MovieChat Forums > Game of Thrones (2011) Discussion > The Dothraki aren't all that impressive ...

The Dothraki aren't all that impressive as an army

posted 7 years ago by Darren (1192)
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Since season one, they've been talking up the Dothraki, saying no army could defeat them in the field, and now we have Jaime confirming that "they'll beat any army." For the life of me, I can't see what anyone in the show would be basing this on. It just goes to show how little the show's writers actually know about pre-gunpowder warfare. The only things I see the Dothraki have going for them are numbers, and ferocity. They don't wear armor, so they'd absolutely get slaughtered by armored heavy cavalry in any melee. They don't use lances that I've observed, so their impact in the charge would not be all that great. We've seen a few archers among them, but nothing that would make them look comparable to the Mongols of Genghis Khan, who were primarily horse archers and the greatest light cavalry of their day, who would use their mobility to shoot and move, shoot and move, and avoid contact until their archery had opened up gaps in the enemy's formations they could then exploit.

The Dothraki just charge in, the few archers among them shooting a couple of arrows here and there, and most swinging those curved swords of theirs that appear modeled on the ancient Egyptian Kopis -- a weapon which, as Matt Easton of scholagladiatoria pointed out, is actually not a bad sword for infantry, but it's not at all a good cavalry sword.

In short, I can't see anything about the Dothraki that looks all that impressive from a military point of view. I can say with complete confidence that they would be totally unable to break pike formations like the Scots used against the English at Bannockburn, or which Swiss mercenaries and German Landsknechts used on the continent in the late middle ages/early Renaissance. I see nothing about their tactics, weapons, or equipment that would enable them to do it.

I know it would have added a bit to the expense of the show, but the creators should have given them a little armor, made most of them archers, and show them using tactics more like the Mongols.

[–] xfool (931) 7 years ago

I believe they arent intended to portray as a proper military army, they just have great horsemanship and skirmishing abilities. They are so called the 'greatest army' mostly due to their numbers, they would not win against a well trained and well armored army if they are of equal numbers.

[–] Darren (1192) 7 years ago

They shouldn't even be able to win with superior numbers. Their weapons aren't good enough, and the lack of armor would leave them way too vulnerable. I don't recall even seeing shields among the Dothraki. It is literally no exaggeration to say that a Westerosi knight in full armor could slaughter ten or more of them on the field, take a break, then go back for more, as long as he could get within reach. It reminds me of what I read about Spanish conquistadors in the new world, when they fought Aztec and Inca warriors. There were any number of engagements when the Spanish (and their native allies) fought battles, and individual Spanish conquistadors, wearing steel armor, and wielding steel swords, would charge into formations of enemy warriors, and just kill and kill and kill until they were exhausted. Their steel swords would pierce the quilted cotton armor the Aztec or Inca warriors wore, but the native weapons, obsidian-tipped spears, or obsidian-edged mācuahuitl were unable to penetrate the steel armor worn by the Spaniards. Consequently, each Spaniard was able to kill many, many opponents, while staying safe under the protection of his armor (as long as he could avoid getting surrounded and pulled down by sheer numbers).

Any clash between Westerosi and Dothraki would actually go something like that. Westerosi knights have equipment that is so much better, they should have a kill ratio of ten to one or better. And as I said, the Dothraki would be utterly unable to break well trained, pike-wielding infantry. They simply don't have the weapons they'd need to do it.

[–] winslow (1318) 7 years ago

well they had a dragon

[–] GunWillTravel (198) 7 years ago

1. The Dothraki horse advantage in open terrain is significantly bigger than historical ill-fated European cavalry charges against pike formations in favorable terrain, where they were defeated despite numerical advantages. Heavy armor resists slashing weapons like the Dothraki swords very well, but the sheer numbers (maybe 40K horses!) would be an overwhelming advantage, especially if the terrain allowed horses to outflank the pike lines. The best armor in the world isn't going to save the lines from a swarm of 1000+ pound horses charging. And as you note, armor won't protect anyone who is surrounded and knocked down, which happens a lot under a stampede of horses.

2. Dothraki soldiers are the cavalry and bulk of the force, but Dany's front lines are actually supposed to be the Unsullied, who also use spear & shield tactics.

[–] croft_alice (12180) 7 years ago

Like i said,bad strategy...any army that faces an enemy like dothraki can hold them off.

[–] Darren (1192) 7 years ago

Sorry, you're 100% off base.

Pike formations as used in late medieval/early Renaissance Europe were squares. They presented a hedge of pikes on all four sides; there's no flank to get around. And they were completely invulnerable to cavalry. The pikes outreached cavalry lances, and the horsemen simply could not get close enough. Dothraki have even shorter weapons, and also lack the armor that protected European heavy cavalry. It doesn't matter how significant your numerical advantage is when you can't bring any force to bear on the enemy.

In Europe the answer was swordsmen. Archers weren't really enough by themselves; the pikemen were heavily enough armored themselves to stand up to missile fire quite well. What brought about the end of the Swiss and German pike formations was Spanish infantry using sword and shield. It was actually a replay of the way the Roman legions, using swords and shields, had defeated Greek hoplite armies armed with pikes at Cynoscephalae in 364BC. Pikes have long reach, but they're unwieldly and no good at bad breath range, so if a more maneuverable enemy can get past the pike points and into your formations, they can chop you to pieces. Sword and shield infantry can do that, but cavalry cannot. It's actually a paper/rock/scissors situation. Swordsmen can get into pike formations and use their greater maneuverability and handier weapons to gut those, pike formations; but their weapons don't have the reach to hold off cavalry. Heavy cavalry can ride down and crush non-pikemen infantry with their long-reaching lances and devastating impact in the charge; but they can't get close enough to break pike formations. Pike formations can hold off any cavalry charge by presenting a wall of pike heads that cavalry simply can't break through; but they can't stand up against swordsmen who can get into the formation.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (73645) 7 years ago

Great post and i agree
But i am willing to suspend some amount of disbelief for an overall great story
I also recall that King Robert feared the 'Dothraki Screamers' as he called them...i suppose we can assume that their numbers/fearless macho-guy culture make them hell for a standard army..?

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Agree about suspension of disbelief. And add that if they scare the shit out of Bronn, then I'm willing to believe that they're SCARY, even without the dragon.

I'm no tactics-and-weaponry geek, so I'm willing to accept everyone's assertion that the men of Westeros have superior technology and more effective tactics and would win under normal circumstances. But things are not normal. War has been raging through Westeros for several years now, and tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of fighting men have been killed in the War of Five Kings and Two Queens. I'm not a warfare geek but I do know a fair amount about medicine and Medieval society, and FYI years of raging warfare means that the armies of Westeros are filled with men too young, too old, too untrained or incompetent to be there, most of whom have untreated injuries that are probably infected, chronic diseases like dysentery or tuberculosis, feet that are raw from boots that never fit and are falling apart after years in the field, undernutrition, and low morale. Cersei can't have been paying them regularly or supplying them properly (remember the six men sharing a rabbit for dinner), and they can't have much enthusiasm for a queen who blew up the main church of Westeros and drove her son to suicide.

The Dothraki are fresh and well fed and are spoiling for a fight, and filled with holy fervor because they've got a dragon backing them up, as well as a fireproof dragon queen. Normally the Westerosi would have the edge, but not under these circumstances.

[–] ShogunofYonkers (73645) 7 years ago

I could not have said it any better Otter-
Nice post!

[–] Darren (1192) 7 years ago

Except that doesn't tally with what the characters say. In season one, I think it was Robert Baratheon who said the Dothraki would beat any army in the field, and Jaime said they'd beat any army he'd ever seen -- not just armies that had been worn down by years of war.

And as I said, there's actually nothing about them, as we see them on the screen, that justifies that assessment. The show's technical advisors could have done a much better job here.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

If Robert Baratheon had a fresh, well-supplied army and still didn't like the idea of facing them, perhaps it really was because of their ferocity. The armies of Westeros would mostly be composed of peasants who'd been conscripted by their local landowners and who mostly wanted to survive and go home, while the Dothraki are full-time warriors. If a Dothrakus needs the tack repaired and the mares milked, he doesn't do it himself, he raids a town and captures enough slaves to do it for him or he dies in the attempt! No, a poorly trained peasant who has no idea what the latest war is about approaches a battle in a very different spirit than someone who is really truly after death or glory, and that sort of thing might give the Dothraki enough of an advantage to overcome their inferior technology.

But yeah, I know what you mean about details bothering you and taking you out of the story, they really do interfere with the willing suspension of disbelief. You'd think the writers or prop designers would take the time to do a little googling, but it's the same with medical errors.

[–] Darren (1192) 7 years ago

That's a good point as far as the Dothraki vs. peasant levies. But I don't think we've actually seen any armies in GoT composed of peasant levies. The knights are a warrior aristocracy, and like the historical knights of Europe, have no profession other than that of arms. The Lannister army Danaerys just destroyed was composed of full-time, professional soldiers as well, so these should have been quite skilled well trained.

When the Mongols invaded Europe in the mid-13th century, they beat a number of European armies in Poland, Hungary, Bohemia, Moravia, Austria, and Croatia. The Mongols had better tactics. As I said earlier, they used their mobility to avoid melee combat, and used their archery and superior numbers to their advantage. However, there were a few engagements where European armies were able to win because they fought on terrain that didn't allow the Mongols to avoid close combat, and the heavy-armored knights had the advantage. Also the Knights Templars, and the Knight Hospitalers, who wore heavier armor, fared quite well. At the Battle of Legnica, in Poland, for example, though the Mongols won the battle, the Templars lost only 3 knights and 2 sergeants. During the second Mongol invasion, Europeans had learned, adjusted their tactics, built better fortifications and increased the number of heavy-armed knights. This allowed King Ladislaus IV to inflict a decisive defeat on the Mongols and repel the invasion in 1286. (The first invasion had only ended because the death of the Great Khan Ögedei in 1241, caused the Mongols to turn back and fight over the succession.)

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Actually I suspect the foot soldiers in the Lannister army were made up of peasant conscripts, but they were given nice-looking armor and red cloaks, so that they didn't look like peasants.

But that's a guess based on 15th century England, because neither the books nor the TV show have said exactly where most of the soldiers in these armies come from. But if the Lannisters are putting the likes of Ed Sheeran in the field and he and his pals were lucky to share a rabbit for dinner, we know that if the Lannisters once had strong, professional, well-supplied soldiers working for them, those days are gone.

[–] croft_alice (12180) 7 years ago

It doesn't matter if they were peasants or not,they're defense strategy was good.

[–] pankoeken (469) 7 years ago

Maybe there's no amazingly dull oddballs prattling on and on and on about pre gunpowder warfare in westeros so no one knows the Dothraki can't win.

[–] Darren (1192) 7 years ago

And maybe there are people with the wit to realize that screwing up technical details can take people out of a story. And with just a tiny bit of extra effort, things like that can be fixed, so why not get it right?

[–] hellcat1983 (135) 7 years ago

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[–] Darren (1192) 7 years ago

No.

[–] hellcat1983 (135) 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Darren (1192) 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] hellcat1983 (135) 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Ldlamb (601) 7 years ago

Pretty much just you and a handful of others Darren, that is taken out of the story though.

[–] hellcat1983 (135) 7 years ago

Exactly, Darren must have a great life if he's nit picking about stupid stuff like this.

[–] TexasJack (12515) 7 years ago

If it weren't for nit picking about stupid stuff like this, there would be no Movie Chat. Heck, there wouldn't have been imdb forums in the first place.

[–] croft_alice (12180) 7 years ago

They relly only on brute force...I did not see any strategy beside this.

[–] Nirzhormahmud (137) 7 years ago

Good thoughts and i agree. Previously i posted a topic "Dothraki horde vs Westeros Mountain Knights", Where i say the same things. As Knights amry i indecate like Vale knight forces who are fully mounted/armored/shielded. Dothraki has no chance against that kind of force, and mybe 40000-45000 vale knights are well enough for bashing them.

[–] Volley (3386) 7 years ago

King Robert was scared to death of the Dothraki horde--who had an agility more like Oberyn, leather and light, than the Mountain, heavy and armored. He goes on about it in season 1 a few times if memory serves. That's the way I see it anyways.

We saw firsthand what the Dothraki were capable of, with Drogon paving the way into the Lannister front lines.

[–] TexasJack (12515) 7 years ago

In the books, Jorah gave Dany his assessment of Dothraki vs Westerosi knights:

"When I first went into exile, I looked at the Dothraki and saw half-naked barbarians, as wild as their horses. If you had asked me then, Princess, I should have told you that a thousand good knights would have no trouble putting to flight a hundred times as many Dothraki."

"But if I asked you now?"

"Now," the knight said, "I am less certain. They are better riders than any knight, utterly fearless, and their bows outrange ours. In the Seven Kingdoms, most archers fight on foot, from behind a shieldwall or a barricade of sharpened stakes. The Dothraki fire from horseback, charging or retreating, it makes no matter, they are full as deadly … and there are so many of them, my lady. Your lord husband alone counts forty thousand mounted warriors in his khalasar."

"Is that truly so many?"

"Your brother Rhaegar brought as many men to the Trident," Ser Jorah admitted, "but of that number, no more than a tenth were knights. The rest were archers, freeriders, and foot soldiers armed with spears and pikes. When Rhaegar fell, many threw down their weapons and fled the field. How long do you imagine such a rabble would stand against the charge of forty thousand screamers howling for blood? How well would boiled leather jerkins and mailed shirts protect them when the arrows fall like rain?"

"Not long," she said, "not well."

He nodded. "Mind you, Princess, if the lords of the Seven Kingdoms have the wit the gods gave a goose, it will never come to that. The riders have no taste for siegecraft. I doubt they could take even the weakest castle in the Seven Kingdoms, but if Robert Baratheon were fool enough to give them battle …"