MovieChat Forums > The Princess and the Frog (2009) Discussion > Why PAF + Tiana never achieved full popu...

Why PAF + Tiana never achieved full popularity.


It's no secret that in the Disney Princess world, Tiana is pretty low on the totem pole. While it's easy to chalk that up to the obvious, I feel as though it goes deeper.

As the father of a three year old, we try not to let her watch too much TV, but when she does, it's all about the Disney Princesses for her, and as a result, I've become very familiar with each of them, and there's one thing I can't help but notice about the ones that, let's just say aren't at the cool kids table; other than the fact that they're not of the Caucasian persuasion.

First of all, there's Mulan and Pocahantas. Referring to them as Princesses is grasping at straws, so I'll move on to Tiana and Jasmine. Whereas Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Little Mermaid, Beauty and The Beast, and Tangled are set in very whimsical fairy tale settings, Princess and the Frog is not. It's set in a very realistic setting, though magic is obviously involved. What it boils down to is that like Aladdin, this isn't so much a princess movie as it is a movie with a Princess. The difference is that until recently, Aladin wasn't marketed as a princess movie, where PAF was.

The other thing is that she's a Frog for most of it. When little girls watch a princess movie, they want to see a princess, not a frog.

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The other thing is that she's a Frog for most of it. When little girls watch a princess movie, they want to see a princess, not a frog.


This was what I always thought. I thought it was rather disappointing that she had to be a frog for the majority of the movie. I mean, the princess doesn't even turn into a frog in the original story... was it really necessary to do that?

Thing is, even if they followed the original story, the movie would be pretty short.. which makes me wonder if they really even needed to make a movie based off of "The Frog Prince" in the first place.

It's set in a very realistic setting, though magic is obviously involved.


Then there's the setting, like you said...
It's not a very princessy setting. It takes place in the same universe that WWI and segregation exists.
I feel like maybe they could've gotten around that if they made it an alternate universe, where war and racism isn't a thing. (they actually did that with "Kiki's Delivery Service," which takes place in an alternate universe where WWII didn't happen). But then I'm sure people would get angry with that, because you're erasing the nasty parts of history.

Really.. I think the setting itself can be really fun and lively... I definitely feel some magic when I look at the concept art:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/73934f00b5b0ecd94183f17d681c8bd4/tumblr_mrt8u3GGZN1qdfv3oo6_500.jpg
http://animationarchive.net/Feature%20Films/The%20Princess%20and%20the%20Frog/Concept%20Art/visdev3.jpg
http://www.michaelspornanimation.com/splog/wp-content/X/princess.jpg
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10600000/PATF-Concept-Art-the-princess-and-the-frog-10646875-640-349.jpg
http://animationarchive.net/Feature%20Films/The%20Princess%20and%20the%20Frog/Concept%20Art/visdev7.jpg

But again, it takes place in the same kind of world where World War I, segregation, and poverty exists. So reality drags it down. Otherwise, I think the setting would be just as fun as any other Disney fairytale movie.

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Are you kidding? Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast both took place in France (the latter to a more obvious extent)! You're telling me that France is not a realistic setting?!


BOOMER WILL LIVE!
[Formerly CosmosX9]

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I disagree. I don't think it had a lot to do with setting. The Princess and the Frog has a lot of fairytale influences (the ball at the beginning) and Tiana has loads of pretty dresses. She is always displayed in these when she is marketed. Marketing wise, you'd think she'd be more popular because of that.
Not to mention... Tiana did spend the majority of the movie as a frog, but look at Sleeping Beauty. She was hardly in her own movie, but she is still more popular.

I'm disappointed that Jasmine is not as popular as she used to be. Speaking as someone who was a little girl when Aladdin came out, I feel like Jasmine was extremely popular. Disney marketing MADE it her movie too. I always liked her outfits and the magic carpet ride was magical. Aladdin always felt like a fairytale to me.

So why are Jasmine, Pocahontas, Mulan and Tiana so unpopular as Disney Princesses? My opinion is a controversial one, but I think its plain to see.

It doesn't have to do with the movies themselves. A lot of little girls haven't even seen Snow White, Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella nowadays, but they embrace them through the pictures and the marketing.

It has everything to do with aesthetics and beauty standards. White, thin girls with straight - wavy textured hair and flawless, pale complexions. Of course the pretty fairy tale dresses help, but ultimately, the former helps. The dresses don't save Tiana.

It's not a hateful thing. It's subconscious wiring- mostly from the media. This is how the ideal Western woman looks. And what the majority of Western girls (caucasian) can relate to.

That's why the more ethnic girls fall by the wayside. As do any girls that don't meet that standard such as Merida (tight curly hair and freckles)

I hope it changes. I think it has a bit (which is why we even have characters like Mulan and Tiana in the first place). But I do believe that is really is all in aesthetics.

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I'm disappointed that Jasmine is not as popular as she used to be.


So why are Jasmine, Pocahontas, Mulan and Tiana so unpopular as Disney Princesses? My opinion is a controversial one, but I think its plain to see.


Who says Jasmine and Mulan aren't popular? I always see a lot of people name them as amongst their favorites. Pocahontas and Tiana, not so much, mostly because their movies aren't as popular overall (I personally love both but I digress).

It's not a hateful thing. It's subconscious wiring- mostly from the media. This is how the ideal Western woman looks. And what the majority of Western girls (caucasian) can relate to.

That's why the more ethnic girls fall by the wayside. As do any girls that don't meet that standard such as Merida (tight curly hair and freckles)


I disagree. I think the ties have been turning in this regard for a long while now, and I see ethnic beauty embraced much more, particularly on the internet.

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There's a whole list of reasons it underperformed. Hand drawn was a mistake because today's kids have been brought up on 3d animation.

Soundtracks are everything and jazz doesn't have a wide enough appeal. There's no A whole new world in PATF.

Agreed on the swamp setting frog movie and kids don't dream to work all day. They dream to have fun. Black, white they're all going to pick the girl who can build ice castles over the entrepreneur.

And lastly I don't dismiss the racial/ looks argument and that works in 2 ways. Merida is a redhead with curly hair so she's a tomboy. Tiana is black so she's blue collar and has to work her way up. Kids identified with the personalities as well and if that doesn't speak to them they gravitate to people who do. Then you get into the straight up culture wars. Alot of people didn't take their kids to this movie for less than pure reasons.

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Hand drawn was a mistake because today's kids have been brought up on 3d animation.


I see you're on the animation communist side with Pixar. Rumor has it that this (and to a FAR GREATER extent, Winnie the Sh!t) were created as 2d films by Pixar execs just to lose money ON PURPOSE, so they could "shut us stupid idiots up about our precious 2d art form". At very least, the new "Spongebob Squarepants" movie was MOSTLY 2d incredibly enough, though Uncle Walt's ghost would STILL be dismayed that his OWN STUDIO had been usurped by the de facto pro-bias CGI folks and was trashed of HIS art form...

Agreed on the swamp setting frog movie and kids don't dream to work all day. They dream to have fun. Black, white they're all going to pick the girl who can build ice castles over the entrepreneur.


Boo hoo! The Magnificent B!tch Elsa hogs attention for being a wimpy gay-@ss püssy who's a clucking chicken who builds dumb@ss ice castles and steals money from the mindfücked public, while poor Tiana who's actually a HARD WORKER actually WORKS to achieve her dreams and doesn't just slack off, like Her B!tchiness...

As for the other points you made against this film, I don't really give a sh!t; sorry...

DOWN W/ FROZEN AND THE DUMBASS LITTLE B!TCHES WHO WORSHIP IT! (but HAIL those few folks in general who even remotely appreciate The Princess and the Frog, scapegoat against 2d or otherwise...)

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Hey I prefer hand drawn animation too but kids have been brought up on 3d now. Spongebob is an established tv show he already has millions of kid fans as a hand drawn character. If you're starting from scratch though 3d just has too many advantages.

As to your other point awesome she works hard and was finally rewarded by owning her own lemonade stand in the end and that's the fun half of the movie. The other half is another Disney animal switch and this time they're frogs in a swamp. Great moral, very good characters, it's a good movie too but it's swinging for a base hit. Frozen actually has a magnificent moral about standing beside people who've lost their way the execution wasn't the strongest though. If you prefer PATF that's fine but I'd tone down the salt.

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Bingo we have a winner! Unfortunately I think it’s true what you said. It all comes down to what people consider beautiful. For decades, fair skin and blonde or light brown hair was the media standard. Ethnic skin stones were cast aside, presumably for racial reasons in the earlier 20th century, and later on, just out of the habit. I say this as a person of color. I remember young girl family relatives playing princess and no one wanting to be Jasmine or Pocahontas since they are darker skinned princesses. It’s awful. For all the people that complain about the recent trend of racial representation, it’s obvious they’ve never lived the experiences. I’ve learned to love and appreciate all ethnicities and their beauty. All that can be done now to change the mindset of people to “all ethnicities are beautiful” is to be more representative and part of changing that mindset is showing people that anyone can be beautiful by having ethnic representation. Disney, for years being critiqued for this, is now on the forefront of this change. I applaud them. My hope is that in time, the princesses like Moana, Jasmine, Tiana etc. will achieve more popularity than what has been the trend in years past.

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Tiana was beautiful, at least when she was human!

Personally, I think that there are two factors that are more important than race and/or looks: 1) The movie isn't that great or that fun. 2) Tiana's most notable characteristic is that she's a hard worker who believes in the value of hard work, and whose Happy Ending is going to involve more hard work.

Now that's the sort of message adults approve of, but which is completely antithetical to little girls' Princess fantasies. Their fantasies of a happy ending are all about sitting in a palace while servants bring you chocolates and you issue orders while wearing fabulous gowns and Prince Charming kisses your hand, not haranguing waiters or arguing with sweaty chefs or wondering where the hell your husband is while you're running the club.

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