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No Tuskegee Pilot Downed Nine German Fighters


The movie credits Lincoln Scott with 9 fighters destroyed in 30 missions.

In fact, none of the Tuskegee Airmen were officially credited with even five kills. The most likely ace was Lt. Lee "Buddy" Archer (no confusion with the Archer in the movie). The real Archer's score was 4.5 kills. I believe today he has been credited with five kills and given official ace status, though he has not seen much reason to make a statement about it. Yes, it was racism that kept Archer and others from being credited with five or more kills. Furthermore, bomber escort was more important to the Tuskegee Airmen than shooting down planes. That is how they "never lost a bomber to enemy air attack," and also means the dogfight scene in the movie probably didn't happen. But the pilots were not assigned bomber escort duty until June 1944, less than a year before the war ended. Still, they destroyed 409 German aircraft (in comparison, the highest-scoring 56th FG destroyed over 1000 planes).

Ace pilots were a minority of the Airmen who flew against the Germans and Japanese in WWII. But I've seen where movies today give out liberal kill tallies to fictitious pilots, as if to say the more kills, the better the pilot. Many times, a pilot never even saw an enemy aircraft on a mission. These men did a lot more than just shoot down planes. And by the way, some of the planes they destroyed never left the ground. They also shot up and bombed railroad cars, moving vehicles, roads and bridges. Most importantly, they provided air superiority. It was tremendous for a soldier or sailor to know, especially during an invasion like Normandy or Okinawa, that every plane in the sky that day was "one of ours."

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[deleted]

Thank you very much for the compliments. I'm a historian of US history. Of course, there are some things I know better than others... we're always learning.

I also build models of 1/48 scale aircraft, and last year I did a build of four planes of the Tuskegee Airmen for a display at the public library. Research for this display taught me a lot about the truth of their story.

If you want to learn more on the Tuskegee Airmen and blacks in WWII, a tremendous book I reccommend is Fighting For America: Black Soldiers- the Unsung Heroes of WWII by Christoher Paul Moore.

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[deleted]

"I'm a historian of US history"

as opposed to a Geographer of US history? :)

Sorry - couldn't resist.

Hahaha, yeah it does sound pretty funny. I think I said it that way because I know a lot of American history but I don't care too much about Ancient Rome or the Ming Dynasty or whatever.

Thanks for the comments on my posts. Happy movie-watching and discussing.

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Lorenzo D.

Very interesting and educational facts you have mentioned. I did not
know about these little known facts of war history before I read your
post. Here is an online site for you:http://www.761stcom/index.php?
This site tells about the U.S. Army's 761st Tank Battalion of
World War II made up entirely of black soldiers. They were very
courageous in fighting the Nazi war machine's German Panzer
and Tiger tank units in Western Europe. I learned of this site
from another movie buff through the IMDB as well. Check it out
for your own interest. And as you may know, German Field Marshal
Erwin Rommel detested the Nazi Party and it's ideals and was
opposed to Adolph Hitler as well. Rommel was never a member of
the Nazi Party and he often disagreed with other high ranking
officers who did support the party and what it stood for in
both Germany and the rest of occupied Europe. Just another fact
of WW II history to share.


Lorenzo/the birdman

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Lorenzo,
Thank you for your compliments. I enjoyed Hart's War as a movie but it does take liberty with the facts. I also knew about Rommel, at least that he may have taken part in one of the many plots to kill Hitler.

Thanks for the weblink, I will check it out. I imagine it probably mentions this, but Jackie Robinson was an officer in the 761st but he was court-martialed for refusing an order from a bus driver to move to the back of the bus. He was eventually acquitted from the charges.

Again, I recommend the book Fighting For America: Black Soldiers- the Unsung Heroes of WWII by Christopher Paul Moore. It's also available on unabridged CD. It really is the best book I have seen on this subject so far, featuring the stories of not just combat troops but also labor battalions, supply units and so on. Did you know that the army marching cadence "Sound Off" was begun by a black soldier? That story is in this book!

As for the Tuskegee Airmen, there is a new book out on them as well. Here are the links for both:

http://www.amazon.com/Fighting-America-Soldiers-Unsung-Heroes/dp/034545961X/sr=8-1/qid=1172071832/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-4158806-8753711?ie=UTF8&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/332nd-Fighter-Group-Tuskegee-Aviation/dp/1846030447/sr=1-4/qid=1172071952/ref=sr_1_4/102-4158806-8753711?ie=UTF8&s=books



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Lorenzo D.


Bryanac625, thank you for the information and I shall check out
those links. I do plan to get a copy of your recommended books
about the contributions of black GIs in World War II. I am a
member of the Military Book Club and will check for availability
through the club. I did not know that the army cadence was
started by a black soldier. And by the way, my own father was
stationed at Fort Sill, Oklahoma from 1946-48 and I recall my
dad told me years ago how there were many black soldiers
there as well though they were segregated from the whites.
And the very few black officers who were there were not even
welcome inside the base officers club! My dad at the time was
a 2nd lieutenant when he first arrived and he spent some time
at the club. Just some facts to share with you.


Lorenzo

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Lorenzo,
Very intersting stories of your dad's experiences. I understand about your book club, I have joined those before myself but if you notice, a lot of times you can get cheap books from Amazon.com. I think I saw the Christopher Moore book on the website for under $5. Bookfinder.com is also a great site for cheap books. Unless you care, books at that price are mostly used, remainders or defective. But, wherever you get them from, I hope you enjoy them.

BTW, have you seen the recent movie Flyboys? One of the pilots is a black man, based on the real person Eugene Jacques Bullard, who was from Columbus, GA, my father's hometown. It's an enjoyable movie that I reccommend.

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Lorenzo D.

Bryanac625, I thank you again for the additional information about
finding books at bargain prices. I will search Amazon for the one
by Christopher Paul Moore and no I have not seen the movie "Flyboys"
though after what you told me I will watch it, I work for
Best Buy in Florida and have bought many dvds from my employer.
Thanks again for the compliment and sharing information.


Lorenzo/tbirdman

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Sounds great, Lorenzo! Best to you and I hope you enjoy the book.
Bryan

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Individual U.S. fighter pilots in WWII, in general did not rack up the high kill scores of those of other nations, because they were rotated out of combat after a limited amount of time and/or missions. Our highest scoring ace was Richard Bong, with around 40 kills - contrast to German Erich Hartmann w/ 352 kills!

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<<Individual U.S. fighter pilots in WWII, in general did not rack up the high kill scores of those of other nations, because they were rotated out of combat after a limited amount of time and/or missions. Our highest scoring ace was Richard Bong, with around 40 kills - contrast to German Erich Hartmann w/ 352 kills!>>

Very true. But look at the quality of the American kills rather than the quantity. On December 23, 1944, Col. David Schilling shot down 99-victory ace OberFw Hein Bartels; Also in late 1944, Petty Officer Hiroyoshi Nishizawa (87 kills) was shot down by Lt. j.g. Harold Newell. The point is they shot down highly successful pilots that would have only increased their already outstanding kill totals.

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This is so true. German and Japanese pilots flew every single day, the only way they got rotated out was to get shot down and either captured, maimed or killed. Otherwise they were right back in the pilot's seat.

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<<Just a quick question because I'm not clear on this subject. How did one record .5 of a kill?>>

By participating with another pilot to destroy one enemy plane. For instance, you and your wingman work together to destroy a Dornier Do-217.

The one I wonder about is George Preddy's (352nd FG) score of 26.83 kills. Obviously, he destroyed 83% of an airplane, but who came up with that figure? It must have been a joke or something.

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[deleted]

Preddy had a third of a kill in there somewhere, along with a half.

.5 + .33 = .83

BTW, ever hear of "The Legless Wonder," Douglas Bader, a group captain with 242 Squadron in the RAF? He lost both legs in 1931 when his plane cartwheeled while he was screwing around with low-level aerobatics, but returned to flight status with prosthetic legs when WWII broke out. Anyway, Bader was such a cocky bastard that if a Luftwaffe fighter disengaged from combat with him, he officially claimed it as "frightened." :)

Bader was credited with 22 kills before being shot down and taken prisoner in August, 1941. (When he bailed out, his right leg prosthesis was trapped in the cockpit and he left without it. The Germans so respected him that they retrieved it, badly damaged, from the wreckage of his Spitfire, and repaired it for him. But they later threatened to take away both prostheses after he made several escape attempts.)

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[deleted]

[deleted]

There were two FW-190s that made a successful attack on the Normandy landings on the morning of June 6th. During the following night there were many bomber sorties over the beachheads that were not too successful due to allied AAA and night fighters. But overall, the Allies had complete air supremacy over Normandy.

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You must remember that most of Hartmann's kills were on the Eastern front against inferior Russian (and Polish) pilots and aircraft, particularly in the 1941-42 time frame. The great majority of his kills were basically sitting ducks, but if you read his bio you'll discover he found it increasingly difficult to shoot down Soviet aircraft as the war progressed. Which is not to say anybody EVER had a field day going up against him.

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Richard Bong ? With a last name like that, he had to be high-scoring ! :)



We Are The Mods ! We Are The Mods ! We Are - We Are - We Are The Mods ! (Quadrophenia)

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[deleted]

[deleted]

tuskegee airmen were combat heroes, despite the retcon that says they did nothing.. at the same time, there are plenty of "puffed up" stories of exaggerated heroism elsewhere in the conflict..

"With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility"
Stan Lee, 1962

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yes there were

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It's a Hollywood movie; it's not supposed to be accurate nor should anyone think they learn history from watching a Hollywood movie. Movies are products churned out to produce profits; nothing more, nothing less. I sort of feel sorry for anyone who watches a movie and thinks it is or is supposed to be a depiction of reality.

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In spite of what you think, many people DO believe the "history" they learn from watching a Hollywood movie. We as professional historians are well aware that more people will watch a movie about a subject than read a book on the subject and believe some, if not all, of what they see in a film. I've seen before where people believed "Saving Private Ryan" and the Memphis Belle story as presented in the 1990 movie were true stories.

And when another poster on this forum shared a story about the prisoners on the train spelling out the letters "POW" to stop their own allied fighters from attacking them, your comment was "I didn't believe the scene in the movie [was a true story] and I'm happy to be proven wrong." So you yourself learned history from watching a Hollywood movie that's "not supposed to be accurate."

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