...he asked Judy Greer out and she freaked out like that? That was a very sad scene. (I don't get why some women do that.) You could tell it was a leap of faith for him to ask her, and it backfired so badly.
I thought the follow-up scene was touching: Charlie going ahead and going to the orchid show alone and just looking at the women there as if they were flowers or works of art. You could feel his sense of longing and sadness.
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Exactly. Charlie asked an innocent question, but the waitress just started become slightly rude to him, talking quietly to her boss. You could easily see Kaufman's pain in that scene.
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It was painful to watch.
sharewell ok.... He asked her to take a trip with him over the weekend... that would be creepy, how bout coffee first, dinner, etc. than talk trips. she was just working for a tip, not a romp in a hotel room, which the trip implies. Plus it was creepy his masturbatory fantasies pretty much to any female he came in 'contact' with...
shareYes, reasonable argument. But then again that's the strength of this movie, it really shows all the weird moments in a man's life, even the really sad and empty ones. He is a loser (a sloth, a hermit), but at the same time I think she would have really enjoyed his sincerity and his brilliance. So she is the loser and not him (she's just some simple waitress, not to be stereotypical).
shareBite your tongue: she's not just some waitress, she's a Judy Greer waitress. Big difference. ;)
The war is not meant to be won... it is meant to be continuous.
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"Plus it was creepy his masturbatory fantasies pretty much to any female he came in 'contact' with"
That's men for you... some would hump just about anything in a skirt. (No Scottish jokes please) If you've ever read people's sexual fantasies written, men are much more likely to fantasise about strangers than women.
It's a hard one to read. Did she like him? Possibly a bit, but she wasn't *that* interested in orchids. And I think it was an overreaction on her part, but an overestimation on his part. Because he's awkward, he probably didn't think through what he was going to say.
Painful is the word I've seen many times on this thread... I agree... It just goes to show you should let someone down gently. Someone asked me out last year, and I had to try and work out how to say "no", but without actually hurting her.
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It's not "Sci-Fi", it's SF!
"Calvinism is a very liberal religious ethos." - Truekiwijoker
I found this scene touching too....
Fair enough, it was a bit wierd for him to straight out ask her if she wanted to go away for the weekend, but she was really flirting with him before that. so what if he asked her away....there was no need for her to react in such a rude way!
I have to admit, the first thing i thought when i saw this scene was....what a c**k tease! to flirt with him outragiously, and then completely humiliate him when he takes a leap of faith and asks her out! I hate girls like that!
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Well, I'm certainly not socially inadequate and I took her actions as flirting...
Of course, not overtly flirting, but I still think alot of people would percieve her actions in a flirtatious manner
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During my first viewing, I struggled to keep my eyes on the screen, tearing them away, then returning, tearing them away, then returning, whilst squirming in my seat. At points, I was covering my face with my hand, watching the scene through my fingers. Clenching my teeth as Charlie asked her. The heartbreaking awkward look... I was there with the sinking embarrassment and sadness Charlie felt and the oncoming bludgeon of loneliness.
Been there...
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"I, like God, do not play with dice and do not believe in coincidence."
Even though it was awkward and creepy of him to ask her away for the weekend after knowing her for a combined total of what im guessing is maximum a few hours, she did react extremely strongly....it was a switch of a flip, she could have simply said no or i cant, but she bugged out and her eyes bulged. but how effective, almost every guy probably thought of a similar moment in their life when they saw this scene.
and she was definitely just flirting for the tip.
A swelled head leads to a shrunken heart...
Yes, I agree that every guy has experienced a similar moment and that's what makes the scene so painful...
but I don't think she was flirting per se, let alone for a tip. Perhaps she was just trying to pass the time at an otherwise boring job by chatting with the customers. And I know a number of girls whose natural interaction with men comes off as flirty to the men, even though it was the last thing the girl had in mind. To many guys, just the act of an attractive woman talking nicely to them is seen as a flirtation. Women don't always see it the same way.
The war is not meant to be won... it is meant to be continuous.
Speaking as a woman, I can tell you that it was as uncomfortable for her as it was for him.
It's highly embarrassing to have to turn someone down. Take my word for it.
Here she is, just being friendly to him (or flirting for the tip) and he clumsily seizes on her mention that she likes orchids and comes off as some kinda orchid freak and then invites her for a weekend trip.
Of course her face would involuntarily betray how startled and freaked out she was and that she wouldn't find a nice way to say "no".
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Tee hee. If she was flirting for whatever, she should be ready to turn the man down.
shareNo, women DO see it that way, but just pretend it's not the case. Hence all the bullsh!t frustration that is "the game"...
Women don't just nicely talk up men for friendship in our society. They ignore men they don't want to talk to. Talk plainly to men that they need to talk to. And pretend they're NOT being flirtatious with men they might actually have an interest in. It's pretty standard stuff. The only wrench that gets throw into the situation is when women, to save face or pre-empt rejection, pretend that they weren't being flirtatious. That it was merely just "friendly conversation".
In this case, Adaptation, we're looking at a common flirt-for-tip scenario. It's why most men who might be attracted to a waitress, hostess, receptionist, or other similar profession might be inclined to lay off approaching. You can't always read whether it's a work-related flirtatious vibe, or does she ACTUALLY somehow find you appealing?
Since people rarely are good at distinguishing the difference, and so many false intentions are portrayed, it's no wonder we're all so F#@CKED UP!!
"just the act of an attractive woman talking nicely to them is seen as a flirtation."
Women should be aware about it, you know. For men, it's about the freaking physiology, not dumbness. It's like, a man will always think that if a woman walks naked in front of him, it means she wants to have sex. Same thing here.
Ok but guys cannot tell the difference between a woman JUST TALKING TO THEM and being the slightest bit interested in them. Men really, really, really need to learn when a woman is JUST BEING POLITE and JUST MAKING SMALL TALK and JUST HAVING A CONVERSATION.
And not even "just having a conversation". Much less than that. It's ridiculous how they think a woman *opening her mouth* and *acknowledging their presence* automatically means a date/roll in the hay.
I once had a guy stop me on the street to ask me something when I was going back home from a bar. I answered him because I'm a polite person and saw no immediate reason to rebuff him. He asked me things like where I was going and where I was from. I indulged him because of good manners and because I'm usually open to conversations, even with strangers. And we small talked- for literally no more than a minute. Not even two.
And he thought he was invited to bed with me and wanted to follow me home.
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you should have known that. I would be angry that you would have wasted my time for a fruitless conversation.
share*I* wasted HIS time? He wasted his own- and mine.
He followed me, stopped me and started asking me questions. Well, I answered.
What are you supposed to do, refuse to even talk? That's rude.
If he imagined it was anything more, he only has his own stupidity, cluelessness and completely baseless horny fantasies to blame.
He wildly jumped to conclusions, that's his fault.
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No, actually, it's not really HIS fault.
The fault lies with our society, or rather, women's constant need to play the disinterest/interest game... This is what causes such confusion from simple conversations. He's not assuming too much from you, he's just wondering if your lack of interest is yet another in the long line of bullsh!t games that he's dealt with.
Because women love to treat men that they're interested in with ZERO interest and play manipulative, cold games on a regular basis as a disgustingly accepted pre-rejection technique, nobody is able to tell what's going on. So many men, who don't give a sh!t, just ask any woman out or always assume that it's the game. Other men, like myself, just quietly bow out from the bullsh!t and decide that we're sick of trying to decipher between those who actually have no interest from those who are pretending to have no interest.
The thing that really sucks is that, for a guy like me, as soon as I hit the bottom where I REALLY didn't care about women's games and BS, that's when the interest came flooding in even heavier (as has long been documented in our society). So now when I actually GET interest, I wouldn't even know/care to pursue. It's kinda like a dog that's just been hit one too many times...
Yeah, so before you lambast future men who may awkwardly mis-read signals, please give a thought to the reality of the level of emotional sabotage and psychological torture that women have, and apparently will continue to with increasing intensity, put men through.....
Just a thought.
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You wanna talk some jive? I'll talk some jive! I'll talk some jive like you've never heard!!
Because women love to treat men that they're interested in with ZERO interest and play manipulative, cold games on a regular basis as a disgustingly accepted pre-rejection technique, nobody is able to tell what's going on. So many men, who don't give a sh!t, just ask any woman out or always assume that it's the game.So true! The confusion is caused by women because they play so many games that a guy can't know if they are pretending not to be interested in them or if they really truly aren't interested in them. (Men at least are honest in their own clumsy way. What you see is what you get.) I felt sorry for Charlie in that scene. I think a lot of guys can relate to that scene. At least once in your life (usually more than once), you guess wrong. But what can you do, when you are of the gender which is constantly forced to guess. share
I can't believe a misinterpreted conversation has been elevated into the dizzying heights of "emotional sabotage and psychological torture".
Enough of the gender war, please (message to majority of posters here).
he should have just said "wanna go watch john cusack and cameron diaz film scenes from a movie I wrote?"
Good night, Wesley. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning.
He never actually asked her to go. All he said was something like, "I'm going to this orchard show over the weekend..." (she freaks out here). He should've added something like, "Want me to make copies of some photos I'll be taking?"
sharethe way i see it, he could have approached the question in a very different way, and would have gotten a totally different result that had a better chance of being positive. sadly, though, we can all tell Charlie doesn't have that kind of talent. asking straight out the way he did was definitely not the best move. while he was sitting at the table i kept formulating what his next words should have been to lead to asking her to go with him to the Orchid show, but he didn't do it right at all. i felt really bad for him.
twas a very good movie.
3 reasons she's an *beep*
1: She starts gossiping about him right after he messes up. Just plain sad.
2: She could have least smiled, but she didn't even respond to the question, just kept on with the previous conversation with a worried expression.
3: A girl should be taking it as a compliment that she's being asked out, not freak out like he was a homicidal maniac.
Now i know he shouldn't have asked her the way he did, and that to reject someone is almost equal as painful as being rejected, but when you think about it, its really a luxury problem. Being asked out means that the one asking you out is opening their heart to get to you, they are the one sacrificing something to you. If i need to reject someone, i of course get nervous and find it hard to find something good to say back, but she didn't even try to understand the situation.
Now i know he shouldn't have asked her the way he did, and that to reject someone is almost equal as painful as being rejected, but when you think about it, its really a luxury problem. Being asked out means that the one asking you out is opening their heart to get to you, they are the one sacrificing something to you. If i need to reject someone, i of course get nervous and find it hard to find something good to say back, but she didn't even try to understand the situation.
Now that I think more about it. Perhaps it is because women crave attention too, just like Charlie. But sometimes they are not always in control how how flirtatious they can really be. Who is to blame? Nobody. Either way Kaufman is very brave for basically writing about HIS life, and how he has trouble with women.
Am I the only one who was somewhat surprised that Judy Whatever went nude for this movie? I mean out of all the films she could take it off in, she does it in this, for Charlie Kaufman, played by the now bastardized Nicolas Cage.
Now that I think about... the most awkward scene is probably when Charlie flies to NY, goes in an elevator but wouldn't get off when it stops at the New Yorker. Then Susan Orleans comes in and he's absolutely frozen in time. It's ridiculous.
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