Just watched this film for the first time today. Quick question -- and I apologize if they've already been answered, but:
Do we know which Borden brother tied the knot that killed Angier's wife? And do we know which brother was executed? Just curious.
Thanks.
We know that the Borden who loved Olivia was executed; the surviving Borden says so to Angier in his dying moments ("I loved Sarah, he loved Olivia").
We don't know which Borden tied the fatal knot that killed Julia. However, I think it's almost certain that it's *not* the Borden who tied the knot at the first performance (when Julia's Watertank Escape went well). After the first shown performance, Borden and Cutter have a discussion about trying a different knot, and Cutter warns Borden and forbids to use the "Langford Double" knot because it's too dangerous. At the second shown performance, Borden ties the Langford Double because Julia wanted it and because his brother hadn't told him of Cutter's warning. Also, the first brother was shown to be bad at tying the simple slipknot (he fumbles and has to re-ty it), while the second brother wasn't (he ties the simple slipknot, then exchanges looks with Julia who gives him a meaningful nod, and he unties the slipknot and starts tying the Langford Double).
But there's no consensus about which of those two (Borden at first Watertank Escape performance and Borden at second, fatal performance) loved Sarah and which loved Olivia. Some people say that only one brother was a cocky troublemaker who was responsible for everything that went wrong, and that hence at both shows it was the brother who loved Olivia.
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Awesome. Thanks for the detailed response!!!
shareYou're welcome!
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Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0
there *are* hints. It all goes backwards from the scene with cut fingers. We assume that when Sarah wonders why they bleed as hard as in the first day, it's Freddie, since he snaps at her in un-Albert way. Hence, it's Freddie who cuts his fingers off voluntarily, and respectively, it's Albert who got it shot at the show after he said "I don't know"
One can tell in most scenes whether it is Alfred (the survivor who married Sarah) and Freddrick (who tied the knot, loved Olivia, and was executed.) But it isn't very easy.
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Alfred (the survivor who married Sarah)Technically, both brothers married Sarah, because both brothers were "Alfred". Or alternatively, neither brother married Sarah, because neither brother was really "Alfred" (because "Alfred" did not really exist; he was just a fake identity created by the combination of both brothers into one person).
Freddrick (who tied the knot, loved Olivia, and was executed.)What are the hints, clues and/or concrete evidence that Freddie/the brother who loved Olivia was the one who tied the fatal knot that led to Julia's death?
Only one Borden married Sarah. Fredrick didn't love her at all.
It had to be Fredrick because Alfred says he doesn't know what knot 'he' tied. Apparently Fredrick would not tell him, presumably out of guilt.
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Only one Borden married Sarah. Fredrick didn't love her at all.I don't think you understood what I wrote in my previous reply. Sure, Frederick didn't love her, only Albert loved her. But if the marriage certificate says "Alfred Borden", then which of the brothers legally married Sarah? It's either both brothers, because they were both "Alfred Borden", or neither brother, because "Alfred Borden" is a fake identity.
It had to be Fredrick because Alfred says he doesn't know what knot 'he' tied. Apparently Fredrick would not tell him, presumably out of guilt.What are the hints, clues and/or concrete evidence that it was Albert/the brother who loved Sarah who said he doesn't know which knot was tied?
Well, for fairness' sake, there *are* hints. It all goes backwards from the scene with cut fingers. We assume that when Sarah wonders why they bleed as hard as in the first day, it's Freddie, since he snaps at her in un-Albert way. Hence, it's Freddie who cuts his fingers off voluntarily, and respectively, it's Albert who got it shot at the show after he said "I don't know". Granted, it's a weak evidence (and prolonged exposure to baby cries *and* pain can make even a loving man testy beyond reason),but it's more than nothing.
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Oh my god! They killed Angier!
YOU BASTARDS!!!
I didn't mean to say that there were no hints. I was just interested to hear which hints, clues and evidence the-author would come up with. I too thought of the "We can't afford the bloody doctor back!" scene, but I'm still in doubt which Borden it was in that particular scene, because I'm a bit skeptic about the "exactly one Borden was a brash and volatile troublemaker" interpretation. And in that scene he also says to Sarah "I can still do card tricks. And there's also the big trick, the one that I told you about; the one they'll remember me for", which might indicate it was Albert, because probably only Albert would have previously confided to Sarah what serious plans he had for the future*.
So I was hoping that the-author might come up with other scenes and clues that I may have missed and that support the idea that Albert was the brother whose fingers were shot by Angier (since he seemed to be quite confident of his stance).
[*] Also, in the scene when Freddie was about to demonstrate the Bullet Catch trick to Sarah, and Sarah asked him "Is this the big trick, the one you told me about, that will make you famous?", it seemed to me that Freddie needed a moment to react, as if he was thinking "Huh, what big trick? I have never told you anything about a big trick."
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Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0
So I was hoping that the-author might come up with other scenes and clues that I may have missed and that support the idea that Albert was the brother whose fingers were shot by Angier[chuckle] The arguments you can possibly get from the-author may give you some idea about the-author's personality and prospects of having a fruitful discussions with him (spoiler: slim), but not much useful about the movie itself. I had enough arguing with him on the Memento board to tell.
And in that scene he also says to Sarah "I can still do card tricks. And there's also the big trick, the one that I told you about; the one they'll remember me for", which might indicate it was Albert, because probably only Albert would have previously confided to Sarah what serious plans he had for the future*.
Also, in the scene when Freddie was about to demonstrate the Bullet Catch trick to Sarah, and Sarah asked him "Is this the big trick, the one you told me about, that will make you famous?"
Okay, point taken. I just rewatched the scene where Freddie demonstrates the Bullet Catch trick to Sarah. I seem to have misremembered the dialogue (because Sarah doesn't say anything about "you told me", although that doesn't make much of a difference because she still referred to "the great trick") and also Freddie's reaction to Sarah. I could have sworn that Freddie needed a slight pause, and that he seemed somewhat anxious to change the topic back as quickly as possible. But in the actual scene, there's no such pause, and his reaction was not anxious but quite relaxed. The way he says "No, no, no, the world is not ready for that one yet" seemed actually as if he had told Sarah about it.
But I still find the "bandaging" scene quite ambiguous regarding which brother it was. In my view, the basic distinctive character traits of the twins are that Al is the more serious one, who looks for a family life and for stability, and who would worry about stuff like money and who is more strict about maintaining "rules"; while Freddie is more carefree, loves magic more, and likes to put up a show for people and pull pranks. (These distinctive characteristics were also reflected in their choice in women: Al falls for the dependable, grounded Sarah who spends time taking care after her little nephew, while Freddie falls for the flashy showgirl Olivia.) Borden in the bandaging scene shows character traits of Al, although some other elements in the scene seem to hint that he is Freddie.
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Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0
I still find the "bandaging" scene quite ambiguous regarding which brother it was.
It would be, except that it can be determined that it was Alfred that lost his finger in the bullet catch with Angier.Determined, how?
It seems likely (based on character and my opinion) that Fredrick was willing to lose his fingers to go forward in magic rather than give it up.The same could be said of Albert, who possibly saw their one great trick as the only way to escape poverty and his wonder ticket to start and provide for a family.
which of the brothers legally married Sarah
Is 'Alfred Borden a fake identity?
It wasn't as if Freddie said: "Okay, Al, you can marry Sarah, and on the days that I'm in the Borden role I'll pretend to be her husband. But when I meet a woman whom I like, I'll get to marry her too, and you'll have to pretend to be her husband on the days that I am Fallon."
there would have been no problem for Freddie, the brother who loved Olivia, to marry Olivia.
evidence that it was Albert/the brother who loved Sarah who said he doesn't know which knot was tied?
Alfred, as stated before. Fredrick was not there.Was not where? We're never shown the wedding ceremony.
No. Fredrick was not registered for a birth certificate, as stated by Angier in the book.It's been a while since I've read the book, but from what I remember, the twins did have birth certificates but one was later changed and falsified to hide the fact that they were twins.
Actually, that's exactly what happened.I really doubt it. When Olivia comes into their lives, Borden (presumably Al) writes "To open myself to the dangers of such an affair, I need assurances", which seems to indicate that Al thought of it in terms of "do we let our combined character Alfred Borden have an affair with Olivia, so that my brother Freddie can be with a loved one too, or not?"
No, that's a wrong conclusion. Alfred is married to Sarah. Fredrick could not marry Olivia until after Sarah killed herself.I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. If you're treating them as two separate people and it was only Al and not Freddie who married Sarah, then why could Freddie not marry Olivia until Sarah was dead?
You just have to follow Alfred throughout the film.It seems to me you're just dodging the question. If you have followed Alfred throughout the movie and you found things (how little they may be) that connect him, then say what those things are, so that we can follow him along your view too. And if you haven't, then it's no problem either, but just be open about it.
Why could Freddie not marry Olivia
How do I follow Alfred throughout the film? It seems to me you're just dodging the question
As stated before, Alfred is already married. The only way for Fredrick to get married would be to identify himself as Alfred's twin. Otherwise, they are one person and England did not allow two wives. I think this should be obvious to all, but I answered anyway.That's exactly my point all along. They both married Sarah, because they were both Alfred.
It's just that I don't want to take the time to detail every scene and which brother is being shown. I view this as the responsibility of the viewer, ie you.In other words, you're dodging the question.
You'll enjoy it more than if I make a cheat sheet.You have to be freakin' kidding me.
I've answered the question regarding significant scenes. Why do you feel someone has to provide all of the answers? Why not try to analyze it for yourself? The clues and hints are there. I got most of them during my first opening night viewing. (I only read the book after seeing the film). If you are still at a lose, maybe start a thread and let others comment on different scenes.You're the one in this thread who, after I wrote an answer to the OP that the knot-tier can't be determined, came in claiming that "one can tell in most scenes" and that Freddie tied the fatal knot. Well, then you can't fault me for requesting you to put your money where your mouth is.
As to your question on the book, Angier digs up the birth certificates of Alfred's brothers, finds them and determines that they look nothing like Alfred. Fredrick was never registered, nor did he have a birth certificate. (Maybe they took turns going to school?)Because the Bordens had messed with the records afterwards, if I remember correctly. I think the journalist eventually found out about the doctoring of certificates and tells Angier about it.
They both married Sarah
You have to be freakin' kidding me.
No. I've told you before, only Alfred married Sarah.I know what you've told me. But you're contradicting yourself. On one hand you say that only Al married Sarah. But on the other hand you say "they are one person and England did not allow two wives", which means that it's not as simple as "only Al married Sarah".
Alfred and Fredrick switched places after that.
But only one married Sarah. It's very simple.
Nope. I can't tell whether you haven't tried to differentiate the brothers or you have tried and utterly failed.Then apparently you can't read. Because I already wrote "It's like a carpet that doesn't fit: when I flatten it out in one corner, it crumples up in another."
Either way, not my job to tell you scene by scene who it is and how one can tell. what do you have to gain from it?Since you claim that the brothers can be tracked throughout the movie and the brother can be determined in each scene, the onus is on you to prove it. Otherwise, your claim doesn't amount to much, and you could have just refrained from responding in this thread.
I prefer to discuss Nolan's foreshadowing, the Chinese magician, and the real Prestige.Then why did you come to this thread in the first place? This thread is about which Borden was which in each scene. Hence the title "Which Borden?"
Am I really the only person who thought it was easy to tell the brothers apart?No, I'm certain you're not the only one who thought it was easy, just like how there are plenty of viewers who, for example, were convinced that it was easy to tell that Tesla was a conman and that the Tesla Machine didn't work at all, or that it was easy to tell that Angier in the watertank in the final scene was still alive. The difference though is that those people were able to articulate why they were convinced of their interpretation.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwHQyechNm0
Alfred married Sarah.
How do you fail to grasp this?
you can't read
prove it
interpretation
EVH
:sigh: "Pay me"? Nobody is going to pay money for nonsense. The only thing I'm willing to pay you is attention, but I think I've already paid you enough of that. Your explanations in this thread have been displays of incomplete reasoning and circular reasoning, and sound like a broken record. Sadly, I don't have much hope for improvement, so I'll leave it at that.
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Joe Satriani - "Always With Me, Always With You"
http://youtu.be/VI57QHL6ge0
I don't have much hope for improvement
so I'll leave
The real trick to this movie is the machine. It's not real, once you figure out why your mind will be blown!
shareBecause it is a movie.
Sorry Dude, the machine is real as far as the film.
Fan fiction, that's a whole different game.
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