Obvious conspiracy going on? Who cares!


Has anyone ever come up with a decent explanation for why the Jedi COMPLETELY forget about what they sent Obi-Wan to investigate? The Kaminoans (sp?) tell Obi-Wan that the army was created for the Republic, and Dooku straight up tells him that the Senate is under control of the Dark Lord of the Sith. So uhh, what the hell else information do they need? I guess Obi-Wan's like, "Naaa, whatever Dooku, I'm never gonna mention that to anyone else." And all the Jedi are like, "Yeah whatever, let's just forget about all that conspiracy stuff and go swing our sabers around."

I'm 15 years late here, and I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm honestly curious if someone has an explanation better than "Palpatine was clouding their minds".

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I'm not sure what you are exactly asking. The clones were created by the Jedi and the leader of army you are fighting says your leaders are under control of the Sith. This is from Obi-Wans POV, not sure why you think he should believe Dooku at all and IIRC Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace discuss the army but what they think is irrelevant.

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What Dooku offered Obi-Wan was to join him, "and together we can destroy the Sith". By the end of the film that discovered he himself was a Sith Lord or at the very least a Dark Sider which he had not told him. They already know that another Sith Lord was out there messing around since TPM given the "Always two there are" bit and at the start of ROTS everyone is already referring to Dooku as a Sith Lord so I take the implication was they figured it out by the end of AOTC. Not to mention that they knew the Sith had been allied with the Trade Federation before, a leading section of the Seperatists, during the Invasion of Naboo given Maul's presence hunting the queen and participating in the battle. (Which Dooku tried to account for by saying, "The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord. He came to me for help; he told me everything.") As Yoda puts it, "creating mistrust are his ways now". Why couldn't the (apparent) head of the rival faction try to do something like that to rift apart the Jedi and Senate in order to making fighting a war together more difficult if break them apart more fully? Obi-Wan actually does tell the Jedi about it. And even in spite of what I said prior Mace still asserts that "Nevertheless, I think we should keep a closer eye on the Senate" to which Yoda agrees. I dunno, for me personally that plot point with regards to Dooku.

The plot point I do find a bit more tricky, even as someone who likes the movie, is Jango. Given he has connections to both Dooku (being a part of the assassination plot against Amidala) and Kamino (being the template for the Clone Army). I don't think it's completely unfeasible that they might use them. Such mercenaries would naturally have multiple clients, and they wound up needing the Clones by necessity to rescue the large number of Jedi (including several council members) from the army on Geonosis. Not to mention they would have to run in opposition to the Senate at this point to not use them given that they wound up supporting the motion. But I will say I think that there could have been more suspicion about that showed from the Jedi on it in the end.

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I guess Obi-Wan's like, "Naaa, whatever Dooku, I'm never gonna mention that to anyone else."
Obi-Wan mentions it to Yoda and Windu. Near the end, Yoda reminds him that Dooku has turned to the dark side, so he may have been creating mistrust. Windu then suggests keeping a closer eye on the Senate, and Yoda agrees.

"Have to say, Jimmy - you turned into a real impressive fighter. If I was ol' Mengsk, I'd be runnin' scared from you, too."
"You really mean that, Tychus?"
"Nah. I was just kiddin'."

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The Jedi had been looking for Darth Sidious for years, yet were completely surprised when it turned out to be Palpatine, even after Dooku spilled the beans to Obi-Wan in Attack of the Clones. No investigation was done of Dooku's claims, and Yoda did absolutely nothing but support Palpatine throughout the Clone Wars, even when Palpatine said or did something that make the other Jedi go, "huh?"

Anakin: "I think Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord."

Mace: "A SITH LORD??!"

Anakin: "Yes. The one we've been looking for..."

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This is of course just me speaking for my own opinion. Naturally you're free to disagree, but I thought I'd just offer another perspective on this point.

I'd argue that Dooku didn't actually incriminate Palpatine specifically. He did present it as the "Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lord of the Sith" he went on to frame it as...

"Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious."

That's not the same thing as saying the Sith Lord is in the highest chair of the senate or that he was in direct control of everybody like the Supreme Chancellor would be. Especially when you consider just how many systems are actually in the Republic. With the opening crawl stating that "Several thousand solar systems" were joining the Seperatists or Dooku later stating "ten thousand more systems will rally to our cause with your support" to the Separatist Council as if that would be a notable shift but not everybody. Also of note, they knew that the Sith were involved with if not influencing the Trade Federation prior without being directly in command of them in the traditional business/political hierarchy.

It would still be a dangerous and frightening precedent, thought it would naturally depend on what ones he would have gotten. He was by all accounts telling the truth there, having direct power over them of course being a form of influence and thousands are comprised of hundreds, but I don't see how things weren't obscured enough to keep the Jedi guessing. It's done in a similar fashion to how Palpatine twisted around truth to manipulate Anakin or Obi-Wan contorting the story of his father to Luke in order to get him to fight Vader. In all cases they were loose with the details in order to push their intended listener in a certain direction. All using half-truths in a bid to pit certain people against each other. And as shown in ROTS, part of Palpatine's plan was to present the Jedi as enemies to the Republic which could've happened had they believed what he said, and later Windu kind of does when he declares the Senate and Courts too corrupt to be trusted when deciding to strike Sidious down.

I talked about it in my last post so I won't go into detail here, but there was also learning that Dooku himself was a Sith Lord or at the very least a Dark Sider, something he was not forthcoming to Obi-Wan about, after he was talking about trying to destroy the Sith which I don't think would make have made believing him any easier.

Sure the Jedi didn't really trust Palpatine prior, but at first at least that seemed to have more to do with not trusting him by virtue of the fact he was a politician. (The highest ranking one at that) As Obi-Wan puts it when talking to Anakin about the Senate...

"It's been my experience that Senators are only focused on pleasing those who fund their campaigns...and they are more than willing to forget the niceties of democracy to get those funds." And of the Chancellor himself, "Palpatine's a politician. I've observed that he is very clever at following the passions and prejudices of the Senators."

It's a distrust that Padme refers to when talking to Anakin on Naboo with the, "You really don't like politicians do you?" question. And prior Anakin himself when defending both she Palpatine during he and Obi-Wan's talk about politicians feels the need to assert that they are "different" from the others. It's arguably a distrurst that would also help convince Mace that he had to circumvent due process and kill and unarmed Palpatine later in ROTS. Though by that film given all the further executive power he's been given throughout the war and eventually going to far as appointing someone to the Jedi Council himself they did decide they needed to spy on him directly.

In all fairness I can see an argument to be had about Mace's line, "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The Dark Side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor." Even though Mace is later surprised to learn the truth with his, "A Sith Lord" exclamation after Anakin tells him about it. You could bring up how the Force is in all life without exceptions and intrinsically tied to emotions. Meaning you could theoretically be a bad man, something they did see him as, which would surround you with it but not wielding the power of the Dark Side.

Also notable is how the Jedi were intentionally portrayed as being detached and directly stated as arrogant. Yoda puts it as, "A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Hmm. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experience ones" during their conversation about Anakin. The only ones who don't go to quite the same degree as the others seeming to be he and Qui-Gon Jinn. We see it with how Obi-Wan speaks of those he refers to as "pathetic lifeforms" in TPM. We see it with the Jedi Council later in the film when they are skeptical not just about the Sith returning but how they could do it, "without us knowing". Similarly Windu and Ki-Adi-Mundi immediately shrug off the idea that Dooku could be behind the plot to assassinate Amidala by virtue of the fact he was a once a Jedi. Windu elaborating on that with, "He couldn't assassinate anyone. It's not in his character." Or there was the keeper of the archives Jocasta Nu who asserted, "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist!" when hearing the idea that the Archives could be incomplete. Mace shows arrogance later in that film when he's confident his brigade of Jedi could take on Dooku's army with the retort, "I don't think so" to Dooku's assertion that they are, "impossibly outnumbered" which proves to be right given that the Clones need to fly in and save them at the eleventh hour.

A lot of that is united in the idea that at the start of the trilogy the Jedi believe they are on top of everything in the galaxy. Being relatively unchallenged for a millennia could do that. But even with the Dark Side clouding their vision they'd refuse to believe that under their watch over the Galaxy the Sith could get so far. Obi-Wan says as much during the scene where Dooku speaks to him in his cell with, "No that's not possible. The Jedi would be aware of it." And even after hearing more of Dooku has to say he plainly states, "I don't believe you." At every stage they are skeptical until undeniably proven wrong. Like them only coming around to consider the possibility of the Sith being around after testing Anakin where they begin to think that he could very well be the Chosen One due to his power and potential, whose purpose is said to be destroying the Sith. And it only becomes confirmed for them after the final confrontation with Maul. They refused to believe that one of their own like Dooku could have possibly fallen as far as he did until the investigation into the assassination plot led back to him and unveiled his villains intents as well as his embracing of the Dark Side. Or Jocasta's assertions about how Kamino couldn't possibly exist without being on their records until it is discovered and the subsequent investigation spirals into the Clone War. And they didn't believe the Sith could have attained such direct influence over the Republic until their spy reports a confession after which they decide to confront him themselves.

They seem to grow a little wiser after the Battle of Geonosis when they agree that a closer eye needs to kept on the Senate. And later when they decide that there may very well be more going on with Palpatine than bog standard political corruption when they decide to want him spied on. And Mace does turn out to be correct with his assertion of there being a plot to destroy the Jedi. Though they arguably didn't wizen up as much as they needed to, given that they were still taken off-guard that Palpatine was the Sith Lord. And of course by then it was arguably too late to be able to stop him and buckling to the pressure Windu succumbed to sacrificing the Jedi Code at a pivotal moment.

So it comes down to the question of whether or not the Jedi made the right decision to try and play things a bit safe but not full buy what he was saying. Or perhaps more accurately, a decision I could blame them for making. And really, I don't know how I'd answer given the circumstances of who they heard it from and what they'd learn about him. But either way the idea presented was that the Jedi should have been less conceited in their waning power and been more wary of something like this happening and yes I believe should have ultimately been able to look more inwardly for the Sith. And they did make an agreement to watch the Senate, who Dooku was incriminating in a broad sense anyway rather than Palpatine in specific. I personally don't think the plot point concerning Dooku all that terribly handled myself.

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Thanks for the replies. I feel a little dumb for forgetting the dialogue of the last scene with Yoda/Obi/Mace. "Creating mistrust is Dooku" is still pretty lame though. The Jedi know that the clone army was ordered in secret for the Republic about 10 years ago, right around when Palpatine became Chancellor. They say they'll keep a closer eye on Palpatine, but when we see Ep III it's as if they'd totally forgotten to about him (MACE: A Sith Lord!?").

I guess I can accept Lucas' point that the Jedi are arrogant and Palpatine was clouding their vision, but he probably should've done more to emphasize Palpatine's powers. As it is it just seems like the Jedi are nonsensically oblivious and stupid.

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The Jedi had been friends with Palpatine since they helped him and his planet fight off the Trade Federation and the Sith in TPM, they certainly believe he is corrupt per Obi-Wan in RotS but a Sith Lord is quite the leap for the old man they have known. I mean its quite silly to think of a big bad Sith Lord controlling the CIS as an old senator they have known for years

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Not only that, but it was apparently ordered by a Jedi who died about 10 years ago too. It's incredibly suspicious, but the prequels make it seem like the Jedi just left it on the back-burner for years and never really looked into it. I'm sure the Clone Wars series probably made some excuse for it (years after the fact), but when you need to rely on a TV series to explain these things that's not something the writer and director should be proud of.

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Not only that, but it was apparently ordered by a Jedi who died about 10 years ago too. It's incredibly suspicious, but the prequels make it seem like the Jedi just left it on the back-burner for years and never really looked into it.
Well, further questioning Lama Su would've done them no good because, as far as he knew, the order was placed by Sifo-Dyas.

"Have to say, Jimmy - you turned into a real impressive fighter. If I was ol' Mengsk, I'd be runnin' scared from you, too."
"You really mean that, Tychus?"
"Nah. I was just kiddin'."

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So there's nothing else they could do? Like, I don't know, looking further into this Jedi's death? How about questioning others at the facility? How about putting 2 and 2 together that the order being placed and the Jedi's death both happened right around when Palpatine first became Chancellor? And that now, just as this clone army has enough troops ready for a war, Palpatine is asking for more power due to another political crisis? Oh, wait, I forgot, the protagonists of the prequels are literally incapable of critical thought. No, best to just wait a few years and then maybe start getting suspicious of Palpatine 

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Of course because you have seen the movie, that would be like in ANH saying that Luke is all of a sudden ready to leave Tatooine right as there is a crisis and Ben is discovered, why the hell didnt Obi-Wan investigate Luke?!?!?

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What? The two situations aren't comparable. Ben isn't "discovered." He reveals himself when Luke is in danger. And it's not like the Imperials know Obi-Wan Kenobi is on the planet. Furthermore, Luke owed his aunt and uncle, the people who raised him and the only family he had left.

Meanwhile, the odds circumstances behind the clones' creation, including the Jedi who supposedly ordered them right around when he also died, which also aligns with Palpatine becoming Chancellor, all add up but the Jedi think little of it beyond "yeah, I guess we should pay attention more," which results in nothing for years until Palpatine consciously reveals himself to Anakin as a Sith Lord right at the end of the damn war.

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Again you see it those ways because you have seen the movie. Ben was discovered, R2 hobbles all the way out there and had a personal message. Yes we know the circumstances to all of this but Obi-Wan doesnt, its all a big coincidence that Luke's Aunt and Uncle die so he has no reason to stay on Tatooine and there is a message for him drawing him out of hiding. If that was all a ruse you would call Obi-Wan the biggest idiot ever. Obi-Wan knows Luke like he knew Palpatine

Just like the clones are ready and there are clues that lead Obi-Wan to them. Also I dont get why you put the clones creating with Palpatine's ascension together, what does one have to do with the other? What does becoming chancellor from an emergency vote have to do with a Jedi ordering clones? These things arent related at all

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You can't be serious. What freakin' movies did you watch? You aren't making a lick of sense.

When is Obi-Wan "discovered?" By whom? He emerges when Luke is in danger because he's been watching out for Luke for the last 19 years. It's the whole reason he stayed on Tatooine! He didn't emerge because of the message; he had no idea about it until Luke brought it up. The Empire doesn't know he's there. Hell, they don't know that the droids are even looking for anybody in particular. All they know is they likely have the plans to the Death Star. And it's not until Luke and company are on board the Death Star that any Imperials know Obi-Wan is involved (and even then, Tarkin is reluctant to believe Vader, who only realized it thanks to the Force).

A coincidence that Owen and Beru died? Their deaths are the direct result of stormtroopers looking for the droids.

So wait, are you arguing that the clues were left intentionally to lead Obi-Wan to the clones? This despite Kamino being deleted from the Jedi archive?

And what the hell? The creation of the clones is absolutely necessary to Palpatine's ascension. How else would he have been able to get the Republic to fight a war where planets didn't want to risk many of their own people and there's no overarching military for the entire Republic that we know of? And remember, Palpatine was the one pushing for the military creation act. So now this army that just happens to be conveniently ready is discovered (this raises the further question of when and how Palpatine was going to have the clones revealed if Kenobi didn't stumble across them, again despite it being implied Kamino was deleted from the archive at his behest). It's all quite convenient for what Palpatine is pushing for: the need for war and granting him emergency powers.

And the clones being ordered by some Jedi right around the time Palpatine rose to Chancellor due to a political crisis, as well as said Jedi dying around this time, matters due to enough time having passsed that this army is just ready to fight a full-on war, right as a new political crisis emerges and Palpatine is again asking for more power so he can solve it. Even without knowing what happens in the movies, this isn't suspicious to you at all?

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Good lord you sound like a babbling moron, you dont even read what I write. All your "evidence" is yet again for the third time because you have seen the movie. You think Obi-Wan is reading the script or something? People just happen to be looking for him and coaxing him out of hiding. A Jedi ordering clones the same year a senator gets elected are not connected at all, again because you have seen the movie you know Palpatine ordered them for a civil war, but in reality, reality of the movie world, they are not connected at all from the information Obi-Wan has. They have no real evidence that Palpatine is the Sith lord himself, seeing as they helped Palpatine fight the Sith a couple times

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"Has anyone ever come up with a decent explanation for why the Jedi COMPLETELY forget about what they sent Obi-Wan to investigate?"

Yes: it's because Lucas is even more of a bad writer than a bad director.

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