Did people hate Anakin's fatherless birth? - Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace (1999) Discussion

[–] tenantennae 8 years ago

It reminded a lot of people of Jesus, which struck many as pretty lame and generic, not to mention unbecoming the character. Darth Vader was many things, but nobody ever associated him with Christ or thought of him as "the chosen one" before this movie.

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[–] lrdcharlton 8 years ago

I don't think people saw it as lame and generic some much,it was more insulting to the fans.As you said, nobody ever thought of Anakin being in the realm of somone who was the product of a virgin birth. I suspect they chose that route in a hasty effort to not have to delve into having a character be Anakins father.

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[–] otter 8 years ago

You're probably right, it was an expedient on the part of the writers, that didn't work any better than anything else in this worst film in the franchise.

They didn't want to leave the question of Anakin's father open, they didn't want to make her slavery to seem too awful (as they were going to leave her there) so they couldn't have her be raped, they couldn't give her an ordinary husband, and they couldn't have her be someone who just didn't know who the father was as they wanted to present her as the saintly Madonna type who needed rescuing in the second film rather than a slut. IMHO they went too far there, the whole immaculate conception thing was ludicrous.

“Seventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

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[–] floppylobster-86-283328 8 years ago

I'm with tenantennae. My recollection was that it reminded everyone of Jesus.

Name one other famous fictional character that was born from a virgin birth. It's almost impossible not to instantly think of Jesus when you hear the line and in doing so it takes you out of the film.

I have no problem with the idea or the concept. But the execution of it was a little jarring. I can't remember Shmi's line but it was forced and came across as unnecessary exposition. Like she wanted to make the point that it was a virgin birth, rather than saying something like, 'I've never been with anyone'. It just made it sound odd.

Plus you have to wonder, is she lying? Was she drunk or drugged when it happened? Was it rape that she has blocked from her mind? To make it seem more natural and believable the information should have come from some other source like a medical droid. Perhaps that Qui-Gon had asked to perform some checks. He could then try to verify that information with Shmi (if you want to keep the scene of them talking).

And in the end what did it mean to the story? Where was the pay off? Why did Anakin never ask about his father? It just ended up being kind of pointless exposition for the audience.

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[–] zaphod67 8 years ago

Name one other famous fictional character that was born from a virgin birth.

Right off the top of my head, Herakles and Perseus. There's a lot more. It's a common theme in mythology.

Time to make up a new signature.

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[–] tenantennae 8 years ago

Both "divine" pregnancies, but not sexless. Shapeshifting aside, Zeus liked to make babies the old fashioned way.

I'm sure there are other examples in mythology, but Jesus is certainly the most famous and the only one the average moviegoer is going to know.

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[–] zaphod67 8 years ago

Both "divine" pregnancies, but not sexless. Shapeshifting aside, Zeus liked to make babies the old fashioned way.

Not from the point of view of the mothers. As far as they were concerned it was a virgin birth.

I'm sure there are other examples in mythology, but Jesus is certainly the most famous and the only one the average moviegoer is going to know.

Which isn't particularly complimentary on the current state of the educational system. I remember being taught about that stuff in elementary school (which was quite a bit longer than I care to acknowledge).

But beyond that, Lucas filled the Star Wars movies with different mythological influences from a wide variety of sources. The story of inadvertent incest (in the case of Star Wars, it was narrowly avoided) is present in a variety of sources which might not be familiar to the average moviegoer, including Kullervo in the Kalevala.

In Attack of the Clones, when Anakin vowed to find a way to keep from dying, I immediately thought of Gilgamesh.

Even the first time I watched Star Wars, just a month shy of my 10th birthday, I immediately recognized Obi Wan as being like Merlin and the lightsaber as being like Excalibur.

Time to make up a new signature.

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[–] Lunchbox-3 8 years ago

Not from the point of view of the mothers. As far as they were concerned it was a virgin birth.

Not true of Heracles. Zeus disguised himself as Alcmene's husband and impregnated her the old fashioned way. At least she wouldn't have said "there was no father" like Shmi did.

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[–] zaphod67 8 years ago

Point taken.

Time to make up a new signature.

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[–] AndrewGS 8 years ago

For the first few years after first watching the movie I completely thought Shmi was just being hyperbolic, that there was a father but practically hadn't been, and I still think that's a valid interpretation. If Anakin really didn't have a father that's OK but a bit underdeveloped.

I don't mind the midichlorians, maybe it's a little too exact and detailed but the original trilogy did basically have a scientific/biological basis for the Force or Force powers with Luke being strong in the Force in part because his father had been.

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[–] death-lord 8 years ago

Let's compare maz kanata to this dreadful scene

The character is maz kanata is less of a Merlin figure(like yoda was) but is more like lady of the lake...I noticed this after many viewings...she gives exculiber to Arthur(Rey)

Now let's compare this to the virgin birth

"so vader is space Jesus"?

Lack of nuance(overrated as it can be as a filmmaking technique) can ruin scenes. Another thing is that the film was *beep* your movie has to essentially earn the Christ figure...why else include Jesus. You have to make your film great BEFORE putting in themes. This made a neutral scene worse

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[–] Aticusfinch 8 years ago

the original trilogy did basically have a scientific/biological basis for the Force or Force powers with Luke being strong in the Force in part because his father had been.

It most certainly did not; such a thing was never stated in the OT.

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[–] AndrewGS 8 years ago

the original trilogy did basically have a scientific/biological basis for the Force or Force powers with Luke being strong in the Force in part because his father had been.

It most certainly did not; such a thing was never stated in the OT.

"The Force is strong in my family." Could be a description of a coincidence but it sure doesn't feel like one.
"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

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[–] death-lord 8 years ago

midis were not the problem though...the yoda arc of the clone wars took this *beep* idea and basically made it tolerable...it was that midis were a crappy plot-device for qui-gon to realize that anakin was space jesus...it didnt feed into the lore...it was just there to over-complicate things

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[–] Aticusfinch 8 years ago

"The Force is strong in my family." Could be a description of a coincidence but it sure doesn't feel like one.

Yes, it does; the fact that it is pointed out hints at it being something unusual; if the force transmitted genetically having several force sensitive people in the same family would be rather the rule.

"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

Maybe because it could cause Annakin to turn his back on the Emperor... as it actually happened in the end.

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[–] AndrewGS 8 years ago

"The Force is strong in my family." Could be a description of a coincidence but it sure doesn't feel like one.

Yes, it does; the fact that it is pointed out hints at it being something unusual; if the force transmitted genetically having several force sensitive people in the same family would be rather the rule.

Luke also claims that his sister has the power, seemingly because she's in his family and also descended from his father, even though there's no indication other than that familial connection that she has it.

"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

Maybe because it could cause Annakin to turn his back on the Emperor... as it actually happened in the end.

But Obi-Wan thinks that that couldn't happen; it's possible he initially did and just grew disillusioned as Vader served the Emperor for a long time but in the conversation he's trying to persuade Luke that that couldn't happen so I think the more likely explanation is that they would, due to their Force potential, pose a physical threat.

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[–] Aticusfinch 8 years ago

there's no indication other than that familial connection that she has it

Yes, there is; Luke and Leia had telepathic contact by the end of ESB.

in the conversation he's trying to persuade Luke that that couldn't happen so I think the more likely explanation is that they would, due to their Force potential, pose a physical threat.

If I remember well Obi-wan says something like "He´s more a machine than a man NOW", so he might very well have thought otherwise before; also the fact that actually Luke has turned out to be strong with the force may have contributed to him change his view and consider that there´s a better chance at Luke killing Vader than converting him to the bright side again.

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[–] AndrewGS 8 years ago

there's no indication other than that familial connection that she has it

Yes, there is; Luke and Leia had telepathic contact by the end of ESB.

Fair point although it was much more of a sending by Luke and there's not an indication that it could only be sent between people with Force powers.

There's also Obi-Wan's line "Your father wanted you to have this [lightsaber] when you were old enough." While the prequels make that actually a bit of a lie, the tone and intention seemed to be that the father wanted him to have it not just as a memento but to also become a Jedi with the belief that he would be able to. Alternately you could interpret that to mean almost anyone could develop Force powers and become a Jedi but it seems an indication there's a biological component (especially since Luke starts feeling and using the Force so quickly).

in the conversation he's trying to persuade Luke that that couldn't happen so I think the more likely explanation is that they would, due to their Force potential, pose a physical threat.

If I remember well Obi-wan says something like "He´s more a machine than a man NOW", so he might very well have thought otherwise before; also the fact that actually Luke has turned out to be strong with the force may have contributed to him change his view and consider that there´s a better chance at Luke killing Vader than converting him to the bright side again.

I think the conversation suggests that Obi-Wan gave up on Anakin and thought he couldn't been redeemed (both that Anakin was dead in a sense and more machine than man) since or soon after Anakin aligned with the Dark and they parted ways. But that's a possible interpretation.

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[–] Aticusfinch 8 years ago

there's not an indication that it could only be sent between people with Force powers.

But since there´s only indication to the opposite you carry the burden of the proof.

it seems an indication there's a biological component (especially since Luke starts feeling and using the Force so quickly).

Why? There are lots of succesful lawyers, entrepreneurs, doctors, engineers, businesspeople, artists, musicians, professors, writers ... who want their respective children to enter into their footsteps, and there isn´t any biological component to any of those disciplines.

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[–] generationofswine 8 years ago

I don't think the hatred necessarily stemmed from the fatherless birth and the implied Jesus reference.

I think, and it is certainly true for me, that it was the midichloreans the people didn't like. The fact that the Force could be quantified and analyzed scientifically.

Had he been conceived by the Force without the addition of "midichloreans counts" then the fanboy backlash would have been smaller and limited to the "I just hate everything religious" crowd.

"Few people understand the psychology of dealing with a highway traffic cop."

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[–] death-lord 8 years ago

pretty much this

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[–] ThatGuy25 8 years ago

Midichlorians and Anakin's birth were supposed to tie together. Plagius a Sirius were to perform rituals involving controlling midichlorians to create life (remember what palpatine said in the squid lake scene). They make Anakin a kid with a really high midichlorians count. This is the child, born of the force, that was supposed to bring Balance to the force.
Originally, palpatine was supposed to tell anakin that he was his father- or as close as he could get. Lucas cut it because it was too similar to the Luke/Vader "I'm your father" scene. He's probably right, it would've come off as a rip off moment no matter how you put the scene...

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[–] FlyingJ87 8 years ago

Um, what? Where are you getting this from? Did George say this? I mean, the movie does sorta imply Plagueis created Anakin through the dialogue in the opera scene, but now he and Palpatine performed rituals?

And ultimately, why are the midichlorians needed? How do they add anything? If the dialogue was just "he could use the Force to create life" you get the same result and nothing is lost.

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[–] ThatGuy25 8 years ago

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/lucas-original-concept-palpatine-as-anakins-father.19156374/

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[–] FlyingJ87 8 years ago

Okay, this still doesn't change that Midichlorians don't add anything necessary.

And wow, George actually had a better idea (relatively) and scrapped having Palpatine outright say it.

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[–] ThatGuy25 8 years ago

I'm not sure how I feel about it- it's a legitimately good idea, but the scene (finding out the bad guy is your father) would be too much like the infamous episode 5 scene, no matter how you did it the comparisons would be made. I believe it's still canon that Anakin is Palpatine sort-of-son. It's cool to think that the ending of Return of the Jedi is three generations of the same family confronting each other. And everything that's happened in the first two trilogies was from people of the same blood line, with a fourth generation in the sequel trilogy.
Midichlorians are poorly explained- from what I get it's physical evidence of the force within you. Not the force itself- which is channeled through it. If half of you is midichlorian- then you are the child of the force (Sidious just stuck it in Shmi). Midichlorians were already a part of the universe as early as the first star wars (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian/Legends- go to the Behind the Scenes section) here's an article where George actually explains them a lot better here (http://www.starwars.com/news/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians )too bad this explanation wasn't in the movie. I guess they just kept getting pushed back until Lucas decided to throw them into the exposition dump that made up 1/3+ of this movie. But the have been a part of Star wars since the beginning.
(I apologize for the long response)

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[–] ThatGuy25 8 years ago

Midichlorians channel the force... is a short simplified answer

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[–] ThatGuy25 8 years ago

It's world building

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[–] death-lord 8 years ago

No it isn't for several reasons

Midis play no part in the prequels beyond 2 scenes neither of which are good

Midis are horrible concepts...I don't care if it was planned since the beginning

If they were in the beginning...than why didn't they make it in the actual films?

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[–] FlyingJ87 8 years ago

And we NEEDED to know this because? Like many things in Lucas' earlier drafts of Star Wars, cutting it out is for the best. The Force is magic, and adding some scientific explanation for how certain people are able to tap into it is unecessary, beyond that it can pass from parent to child. Don't need an overexplanation for how the kids in Harry Potter can tap into magic, do we?

And even if it is in early drafts, fact is it didn't make it in, and now brining it up in the prequels years later when nobody refers to them in the OT (would think if they were so important Obi-Wan or Yoda would have talked about them) just seems out of place.

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[–] death-lord 8 years ago

there was a reason they were not included in the movies till lucas was given complete control...phantom menace was technically the first george lucas star wars movie(where he is 100 percent responsible)

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] barodabulldog 8 years ago

Yes, people hated the virgin birth, and Jar Jar, and the designed to sell video games pod race, and the battle droids, and the Gungans, and the boring dialog, and the chlidimorons.

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