of belief: cancellation of the provocation, disintensification, neutralization of stimulus - providing a metabolic yawn-break in the double-game.



Yes, of course I completely agree, but aren't you actually completely wrong?

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There are no dream sequences in the film, none whatsoever, except for the clearly signalled Black and White/Monochrome brief inserts of Bill fantasizing about Alice being with the naval officer. Nothing else is being imagined.


Kubrick is not the kind of director that makes his movies easy for the audience is he?


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Imagined is a broad term. EWS is very unique in the way the mise-en-scene is used to comment on the characters - it's so uncanny at times so as to be dream like and fantasy-eque. It remains reality and not the contents of someone's dream or fantasy but so mirrors the inner imaginings so as to be totally dream like and uncanny to the characters themselves, who then experience situations that seem unreal. Many films have done this, in fact most films do, but Eyes Wide Shut looks so intensely at the nature of reality and perception itself and our culture's obsession with celebrity, money, sex, fantasy, violence, youth and so on that it feels like a novel. A visual novel. Once you are willing to look at things symbolically in the film, you see how things are quite symbolic in real life..relationships, motivations, feelings and so on - and the meaning of the film deepens as you realize how you construct meaning as a human being - imagination. EWS is the most unique look at imagination in film history in my opinion. It matched and succeeded Antoniony and Bergman in using film to look at the imagination and it's relationship to objective reality, the way it's used to construct an inner reality and it's conflict with the outer reality and the egos of others.
It's not as simple as Bill not accepting or allowing women to have desires. That is far too a blanket statement for Kubrick. It perhaps looks more at the nature of Bill's denial of a woman's desires. Not that they don't have them - just that he is terrified of them. He is fundamentally different from the Zeigler's of the world...he has some semblance of a conscience, he seems like a decent father to his daughter and so on. The way in which Bill satisfies his ego is tied to the way Zeigler satisfies his. Bill envies Zeigler, Zeigler envies Bill. They have a mutual satisfaction in their relationship that motivates their sexual drives that provide meanings to their identities, which increasingly use social status to flaunt and stimulate their narcissism, which defines their sexuality in the film.
Bill has probably considered cheating on his wife, but as we see when confronted with where the rainbow ends, he is hesitant and 'saved' by Zeigler and more specifically, Mandy. But he leaves his thoughts and desires firmly repressed, probably out of fear. It is a mutual fear in marriage. Alice has the same fears and desires, but being a woman is less inclined to repress due to the nature of male and female relationships, how the ego is served in a marriage. We get the impression that Zeigler wouldn't suffer the ego damage that Bill does if his wife gave him the Alice routine. I think it's Zeigler on the balcony at the orgy, and his wife next to him with the tear drop mask.
EWS looks at control. How the ego of the woman is controlled and denied to preserve the male ego. The connection between the male mind and the female body. The insecurity of the male body and the shame of nudity and the contrast to the desire for the female body and the stimulation of nudity in the female. THe power relationships of men to men and the fear of homosexuality and emasculation.

Good post before Xav...there is too much to type about the film.



Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride

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The movie is nor reality nor dream, it's metaphorical and should not be taken literally.
But yes, secret societies do exist, they're just not as over the top as the one in this movie.

This signature is hilarious and original.
NAAAT!

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Lol. No, Kubrick made it clear as day what he was doing with this movie. Then bit the dust. Everything in this movie is backed up by fact anyway. So even if it was purely coincidence everything sill checks out.

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"Eyes Wide Shut is a 1999 erotic thriller film loosely based upon Arthur Schnitzler's 1926 novella Traumnovelle (Dream Story). The book deals with the thoughts and psychological transformations of Doctor Fridolin over a two-day period after his wife confesses having had sexual fantasies involving another man. In this short time, he meets many people who give clues to the world Schnitzler creates. This culminates in the masquerade ball, a wondrous event of masked individualism, sex, and danger for Fridolin as the outsider."


Congratulations! You've read the Wikipedia articles on Eyes Wide Shut and Traumnovelle. That certainly dispels all those nasty conspiracy theories. Why even waste your time watching Eyes Wide Shut when Wikipedia can explain it for you.

Never again will I watch a movie for myself. I'll just click on Wikipedia and see what they have to say about it.

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newt_man2003

I have seen EWS several times. And like I said already my opinion is that it is a movie about an inner journey and not about exposing secret societies. I have read most of the theories on imdb and watched all the videos on youtube on the subject. And the more I look into the conspiracy theories the more ridiculous they seem to me. So rather than thinking that Kubrick was killed because he tackled a subject which hundreds of other writers, directors and etc. tackle on a daily base, or that there is a Saturn cult among the world's elite and so on I have a more mature opinion.

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You have a more mature opinion because you discredit fact and logical theory based on your ignorant response of it being "ridiculous"...? No you have a juvenile opinion, it's not mature because you are still very ignorant in regards to all of the information on secret societies, history and occultism. All you know is conspiracy theory and no actual fact.

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ljshorts

Really now? I am pretty sure I have read more on the subject of secret societies, history and occultism.

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I know that you haven't done enough reading because you wouldn't be dismissing the supposed "theories" if you understood they weren't theories at all. They're facts with evidence. Stanley Kubrick being killed is the only conspiracy theory, and even that is likely given the amount of evidence suggesting that. And if you make a movie about factual things that people aren't aware of, it's an expose.

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It's funny...you respond on nearly every thread about the "mystery" of this film spewing your phony bologna garbage about "facts". You haven't provided or cited a single fact yet.

You are far too invested in a work of fiction created by a filmmaker who is tackling a subject many filmmakers have tackled previously in the past. The film may crescendo around the mystery surrounding secret societies, but there is far more to the film than that and if Kubrick wanted to make a secret society film, I think he would have made a movie about secret societies, and not a man's night of sexual encounters.

Instead of living in a fantasy world because you read stuff on the internet you chose to believe despite the fact there is no evidence of it being true, why don't you ask yourself why you are so invested in this?

And your point about it being an expose also is odd to me...what was "uncovered" in this film exactly? There is a room with people in masks having sex. They are clearly apart of a secret society. It's not the possibility of sex cults had never been examined or considered before.

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my opinion is that it is a movie about an inner journey and not about exposing secret societies

Who's actually saying this movie is about "exposing" secret societies? That seems to be a personal hang-up on your part. This movie is primarily about following Bill Harford on his journey to his "come to Jesus moment" when he realizes that his role in society is fundamentally different than what he had previously imagined it was. But that journey take place in a dimension of reality, not in his head. He has real life experiences that propel him to his ultimate encounter with Red Cloak at Somerton, which leads to his own re-evaluation of his self-image and self worth. That there are "secret societies" (as you prefer to identify them) is merely incidental to the story of Bill's journey to his catharsis of self-discovery. Along the way, and secondarily, the movie necessarily makes a larger point about the nature of reality.

I have read most of the theories on imdb and watched all the videos on youtube on the subject.

I'm sorry.

And the more I look into the conspiracy theories the more ridiculous they seem to me. So rather than thinking that Kubrick was killed because he tackled a subject which hundreds of other writers, directors and etc. tackle on a daily base, or that there is a Saturn cult among the world's elite

That's fine. I don't necessarily subscribe to those theories either, but neither do I believe this is just a straight re-make of Traumnovelle on a bigger budget.

I have a more mature opinion.

I'm not really sure what constitutes a "mature" opinion. I commend you for giving thought to the movie. I would only offer that it's possible to imagine a much grander scope for this movie, other than a mere "re-make" of Traumnovelle on a Hollywood budget," without it's being classified as a conspiracy.

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Who's actually saying this movie is about "exposing" secret societies? - That there are "secret societies" (as you prefer to identify them) is merely incidental to the story of Bill's

Kubrick based a fictional story on the basis of real facts. Facts that are extremely important and controversial. Facts that people don't know about, because they are kept from the public. That constitutes an exposé, because it is exposing things that people generally aren't familiar with. Whether or not he was killed we will never know, but it is logical given the circumstances.

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________________JUNG.________________








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Happy birthday to the ground!!!

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The film is LOOSELY based on the novella and if you think there are no allusions to secret societies and conspiracies, you sir, are an idiot!

Google the term "eyes wide shut" and tell me what you come up with. :)

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Of course the film is about secret societies, like the Illuminati, Eyes Wide Shut simply means people once seeing the truth choose to remain ignorant to it... or perhaps hiding in plain sight...




www.jmberman.com
Online Mews, Reviews, Poetry, Music, and Ideas

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Kittysafe, I am happy you are exist :)

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Me too! Thanks ;)




www.jmberman.com
Online Mews, Reviews, Poetry, Music, and Ideas

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Thank you for pointing this out. People who deny that this film is about exposing the Illuminati etc. are the people Kubrick is specifically referring to in the title itself. They have their Eyes Wide Shut. They think they're completely cognizant but they actually are in denial.

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What is interesting and challenging about the film is how it combines - in a complex and ambiguous way - multiple levels, genres, and registers of reality, and does so in a very gradual, calm, and unsuspecting way. At first it seems like it might just be another limited domestic erotic or psychosexual drama about a smug, complacent, and vacuous upper-middle class bourgeois couple, but by the time we reach Somerton about half-way through the film, the central sequence in the film, we enter into another reality register altogether, that of the conspiracy thriller (analogous to such previous thrillers as The Parallax View, Conversation Piece, Chinatown among many other conspiracy thriller of the 1970s). But it isn't simply a flipping of genres here, a naïve move from one narrative form to another, but an undermining and scrambling of reality itself (and the ideology of genre), of ontology: the film isn't asking "Is this reality, is this real?" (an everyday epistemological question) but the more disturbing ontological question "What is reality? And what is the Real? And how do they connect?".

In short, the film isn't just about the trivial and banal everyday preoccupations of some stupid bourgeois couple and their 'marital problems' and sexual fixations, but is concerned with the wider political, social, existential and metaphysical issues of contemporary reality and society. It is concerned with issues of Power (the structures of power, including capital and money), with issues of Desire (the Real of desire and fantasy) and issues of Identity and intimacy. But above all, with how these complex process interconnect eg of how identity, self-image, symbolic role or position is structured by power and ideology, of how our everyday reality (ideology) is shaped and determined by symbolic fictions and unconscious fantasies. Someone else's fantasies, someone else's Desire ... And of how everyone, to varying degrees, is complicit in such a fiction, in such a reality, even when they fully know that they are, knowing it without really knowing that they 'know' it, knowing it but doing it anyway, as with the Harfords.

Yes, of course I completely agree, but aren't you actually completely wrong?

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Incredible! Almost line for line.....
Even the blindfold not being properly placed was spot on!

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Eyes Wide Shut may be based or inspired upon other material but that does not mean that his own views on other topics/ideas were not interwoven.

Paul Verhoeven's film Starship Troopers was based on Heinlein's novel yet has vastly different intents and themes.

There's credible evidence that Kubrick held views critical of the power structure some refer to as the New World Order or Illuminati. Rob Ager has produced some most interesting theories about Kubrick's works that can be viewed on his YouTube channel, Collative Learning that explores these topics.

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I recommend a more logical and down to Earth interpretation like this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkT6OGlrXhE

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I thought one of the top commenters in that video below put it quite well:

One thing which I've always hated so much about Film Critics is that they think that they can watch a film once, and give a definitive analysis of it. Kubrick's films are films which are so laden with subtext, symbolism, and the esoteric, that you can't possibly watch them once and grasp them definitively.


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^ Absolutely.
_

Kubrick's film - will always be the definitive version of The Shining.

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