How is it that after Angier's wife dies the two Borden twins don't have a discussion as to which knot was tied? You think that might have come up between the two before the funeral. How is that Borden tells Angier "I don't know" twice in the film as if he was unable to question his twin about it?
shareHe came in to demand an answer, and I told him the truth. That I have fought with myself over that night, one half of me swearing blind that I tied a simple slipknot, the other half convinced that I tied the Langford double. I can never know for sure.The Borden who came to the funeral is not the Borden who tied the knot. He could suspect what happened, but the other denied everything.
But wouldn't they be honest with each other? They are very close. Why would Freddy deny the truth to Alfred (especially when it's obvious anyway that Freddy did tie the Langford double).
"The tastes and weaknesses of an artist but [] no actual creative inspiration." -- Fitzgerald
Plothole indeed, among tons of others.
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I own you.
It's obvious to us, who watched closely the exchange between Freddie and Julia and the knot being re-tied at the last moment. It was not as obvious, though, for other characters who were preoccupied with their own business.
Being honest would mean accepting the guilt for Julia's death, even if unintended, and taking repercussions. Deniability is a strong motivator, and even strongest of us sometimes demote to infantile "It wasn't me, Mommy!".
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Oh my god! They killed Angier!
YOU BASTARDS!!!
But wouldn't they be honest with each other? They are very close
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I see what you're saying and I agree with the majority of your message. But I have to comment on the following line in your post:
Actually, the choice of letting the twin go to all the meetings with Robert was on purpose to have that honest "I don't know" answer.The Bordens didn't really choose which brother to send to "all the meetings with Robert". At Julia's funeral, the Borden who hadn't tied the knot turned up because the one who had tied the knot was probably too ashamed/couldn't deal with his own feelings of guilt to face the commemoration service. They couldn't have foreseen that Angier would ask "which knot did you tie?". And later during Borden's bullet catch trick, Angier showed up unexpectedly, so it was merely coincidence that the brother who hadn't tied the knot was being Borden (and not Fallon) that night.
I don't know if that's a plot-hole...
A real plot-hole would be the fact that NOBODY in Borden's life knew he had a twin. I mean both of them I assume would have attended school, made friends, possibly had jobs, interacted with others and maybe shared with others the fact that they had a twin brother. At what point did they decide to become magicians and start pulling off the 'Fallon' character?
I just find it hard to believe nobody ever recognized him and was like "Didn't you have a twin brother?"
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A real plot-hole would be the fact that NOBODY in Borden's life knew he had a twin.
He had written that he kept fighting with himself about which knot did he tie. I think that what it means is 'I kept fighting with my twin which knot did I tie. As he thought it was the easy knot but his twin didn't believe him.
shareBut he knew that Angier would read the diary. In fact he wrote it for Angier.
shareI don't think you know what plothole means
shareIt's a 'situation' (for lack of a better term) in the movie which is not explained/does not tie in with the rest of the plot. For example, if they had not shown what Borden did to Root (used him as the butt of his joke, hanging from the rafters) on Angier at the end of Angier's Disappearing Man show, we would have not had any idea what had happened to him (Root). That's a pot hole.
I hope this helps.
It's a 'situation' (for lack of a better term) in the movie which is not explained or does not tie in with the rest of the plot. For example, if they had *not* shown what Borden did to Root (used him as the butt of his joke on Angier, hanging from the rafters) to embarrass Angier at the end of Angier's Disappearing Man show, we would have not had any idea what had happened to him (Root). That's a plot hole. They did show this, so it was not a plot hole.
I hope this helps.
My assumption is that whichever one it was that tied the knot has blocked it from his memory because he feels responsible for her death. He's not lying when he says he can't remember, and he's not "the other one", he honestly just can't remember. It's not uncommon in situations like that...
We're from the planet Duplon. We are here to destroy you.share
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This might be a detail that you find annoying, but a "plot hole"?
The plot relies on Angier's belief that the wrong knot was tied, with deliberate arrogance, and that it was the cause of his wife's death. This is not a plot hole. Characters are allowed to be mistaken, unreasonable, inconsistent and hypocritical. Just like real people.
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Exactly.
The twin that is always asked, presumably Alfred, is not the one who tied the knot.
Of course, Alfred would have asked his twin brother, Freddy, which knot was tied, and Freddy either answered "I'm not sure" or "the correct knot". As the viewer knows, either answer is a lie. Alfred doubts his brother's veracity, especially since Freddy is kind of the screw-up of the two, so Alfred is never really sure about the truth. But Freddy is, of course, and he is clearly haunted by it.
The only plot hole regarding the knot might be this: Why didn't Angier or Cutter simply have a look at the knot while it was still tied to Angier's wife's corpse? Maybe Angier was too upset to be thinking clearly. However, you would think an astute fellow like Cutter would have checked that right away. Perhaps he did, and he knew the truth, but Cutter kept it to himself, because he thought it was enough that Borden had to live with his mistake.
Yes, but that was never put forward as the explanation as to why Alfred didn't know which knot was tied. The explanation was that in both cases, Angier was asking Alfred and not Freddy. I'll have to watch the film again to be sure but there is no scene in which it is even suggested that Freddy didn't know what knot he tied or that he knew which knot he tied and regretted it. If at some point Alfred or Freddy would have had a black eye and it was later revealed that it was because they got into a fight over the issue, or if the interaction between the two regarding the knot was ever in any way addressed or referenced, this plot hole would not exist.
However, I admit your plot hole is even more glaring and obvious. You really can't make up a reasonable explanation as to why no one would have noticed which knot was tied while it was still on Angier's corpse. At the very least, the coroner would have made a record of it. Also, why wasn't there a police investigation into the matter? Negligent homicide anyone?
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The office of coroner was formally established in England by Article 20 of the "Articles of Eyre" in September 1194. Coroners’ Inquests were held within forty-eight hours of a suspicious death, and were normally conducted at a local alehouse, parish workhouse or in the building in which the death occurred. Deaths among prisoners in custody were also subject to an automatic inquest.
share[deleted]
I think you're sort of asking the wrong question. There was never any doubt in my mind that both Bordens knew what happened that night as whichever of them was playing "Borden" would have discussed it with "Fallon". It was too important an event not to.
I think the real question is why Borden consistently claims not to know which knot was used. In my mind it can be explained any number of ways, some of which I'll get to in a moment.
One thing is for sure though, the diary excerpt posted by "MadWeather" is NOT an explanation for Borden being unable to remember which knot was used. Don't forget that the diary is eventually revealed to be a fake specifically designed to mislead Angier because of their later rivalry.
As for possible explanations, bear in mind that Borden and Angier were friends at the time of Julia's death. Borden meant no ill will toward her and certainly didn't intend to kill her!
So one possible reason is that Borden himself was sufficiently traumatised at having been a participant in the events leading to Julia's death that he has blocked it from his mind and genuinely can't remember which knot he used.
Fair enough, that's a bit of a stretch. So how about:
Borden knows he used the Langford double, but feels guilty because he knows he is responsible for Julia's death. When first asked which knot he used he can't bring himself to lie outright to his friend who is still grieving such a recent loss. But similarly he cannot condemn himself by confessing his culpability and the truth. So the answer "I just don't know" spills from his lips.
Now, each time he is asked again, it becomes harder still to lie outright or spill the beans, so he just continues to insist "I'm sorry. I cannot remember".
And the white lie told, in all likelihood to try and protect Angier from the awful truth, becomes the only answer Borden can give.
To me that seems the most likely reason. A lie given cannot be retracted without proving that a lie was given in the first place. So Borden just digs his heels in harder and harder.
Either way I don't consider this to be a plot hole as such, just something that requires a little imagination from the viewer.
Put it simply...
Angier, blames Borden thinking he tied the quicker yet dangerous underwater knot..
Borden A, did tie the dangerous knot but later denied he ever did it..
Borden B, suspected that his brother was not telling the truth, so when asked both times, he said he "didn't know" as he couldn't bring himself to repeat his brother's possible lie...he truly didn't know as he wasn't there.
The real question is was Borden A guilty (or even considered himself guilty), for Julia's death...during the discussion we see Julia somewhat interested in the knot idea herself and later on stage, we see Borden nodding to Julia and she nods back....so it looks like she was in on it and Borden didn't tie the other knot without her consent!
Borden B could have approached Angier and told his twin secret...but he doesn't, for the show!...just like he never even told his wife or Olivia.
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wat are you lookin' at...î‚
"Borden A, did tie the dangerous knot but later denied he ever did it.. "
I guess you could make that assumption but that's never seen in the movie. I guess that's a good assumption to make. However, why no one checked which knot was tied on the wife's dead body is beyond me.