Was anyone else disappointed in Lord Angier's death?
I found him a much more likeable character than that other bloke. Sure, he framed the twin for murder and killed off alot of clones, but he was a great showman!
shareI found him a much more likeable character than that other bloke. Sure, he framed the twin for murder and killed off alot of clones, but he was a great showman!
shareDo we know for certain that he's dead? Surely Angier must have anticipated that Bordon had one more trick up his sleeve (whether it be Fallon or whoever Angier thought was working with Bordon as the second man). He must surely have considered the possibility that Bordon's "friend" would come looking for him.
What if Angier sacrificed his life at the end to finally find out the secret. He knew that only after Bordon's death could he find out once and for all.
Plus Angier gives a speech about the sacrifice he has made but in reality THAT Angier has made no sacrifice yet. He has no memories of drowning because he hadn't experience that (he only has memories of standing there then zapping into a new place).
Maybe Angier had the last laugh. The Angier we see at the end being his last copy; a copy willing (like the others were) to die for that obsession.
I like to think the true Angier was in the shadows listening. And he finally discovered Bordon's secret.
Nice.
shareSurely Angier must have anticipated that Bordon had one more trick up his sleeve
What if Angier sacrificed his life at the end to finally find out the secret.In fact, Angier is *not* really willing to die for his sacrifice. He sets up his trick mechanism for the one of him to not be able to escape death, but he does so while having both paths ahead of him, and he subconsciously identifies with the other of him that will survive. Once discovering himself in a water tank, he struggles to break out as much as anyone would in his place. Patiently waiting for Borden (or Fallon) to come and shoot him for the sake of the trick is different and not like him.
Plus Angier gives a speech about the sacrifice he has made but in reality THAT Angier has made no sacrifice yet. He has no memories of drowning because he hadn't experience that (he only has memories of standing there then zapping into a new place).Well, he has memories of standing there and expecting to die in a water tank, not just zap into a new place. Before he splits himself, *both* ways ahead are his to experience.
When Angier hears the noise, he calls "Cutter?". He wasn't expecting anybody else, especially at the moment he hides his crime's evidence.
In fact, Angier is *not* really willing to die for his sacrifice. He sets up his trick mechanism for the one of him to not be able to escape death, but he does so while having both paths ahead of him, and he subconsciously identifies with the other of him that will survive. Once discovering himself in a water tank, he struggles to break out as much as anyone would in his place. Patiently waiting for Borden (or Fallon) to come and shoot him for the sake of the trick is different and not like him.
Plus, he couldn't know ahead that Fallon coming for him would reveal the secret of the trick prior to shooting or that the appearance of second Borden by itself would be such revelation (why, if he knew it would, he would *already* know the secret and he wouldn't need to die for it). You confuse the cause and the consequence here.
Well, he has memories of standing there and expecting to die in a water tank, not just zap into a new place. Before he splits himself, *both* ways ahead are his to experience.
He doesn't know who is coming but knows it could be the second man.Incorrect. It's not impossible that he *could* suspect that the other man would be going after him, but there's nothing in the movie suggesting that he actually *did*.
Both paths are not ahead of HIM because he is currently alive and therefore has never experienced drowning.Angier stands on the stage, preparing to enter the machine. In a few minutes, an electric storm will send him to the other side of a large theater, allowing to amaze hundreds of viewers who will applaud him til their hands fall off. This is true. In a few minutes, a trapdoor will open, dropping him to the watertank where he will die, and his death will be not ever noticed by anyone at all. And this *also* is true. After the split is done, you can say that the Angier on the balcony never experienced drowning. But until then, the Angier that is entering the machine *will* drown, and that's not even 50/50 chance, it's inevitability. He may try to seek diversion, concentrating on his other self's prospects, but he can't completely discard it, and neither afterwards the one surviving can not discard the fact that he, himself, *was* the one that was going to die. That is how duplication works.
He conceded that he knew there was a second person. That Cutter was right.He conceded that he was *told* there was a second person, but he never *believed* that there was one or that Fallon was anything more than a silent assistant. So he has no reason to expect anyone to come for his blood. But even supposing that he did, he couldn't know when and how that happens. He isn't shown doing anything at all that would ensure that Fallon will appear exactly where it will be convenient for Angier to die in exchange for the secret.
He knew that Bordon's death would force a showdownReally? And why is that, pray tell?
Incorrect. It's not impossible that he *could* suspect that the other man would be going after him, but there's nothing in the movie suggesting that he actually *did*.
But until then, the Angier that is entering the machine *will* drown
He conceded that he was *told* there was a second person, but he never *believed* that there was one or that Fallon was anything more than a silent assistant. So he has no reason to expect anyone to come for his blood. But even supposing that he did, he couldn't know when and how that happens. He isn't shown doing anything at all that would ensure that Fallon will appear exactly where it will be convenient for Angier to die in exchange for the secret.
Really? And why is that, pray tell?
Basic common sense might suggest it.Basic common sense != actual event. If it's not shown there, it's not there. The director may misdirect viewers for a while to create a riddle, but the truth must be shown explicitly sooner or later, that's the law of filmmaking.
But once he's on the balcony, he is the one who never got to experience drowining and now that the show is over (once Bordon has been framed) he will never have to experience it.If you forgot, this branch of the discussion grew from the assumption that "THAT Angier has made no sacrifice yet" because "he has no memories of drowning". And this is wrong, because "that Angier" is still the Angier that entered the machine 100 times expecting to die. It's not like he had a 50/50 chance to draw a short straw but didn't, he had 100% probability to survive *and* 100% probability to die. In his case, the former does not negate the latter.
Maybe he and the other Angier (in the shadows) tossed a coin for the job.And that's another reason why the whole hypothesis crumbles. He *wasn't* the sort of a person that could cooperate with himself. If he were, he wouldn't have to kill his own self every night. He'd simply duplicate himself once and then take turns performing the trick. But no, that's what Bordens were able to settle with, not him. For him, co-existing of two of him is an existential horror he's not prepared to face, so he shoots himself during the test run, and designs the trick the way that the unlucky half of him wouldn't be able to exercise second thoughts about dying no matter how hard he struggled. And *that* sort of person you claim were able to simply toss a coin to decide which one will take the danger for another's sake? Preposterous.
As far as expecting him is concerned, there was no more or less reason for Angier to expect him than there was for him to expect Bordon to be backstage when he was. The plan might not work exactly as he wants but the same could be applied to the plan to frame Bordon.You're right here about one thing: *both* "plans" are equally absurd, both present an idiot's mousetrap that is based on assumption that the mouse, seeing a mechanism without any springs, would be so kind to close door after himself and lock it, doing all work on catcher's behalf. That's why I say that there never *was* a plan to frame Borden until the moment that Angier realized that Borden discovered his own other self under the stage, and that the disaster that could ruin his trick could actually be turned into an opportunity to get rid of Borden once and for all.
Again, common sense. He knows there is a double.Are you watching closely? He *doesn't* know there is a double. He is *told* that there is a double, but he rejects the suggestion until he sees another Borden. "Cutter knew. Cutter knew. But I told him it was too simple, too easy."
He knows their relationship goes deeper than just being a lookalike.And since he doesn't perceive Fallon as a lookalike, he has no reason to suspect their relationship goes deeper than just being an assistant.
At the very least, he knows that there is a very real possibility that someone will be coming.And since your chain of assumptions is shown to be based on false premises, the whole construction just got Jenga-ed.
you're correct it's the whole reason why Jackman couldn't work with the double.. he wanted to be the one who got praised not the man under the stage..
no coin flip, no chance!
Excellent, Painbow! I like your analogy, and I will go with it because yours make me feel happier and relieved. :)
shareWell, it had to diverge from the book at some point.
a little more book-like would have stretched the film out too far time-wise.
Nolan elevated the book version greatly with classic film story-telling.
Best unknown feature at IMDB.com
http://www.imdb.com/features/video/browse/
the-author; You say "Nolan elevated the book version greatly with classic film story-telling." I agree with you 100%! After seeing this movie when it was released, I decided to read the book. Normally, the book is much better than the movie; but in this case the book, in my opinion, was horrible and this movie is one of the all time great magic movies. After seeing this movie in the theaters, my wife said something to me she's never said about any movie; "I want to see this movie again, like right now"!
shareI agree with the OP. I was with Angier all the way. Come on, he lost his WIFE due to Borden/Fallow's trick. We can't blame him for really obsessing over getting back at Borden for that. Also, Borden even got Olivia and Cutter to be on his side in the end. Not fair.
It's also overlooked that Borden seemed to break a code of magicians (or any other performer) when they were ruining each other's tricks, which is, "don't harm a member of the audience." Note:
(1) When Angier ruined Borden's trick, Borden lost two fingers. Not good, but those were HIS fingers, and HE was one of the participants in this "duel."
(2) But when Borden ruined Angier's trick, a member of the AUDIENCE got maimed. That not only destroys Angier's reputation, but it harms an INNOCENT bystander who had no knowledge or willing participation in this game of oneupmanship between the two. (What if it had been you?)
As for killing the clones, what was Angier supposed to do, let the world know that there were lots of him around? Have them serve the evil Galactic Empire..."Execute Order 66"? Maybe even Tesla didn't want that secret to be revealed. And we don't know if the duplicates were completely sane or healthy sentient beings. Now we all probably wouldn't kill any clones of ourselves but we're not in Angier's state of mind, we don't know the torment he was feeling after losing his wife. Borden on the other hand just wanted to stay mean. He even played this trick on his very own wife and drove her to death by suicide. And we're supposed to side with him?
The movie seems to make it that we're supposed to be cheering for Borden/Fallon all the way. I wasn't. I like Batman and DC Comics, but for this movie, I was Team Wolverine and Marvel Comics.
I agree with you (and the OP) on some accounts. The killing of the clones was rather extreme and I can't think of a way to justify that. Almost seems like part of the reason it was there at all was so that we wouldn't feel awfully bad for Angier when he is killed at the end.
Borden's whole standpoint on Angier's wife's death was really... as someone in the film put it – cold. There weren't any significant indications of remorse. Instead of being content with losing two fingers – and taking that as his penance – he opted to go to Angier's performance (who seemingly had just gotten back on his feet) and get "even".
Borden's approach to his personal life didn't exactly paint him as a good man either. Far from it, in fact.
In conclusion, both men were flawed (one's flaws having dramatically intensified near the end), but I found myself rooting for Angier throughout. Well at least all the way until the cloning thing started. I was thrown off by that.
The killing of the clones was rather extreme and I can't think of a way to justify that. Almost seems like part of the reason it was there at all was so that we wouldn't feel awfully bad for Angier when he is killed at the end.
I think I can justify the part of killing the clones. What we all thought that during the first use of the machine by Angier when he was alone, we see him killing the clone. What I believe was it was the clone that killed him. The one who wasn't properly cloned. The one with no remorse for killing his duplicate. The one who didn't care about letting an someone die for his fake death. All the negative qualities that had remained in the Great Danton perfectly copied to this monster. And that he died in the end kinda gives me relief. Also as the camera pans out to one of the Angiers in the tank, I think the movie is trying to tell us the real Angier already died long ago.
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You've gotta be kidding me. Angier was a loathsome creep who cheated and copied AND tried to murder Borden (who was fortunate to only lose two fingers in the murder attempt). On top of that he let an innocent man hang. I was so happy he got his deserved comeuppance in the end. Only a complete *beep* could side with him or find him 'likeable'.
shareNot disappointed but I was rooting for him until he was shown killing his clones.Also I hate bordon because he humiliated angier in his own show.Many people seems to forget it.
shareHe might not be dead. W ith that clonibg machine he couild keep a bckup copy around - just n case :)
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