Just putting it out there, I have a hunch he's not whom he seems?
Thoughts .....
I kinda thought that early on, like he was something's meat suit. Maybe something the BMol found took them over. None of their methods make sense. Work for them or get wiped out?
shareI think the tattoo has to mean something. I just don't know what. My guess is Thule, and we'll see him again even though we think he's dead?
shareToni's original rottweiller had the tattoo as well, so I am thinking it is just a mark that all trusted Men of letters hunters have.
You know like a BMoL way of microchipping their most valuable 'dogs' so to speak.
And I want the Thule to be involved.
Though went back and watched the Hitler episode the other day and in my usual way of bigging up probably huge inconsequential details. The ship that Dean accidentally destroys - the first thing he does is knock off the little union jack before he completely wrecks it and walks away. Hopeful foreshadowing????
Ah, I didn't notice that she had the tattoo too, but I still think it has to mean something. Until they tell us what it is exactly, I'm kind of left trying to make up reasons for why it's been focused on in several shots the way it has.
If I'm wrong and she didn't I'm sorry.
And it could mean something, just what is the question. It could be simply be marking their top hunters or it could be giving them special spell work done to protect or control their real 'pets' as Ketch seemed to recover hell of a quick from his arm.
But still think he's not monster in the sense of werewolf or vampire. At worse I think he may have been a boy/man who had sick tendencies and instead of real help he had his soul sucked out to serve the BMoL cause.
He seemed desperate to connect with Mary when he thought there was something there. Hell they could have sucked out his soul, because he seemed to just want her to himself like the way Sam wanted Dean to himself when he lost his soul as it made things better.
Plus Toni did say she had sort of plans for Mary as they viewed her as an asset. What those plans involve might be more than simply getting info out of her. But as you said we have to guess so much right now.
I'm not sure about him being soulless. It's possible, but I think he genuinely likes Mary. He sees her as a kindred spirit. I think it's why he comes across as almost jealous of her sons, not because he wants that kind of relationship with her, obviously, but because he sees them as a liability, and he doesn't want anything like what happened to Mick to happen to her or worse, as he knows what the BMoL do to unruly hunters. I think he was sincere in wanting to spare her from Toni. I just also think that he's so wrapped up in the BMoL ethos, he's unable to break free from it even a little, the way Mick did.
When Sam was soulless, I think he really only wanted Dean around for self preservation in that he knew how far willing Dean was to go to protect him, and he needed someone, like Dean, who knew him to keep him relatively in line, again for self preservation reasons, because he had no idea what lines were okay to cross and which ones weren't. I think that for self preservation reasons, he wouldn't have stuck his neck out for Dean if Dean needed it unless he thought he might need Dean as cannon fodder later. In a way, I guess you could say that maybe the BMoL have made Ketch soulless, but not in a literal sense.
I agree he genuinely sees Mary as a kindred spirit and doesn't want to lose that, but I'm not sure if he is truly capable of liking anyone. He's a psycho who likes control.
Probably why him and Toni didn't work out - both are nuts and want control.
I agree he is too tied to the MoL to try and break free like Mick and he definitely started out as human at least.
But I think the way the showed Mick's upbringing it wouldn't have been a stretch to wonder if Ketch was just a kid who if he had had the proper help before the men of letters got hold of him could have turned out like Dean. Knowing what he's capable of but having the structure and tools not to give into his darker tendencies. Which even though I can't see the character changing kind of makes him a little sympathetic and would make a bit of sense of how his feelings about Mary, he's jealous of anything she has to do with her sons. It's like he wants a mother and a lover who backs him up all at the same time.
But definately agree that Ketch can be described as soulless even if it turns out not to be in the literal sense. But it possible that it could be literal too as they've said everyone has a slightly different reaction when their soul is removed.
As for when Sam was soulless, I think him wanting Dean around wasn't exactly simple self preservation. Sure he would be happy to use Dean and wouldn't sick his neck out for him but I think he found life easier with Dean around. Like Dean being around made his memories and actions made more sense and he had someone who he truly trusted to help with his social cues in a way Samuel and the Campbells couldn't.
In a way it could be argued Ketch could be wanting something similar from Mary, as well as the sex. But he could want that from just being a lonely twisted nut job too.
Does he really need to be something else than human?
You know what I would like to happen, the Brits being really run by the Thule and them not knowing. If that is the case all Ketch needs to be is like Mick, if he had been raised by others and not by the men of letters he may have turned out very differently.
Interesting thoughts, it's just that Ketch doesn't feel at all real to me. Especially when he was interrogating shape-shifter Mary. He laid into the real Mary with force like no other hunter has been seen doing. He appears personality-wise, too smooth to be human. Mick was a bit rough around the edges, even though he was tainted. He felt human. Ketch stands out as much more ruthless, his ways are far different that remind me a little of Gordon Walker, he's obsessed with the kill no matter who gets in the way. Sam and Dean are, but not to this degree?
I still think he's NOT HUMAN, but we will see. I just don't trust the man.
Do you think it is possible he's a human with his soul removed??? Would explain how he acts, either that he is just so sick in the head that is the way he is because I don't think we are meant to trust him.
But don't think he's a monster in the sense of witch, werewolf or vampire.
Nice thoughts FP, he could be soulless because he does remind me a bit of when Sam was. He has that ora about him like he doesn't act like a human does. He is tough, but it's more than that. And I am with you, that I don't think we are meant to trust him, he's the whole point.
Oh I agree he is tough Bella.
He may be augmented in some way or literally soulless but as I replied to Clueless it is possible he was a kid that the men of letters took in and basically abused to give us Ketch as now.
Doesn't mean he's ever going to become a frenemy of the boys.
I think he's human but messed up by BMOL early years training and teachings. It's a scary fact that humans can be brainwashed easily and effectively. Just looked at the crazy wars going on around the world. We're not born to hate, we're taught.
I personally am weary of the BMOL. It's been proven they're not particularly smart. And wiping out all monsters in the UK is no big deal - have you seen the size of the UK? And, anyway, I don't think they have. You can't kill ALL monsters. There's never any guarantee. Every horror movie ends with a monster egg about to hatch or whatever.
So I'm ready for the BMOL to be gone. The whole concept was a fail IMO. And Mary and Sam eagerly joining up without investigation or thought is more irritating than anything else. It could have been a great idea had the BMOL made sense - but this "wipe out everything bad" notion just didn't work - plus it's not the British way. I'm a former Brit. We just ain't like that. We're nice.
Anyhoo - I think Ketch is human. I like the actor. I liked the actor playing Mick. They both got a raw deal in terms of writing. Although I did like the 'gray' areas of their characters that the writers attempted to introduce in the latter part of the season. Flat black/white characters (such as Lady Twatface) just don't work on TV any more.
It isn't as much that they have Mary join up, I've lost hope with her. But that they have Sam do it when the BMoL are up front about their aims and methods.
He can't pretend that he and Mary didn't know what was going to be Pierce's fate. He's seen how Toni worked, he had Mick and co explain extermination methodology with regard to Vampires. Pierce betraying them doesn't mean that Sam can pretend that the man wasn't going to his death. And he signed up and said 'good' as Pierce was marched off. He's the one who talks about not simply killing monsters but hunting evil, who has met non lethal vamps but he signs up.
He and Dean were flat out told that the MoL gas werewolves and kill werewolves who haven't hurt anyone. Hell he gives up a name of one.
He had Mick try to kill Eileen right infront of him because of 'code' and he is still working with them???
Dean at least they've shown he's chaffing at working with them. Sam on the other hand is thriving. So I can't help but feel that Sam is more complicit with the what is going on with the way they have him pay lipservice on his doubts but sticking his fingers in his ears about the warning signs.
Also I can't help but wonder how the hell they are going to tie up the BMoL storyline because the brothers don't have the resources to deal with a world wide organisation they know little about. How can they secure the America? And if they can how they justify letting the rest of the world be at the mercy of the BMoL? Even if they do want to destroy them worldwide, what is the plan? Hess isn't the only elder.
So yeah humans are the worst!
But there is one character with the ability to be the hero in this storyline - Crowley. He's got the resources to take on the Brits where they live. If anything it could solve a lot of his problems as it would give demons something to focus on rather than scheming. But they've parked Crowley all season with the pissing contest with Lucifer.
If I could like your post, I would.
But there is one character with the ability to be the hero in this storyline - Crowley. He's got the resources to take on the Brits where they live. If anything it could solve a lot of his problems as it would give demons something to focus on rather than scheming. But they've parked Crowley all season with the pissing contest with Lucifer.
Yes, the worst kind - human.
shareYes, the worst kind - human.
I don't think they are Thule. The Thule seem to be more about using monsters and the MoL are about eradicating them.
shareThe BMoL and Thule both want world domination and expect total perfection and compliance though. I think the nod to the Nazis with Hess was intentional, but I can't say right now that anything will be done with it. I think it depends on whether or not they want to continue with the BMoL or not as to what they'll do. If they really want to wrap up the BMoL for good, then we won't see the 'Old Men' running the BMoL or find out anymore about them, but if they wanted, they could expand on them.
shareThere must be some kind of end game for both factions. Bmol want paradise so maybe they want Chuck. The Thule seem to want Armageddon so maybe they want Lucy or his off spring. The Bmol know the Winchester's are keys to both..
shareThe Thule as we have seen them seem to want power, not armageddon. Their methods seem to be if you aren't with them or aren't useful to them you are toast, just like the BMoL who are prepared to kill anything that gets in their way.
As for monsters, we haven't seen the Thule use monsters, they are humans who use magic so become monsters themselves. But we've seen the MoL use magic, look down on people and be prepared to eradicate anything that is against their plan.
In practice terms what is the difference?
Yeah the Thule thing was a reach. This season has me confused. Maybe they actually want Chuck and Bmol want Lucy?
shareThe BMoL just want control to my mind. I think they are pretty much what they say on the tin - they are against all supernatural monsters running free and they think that the brothers and US hunters are sloppy and have been allowed to run free rein for too long considering how close the world has come with the brothers being at the heart of it. I do believe they think they are helping because they believe their way works, just their way is all levels of wrong!
As for the Thule they aren't exactly much different in motive and action from what we've seen. They want control, they believe their way is right and the world would be better under their control. Anyone who doesn't fit or could be an inconvenience is tortured and killed just like the with the BMoL.
They are both essentially bond villain organisations just with added magic.
I know both me and Clueless, when we go on about the Thule being part of the BMoL are seeing it kind of like Hydra infiltrating Shield. Because if that is the case there is something of the MoL that could be salvaged, it becomes an the type of organisation as described by Henry again. A bit misguided but not into wholesale slaughter.
If it isn't then the legacy the brothers are part of, Henry, Dorothy even Delphine during WW2, well it is just as tainted as hell. Because really if Ketch and Toni and a school where they make children murder each other to prove their loyalty are reflections of the true face of the Men of Letters, no matter what their over riding motives what does that say about the legacy that the writers have said more aligns with Sam?
As for the BMoL wanting Chuck or Lucy. I think they wouldn't 'want' the likes of Lucy or Chuck or even Crowley, I think they believe they could take them but we haven't seen any men of letters actually go up against an organised demonic force. We've seen them send Mary to go after Ramiel but without the brothers being there that job would have gone further south than it did.
That's very true.Well put. I guess I was just wanting something more than just it is what it is.
shareI know both me and Clueless, when we go on about the Thule being part of the BMoL are seeing it kind of like Hydra infiltrating Shield. Because if that is the case there is something of the MoL that could be salvaged, it becomes an the type of organisation as described by Henry again. A bit misguided but not into wholesale slaughter.
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