Was anyone else disappointed in Lord Angier's death?
I found him a much more likeable character than that other bloke. Sure, he framed the twin for murder and killed off alot of clones, but he was a great showman!
shareDo we know for certain that he's dead? Surely Angier must have anticipated that Bordon had one more trick up his sleeve (whether it be Fallon or whoever Angier thought was working with Bordon as the second man). He must surely have considered the possibility that Bordon's "friend" would come looking for him.
What if Angier sacrificed his life at the end to finally find out the secret. He knew that only after Bordon's death could he find out once and for all.
Plus Angier gives a speech about the sacrifice he has made but in reality THAT Angier has made no sacrifice yet. He has no memories of drowning because he hadn't experience that (he only has memories of standing there then zapping into a new place).
Maybe Angier had the last laugh. The Angier we see at the end being his last copy; a copy willing (like the others were) to die for that obsession.
I like to think the true Angier was in the shadows listening. And he finally discovered Bordon's secret.
Nice.
shareSurely Angier must have anticipated that Bordon had one more trick up his sleeve
When Angier hears the noise, he calls "Cutter?". He wasn't expecting anybody else, especially at the moment he hides his crime's evidence.
What if Angier sacrificed his life at the end to finally find out the secret.In fact, Angier is *not* really willing to die for his sacrifice. He sets up his trick mechanism for the one of him to not be able to escape death, but he does so while having both paths ahead of him, and he subconsciously identifies with the other of him that will survive. Once discovering himself in a water tank, he struggles to break out as much as anyone would in his place. Patiently waiting for Borden (or Fallon) to come and shoot him for the sake of the trick is different and not like him.
Plus, he couldn't know ahead that Fallon coming for him would reveal the secret of the trick prior to shooting or that the appearance of second Borden by itself would be such revelation (why, if he knew it would, he would *already* know the secret and he wouldn't need to die for it). You confuse the cause and the consequence here.
Plus Angier gives a speech about the sacrifice he has made but in reality THAT Angier has made no sacrifice yet. He has no memories of drowning because he hadn't experience that (he only has memories of standing there then zapping into a new place).Well, he has memories of standing there and expecting to die in a water tank, not just zap into a new place. Before he splits himself, *both* ways ahead are his to experience.
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Oh my god! They killed Angier!
YOU BASTARDS!!! share
When Angier hears the noise, he calls "Cutter?". He wasn't expecting anybody else, especially at the moment he hides his crime's evidence.
He doesn't know who is coming but knows it could be the second man. Calling out Cutter is just common sense (cos it might actually be Cutter).
In fact, Angier is *not* really willing to die for his sacrifice. He sets up his trick mechanism for the one of him to not be able to escape death, but he does so while having both paths ahead of him, and he subconsciously identifies with the other of him that will survive. Once discovering himself in a water tank, he struggles to break out as much as anyone would in his place. Patiently waiting for Borden (or Fallon) to come and shoot him for the sake of the trick is different and not like him.
Angier is entirely willing to die. 100 times in fact.
Both paths are not ahead of HIM because he is currently alive and therefore has never experienced drowning. He has only experienced standing over the tank then being up on the balcony. We know this because he is alive in much the same way that any potential Angier standing in the shadows has no experience of being shot. The Angier's that end up in the tank never knew that they would be the unlucky ones that ended up drowning. They would all make the assumption that they would be the one that ends up in the balcony hence the terror once they find themselves drowning.
The shot Angier equally has no reason to believe that he will be shot (but for different reasons) but even if he does, I see no reason why he wouldn't be willing to sacrifice himself.
Plus, he couldn't know ahead that Fallon coming for him would reveal the secret of the trick prior to shooting or that the appearance of second Borden by itself would be such revelation (why, if he knew it would, he would *already* know the secret and he wouldn't need to die for it). You confuse the cause and the consequence here.
He conceded that he knew there was a second person. That Cutter was right. So he clearly expects someone and his obsession compels him to know who (by this point, the who is the secret.). He would be willing to gamble his life (especially if there is a second Angier) and take the risk. He knew that Bordon's death would force a showdown, that the second man would seek him out, that their relationship went deeper than just a drunken lookalike.
Well, he has memories of standing there and expecting to die in a water tank, not just zap into a new place. Before he splits himself, *both* ways ahead are his to experience.
Basic human psychology. He will always identify with being the lucky one (otherwise he would never have been willing to do it all). share
He doesn't know who is coming but knows it could be the second man.Incorrect. It's not impossible that he *could* suspect that the other man would be going after him, but there's nothing in the movie suggesting that he actually *did*.
Both paths are not ahead of HIM because he is currently alive and therefore has never experienced drowning.Angier stands on the stage, preparing to enter the machine. In a few minutes, an electric storm will send him to the other side of a large theater, allowing to amaze hundreds of viewers who will applaud him til their hands fall off. This is true. In a few minutes, a trapdoor will open, dropping him to the watertank where he will die, and his death will be not ever noticed by anyone at all. And this *also* is true. After the split is done, you can say that the Angier on the balcony never experienced drowning. But until then, the Angier that is entering the machine *will* drown, and that's not even 50/50 chance, it's inevitability. He may try to seek diversion, concentrating on his other self's prospects, but he can't completely discard it, and neither afterwards the one surviving can not discard the fact that he, himself, *was* the one that was going to die. That is how duplication works.
He conceded that he knew there was a second person. That Cutter was right.He conceded that he was *told* there was a second person, but he never *believed* that there was one or that Fallon was anything more than a silent assistant. So he has no reason to expect anyone to come for his blood. But even supposing that he did, he couldn't know when and how that happens. He isn't shown doing anything at all that would ensure that Fallon will appear exactly where it will be convenient for Angier to die in exchange for the secret.
Just imagine it: instead of going down the cellar, Fallon waits at the entrance, expecting Angier to appear where he'll put a bullet into the back of his head. At the same time, second Angier is hiding in his watertank, trying to hold his breath for fifteen minutes in a row and cursing himself for not warning Fallon that he's actually supposed to come down in order to be properly duped. What did Angier *do* to make it not happen?
He knew that Bordon's death would force a showdownReally? And why is that, pray tell?
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Oh my god! They killed Angier!
YOU BASTARDS!!! share
Incorrect. It's not impossible that he *could* suspect that the other man would be going after him, but there's nothing in the movie suggesting that he actually *did*.
Basic common sense might suggest it.
But until then, the Angier that is entering the machine *will* drown
He will hope for the best and expect the worst. But once he's on the balcony, he is the one who never got to experience drowining and now that the show is over (once Bordon has been framed) he will never have to experience it. The fact that he stood on the thing however, shows that he was willing to take the risk. With that in mind, he may also be willing to risk a confrontation with Bordon's double. He's not an idiot. He knows it's a possibility that he might be in danger but I see no reason for him not to take that risk. Maybe he and the other Angier (in the shadows) tossed a coin for the job.
He conceded that he was *told* there was a second person, but he never *believed* that there was one or that Fallon was anything more than a silent assistant. So he has no reason to expect anyone to come for his blood. But even supposing that he did, he couldn't know when and how that happens. He isn't shown doing anything at all that would ensure that Fallon will appear exactly where it will be convenient for Angier to die in exchange for the secret.
Again, he's not an idiot. The possibility is there and one would suspect that Bordon's death is the most likely thing to bring him out. It doesn't require much to assume that the whole plot to frame Bordon was actually about forcing the double out. That was the thing Angier wanted even more than revenge on Bordon. His secret. As far as expecting him is concerned, there was no more or less reason for Angier to expect him than there was for him to expect Bordon to be backstage when he was. The plan might not work exactly as he wants but the same could be applied to the plan to frame Bordon.
Really? And why is that, pray tell?
Again, common sense. He knows there is a double. He knows their relationship goes deeper than just being a lookalike. He knows Bordon can have visitors and the double will know that he (Angier) is alive. He knows that Bordon's death is the most likely thing to bring him out. He knows Fallon is still out there (though he may not know he's the double). At the very least, he knows that there is a very real possibility that someone will be coming. share
Basic common sense might suggest it.Basic common sense != actual event. If it's not shown there, it's not there. The director may misdirect viewers for a while to create a riddle, but the truth must be shown explicitly sooner or later, that's the law of filmmaking.
But once he's on the balcony, he is the one who never got to experience drowining and now that the show is over (once Bordon has been framed) he will never have to experience it.If you forgot, this branch of the discussion grew from the assumption that "THAT Angier has made no sacrifice yet" because "he has no memories of drowning". And this is wrong, because "that Angier" is still the Angier that entered the machine 100 times expecting to die. It's not like he had a 50/50 chance to draw a short straw but didn't, he had 100% probability to survive *and* 100% probability to die. In his case, the former does not negate the latter.
Maybe he and the other Angier (in the shadows) tossed a coin for the job.And that's another reason why the whole hypothesis crumbles. He *wasn't* the sort of a person that could cooperate with himself. If he were, he wouldn't have to kill his own self every night. He'd simply duplicate himself once and then take turns performing the trick. But no, that's what Bordens were able to settle with, not him. For him, co-existing of two of him is an existential horror he's not prepared to face, so he shoots himself during the test run, and designs the trick the way that the unlucky half of him wouldn't be able to exercise second thoughts about dying no matter how hard he struggled. And *that* sort of person you claim were able to simply toss a coin to decide which one will take the danger for another's sake? Preposterous.
As far as expecting him is concerned, there was no more or less reason for Angier to expect him than there was for him to expect Bordon to be backstage when he was. The plan might not work exactly as he wants but the same could be applied to the plan to frame Bordon.You're right here about one thing: *both* "plans" are equally absurd, both present an idiot's mousetrap that is based on assumption that the mouse, seeing a mechanism without any springs, would be so kind to close door after himself and lock it, doing all work on catcher's behalf. That's why I say that there never *was* a plan to frame Borden until the moment that Angier realized that Borden discovered his own other self under the stage, and that the disaster that could ruin his trick could actually be turned into an opportunity to get rid of Borden once and for all.
Again, common sense. He knows there is a double.Are you watching closely? He *doesn't* know there is a double. He is *told* that there is a double, but he rejects the suggestion until he sees another Borden. "Cutter knew. Cutter knew. But I told him it was too simple, too easy."
He knows their relationship goes deeper than just being a lookalike.And since he doesn't perceive Fallon as a lookalike, he has no reason to suspect their relationship goes deeper than just being an assistant.
At the very least, he knows that there is a very real possibility that someone will be coming.And since your chain of assumptions is shown to be based on false premises, the whole construction just got Jenga-ed.
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Oh my god! They killed Angier!
YOU BASTARDS!!! share
you're correct it's the whole reason why Jackman couldn't work with the double.. he wanted to be the one who got praised not the man under the stage..
no coin flip, no chance!
Excellent, Painbow! I like your analogy, and I will go with it because yours make me feel happier and relieved. :)
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