I just don't buy it. I understand that there are many underlying issues, and the religious right has done much of the damage to their own agenda, but I find the entire process of abortion stomach-churning, and I can't swallow that a cheery ray of sunshine like Vera could perform them without even the slightest hesitation. It seems very dishonest to me.
shareIsn't that the whole point of the movie -- that Vera, being a "cheery ray of sunshine," believed that she was performing an invaluable, compassionate service? I doubt that everyone who performed illegal abortions in the mid-twentieth century, or who still performs them now in places where the act is prohibited, are all ill-intentioned, sinister people.
shareI don't think she had to be presented as sinister, but it just feels like they went out of their way to depict her as perfect. I really do try not to infer any agenda from Hollywood (or the British film industry for that matter) unless it's bludgeoning me, but their track record makes it awfully hard to give them the benefit of the doubt that this is somehow a fair and balanced look at the abortion debate. A little subtlety is sometimes a storyteller's best friend.
shareWho ever said this was intended to be a "fair and balanced" look at the abortion debate? Clearly, the filmmakers had an agenda in mind. That's not to say that the film is discredited by this agenda; I think it's quite believable that a woman like Vera could have existed, and truly believed that she was doing a valuable service for low income women in need.
shareFair point. SOMEONE was performing abortions back then, and the movie may have been based on someone like Vera, or a composite. She just came off as so perfect, and I guess I just appreciate subtlety. I had the same problem with Annette Bening's character in American Beauty. Did she have to be such a heartless, money-grubbing, vacuous beyotch? She was portrayed superbly, but a completely miserable person. I think there is generally humanity and depth to be found in even criminals and uptight church ladies underneath the surface, and likewise it bothers me when anyone, in real life or pop culture, is too much of a goody two shoes boy scout.
shareAlthough Vera was portrayed mostly in a positive light as someone who felt she was doing what was best for everyone involved, she is not depicted as such a saint. There is a brief scene between Vera, Stanley and Sid discussing Ethel and her Boyfriend's relationship. They joke about the couple as they are both shy individuals, this was two - faced of Vera who is usually nice to everyone.
"I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not".
Watch it again! It eas Sid and Stanley joking about Reg's size and his likely lack of dancing skills. Vera said nothing...merely continued knitting and looked up and smiled .
shareWomen having children they can't afford to feed or being spit on by society (as they would have been in 1950) for being an unwed mother is the real stomach churner. Vera's way of aborting the pregnancies was pretty gentle and she tried to be safe and sterile. Abortion needs to be safe and legal.
shareI completely agree :)
shareI don't think she's saintly at all. She performs a very risky procedure on a bunch of scared, vulnerable women, doesn't inform them of the risks, and then just runs off and leaves them to whatever fate. Not to mention the toll that it takes on her family. I think that she is clearly a kindly person, who views what she is doing as a kind act to help out women - note that she calls it "helping out young women" and refuses to view it as "abortion." She is too non-challant about it. She doesn't see the risks in what she is doing. She is set in a viewpoint of herself and what she does in the world that doesn't fully gel with reality. She is a person who genuinely cares and wants to help people, but she is self-deluded. To me, this film is a fascinating character study, not an approbation of abortion.
shareAm I the only one who thought she was doing it because she herself was the result of a unwed woman with an illegitimate child? There's a scene somewhere where her husband asks if Vera was ever told by her mother who her father was, and she says no. She probably knew very well how it was to grow up under such a stigma, and thought that she was helping others by avoiding it.
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They blew up Congress!
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No. You're not the only one and this was a theme that was both alluded to by her husband when he asked if she ever knew who her father was, and then again when the police asked her if this began because it happened to her as a girl. At the suggestion she nods slightly and begins to cry very hard. Its obvious that that is the reason that she not only performed the procedure for free, but also why she'd risk the happiness of her family life to help these young women. How else would she have learned to "make it come away and put them all right as rain?" She'd clearly been in their situation and Staunton does an excellent job of letting that secret part of her show in her face as some of the girls freak out before hand. Ergo, that is exactly what happened. As for the rich girl getting an easy, comfortably secret abortion - well, that was to show the difference in the poor class vs. the rich.
shareIt's possible that Vera was conflicted earlier in her life, but by the time the film began, she was no longer conflicted. You can't have everything.
If you're this critical of a Mike Leigh film, I would hate to have a Michael Haneke marathon with you.
Yes you are right...Baby Murder is stomach-churning,and anyone that think it's not have no conscience whatsoever.Conscience is the Voice of God?
What does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul?
Your beliefs about abortion have coloured your perception of the film. I absolutely believe the character - I have absolutely NO problem with abortion. I am a mother, grandmother, and a active Christian. I'm also a doctor and I understand prenatal development. The human brain is completely absent for many months - during most of the pregnancy. Particularly in the early phases depicted in this film, there is absolutely NO brain whatsoever. If there is no brain, you don't have a person - and you certainly don't have a baby.
The lives of those young women would be completely and utterly destroyed by a pregnancy. You have to understand the times. I do not perform abortions, but I certainly have referred patients for abortion. I doubt you could find ONE person to say I am not kind and generous. Love and kindness are the most important things in my life - and to assist a woman in terminating a pregnancy that would be destructive to her - or aborting a fetus that has horrific birth defect - is KINDNESS.
What bothers me about the anti-choice crowd is the spectacular lies they tell - and apparently get away with it. They pretty much brainwash the public. I've seen their literature - it is breathtakingly bad - packed with lies and falsehoods. Perhaps you have been brainwashed by them, as well.
You know what they say... no one with missing teeth wears an Armani suit.
In light of recent comments by a certain Congressional candidate in Missouri, I have a hard time arguing with you, but I'm generally no defender of the religious right anyway. I think you're assuming a lot about me if you think I believe everything the pro-lifers say. I'm ardently libertarian, but I do believe abortion should be discouraged except in extreme cases. Hillary Clinton is right that it should be safe, legal - and RARE. What gets me is when some woman tells me that because I don't have a uterus, I'm not entitled to have an opinion (which is practically verbatim from a conversation I had just in the past week). It takes two to make a baby. I've also heard military people who say only those who have served should have an opinion that counts in our many military fiascoes, and I don't accept that either. At any rate, I would hope that minimizing abortion would be a goal we could all live with.
shareTHANK YOU for clarifying! I appreciate it. I would never suggest that being male, you cannot have an opinion - that's just ridiculous. Of course you can!!
The problem I have is that I know things most people don't have a clue about - I have seen things most people could never imagine. Even pro-choice people haven't a clue about much of what I have seen.
For example - schizophrenia, the WORST mental illness, is genetic. I have seen more homeless and homeless prostituting (often addicted) schizophrenics than most people could imagine. Who has sexual relations with a schizophrenic? Another schizophrenic. Are schizophrenics meticulous about birth control? Um... NO. I have had schizophrenic (female) patients who had FIFTEEN kids... and were pregnant again. They are schizophrenic - they think they will be able to keep the baby.
And I've had schizophrenic patients who had been adopted and raised in wonderful homes... but schizophrenia has a biological path that is usually not interruptable. Even reducing the odds of schizophrenia is possible - reducing the expression of those genes - but it requires the mother to do certain things before even getting pregnant! It's complicated.
That's just ONE type of circumstance, and you would be shocked at how common it is. 1/100 people is schizophrenic... and they often have many MANY kids. It's a big, big problem.
I think a lot of people think of unwanted pregnancies as in normal, healthy teens who were careless and/or irresponsible. But it is SO complicated! And there are horrific birth defects that I certainly would not wish to be born with. One senator or congressman - I don't recall which he is - wants women to carry DEAD fetuses until their bodies reject them! That is medically dangerous and incredibly ignorant - but this is where our extreme anti-abortion policies have taken us. It's a very, very scary thing to someone like me to see the laws piling up against abortion.
I see Vera Drake as absolutely a saint - she is helping women whose lives would be ruined by having a baby. We need safe, medical abortion available to all women because whether it is legal or not women will always have it.
I wish the anti-abortion crowd would focus on proper sex education and reduction of unwanted pregnancies. That would solve the problem.
I do sincerely appreciate your response. And I absolutely support your right to your opinion!
You know what they say... no one with missing teeth wears an Armani suit.
I was thinking during the film that the reason she had to be depicted as such a saint was so we believed she was truly helping these girls
Do guys like "the thing"?
They like it better than no thing.
cocobug1 said: "I was thinking during the film that the reason she had to be depicted as such a saint was so we believed she was truly helping these girls"
cocobug1 has it right. Vera was portrayed as a "saint" (I don't like using this term, but it will have to suffice for the moment), because it produced more drama; helped execute a better story. It would not have worked at all, if Vera had been portrayed as callous or cavalier about what she was doing. And it would have been a completely different story, if she'd been portrayed as a mercenary.
I believe some viewers -- and some people in this discussion -- are letting their own personal views on abortion colour their perception and appreciation of the movie and how it's presented. That is not meant to be a criticism.
I've not seen this movie, but I've seen clips, but again, I havent bothered, for the simple reason as you've said and has all but been confirmed, she is shown as saintly and innocent.
In the end, it doesnt matter what the cause is, abortion, poisoning elderly patients or shoving old ladies down manholes, these things are nothing more but manipulatve to the viewer to think of a cause as justified and opposition as intrusive.
You will be narrow-minded in your thinking if you deprive some poor soul the opportunity to shove grandma down the stairs. Shame on you!
Two favorites I have always recalled was the 80s Twilight Zone episode, Dead Run, where people are being taken to hell, and Designing Women, both showing a gay man as wide-eyed baby-faced and meek and gentle, especially when he reveals he is gay. Essentially the same face as Imelda Staunton, if you will.
The intentions in these portrayals and deliveries has always been apparent.
I don't think Vera Drake should have been shown as Typhoid Mary going at it, nor should these guys in these 80s programs should have been flaming queens, but brave souls one end and bloated, needle-nose authority figures the other end, again, it doesnt matter what the cause is, the intention is always the same.