Good lor, this post is not even mine and i am getting all sorts of responses. Trompos, you should be grateful to me.
COMPANY...forward:
The first time i stumbled into DM was the Spanish Prisoner or Glengarry. Around the crops of every imaginable Hollywood craps and other artsy fares, SP and Glen were a breath of fresh air for me. Granted the dialogue took a couple more movies to get used to, also granted is the wooded acting...and that as well, became an acquire taste...just as any Bresson or Stav gems (Solaris guy - Russian directors must have easier names to remember). If you are a Scorsese fan, you may not like the DM flavor since it is choppy, snappy, grimey, and often unrealistic but that is the magic of it, being able to transform a real life universe into a DM's world that is often theatrical than camera life. Unless you are willing to allow yourself to flow with it, you would not like it..I suppose this is true for any artists, be it painting or light painting. I have friends who adamantly HATE scifi and superheroes. "spacecrap" as she would say.
ALso, I am taking consideration that DM stuff are becoming more contemporary, larger scale topics thrillers than your pulpy quality, seedy behind the alley transactions in his past which what i had fallen for. There are more hollywood and govt agents in his later works than the con men that you are so willing to bed with. ANd yes, they have becoming less believable...but still, in its own right, makes complete sense.
THe minute I saw the Terry actor comes on, I am going, dude, he is as Bruce Lee as that Lee actor who played Bruce in the Dragon (i am not good with names, sorry). Even the fight choreaographers have expressed that a fight movie will have to have the Hollywood brush to make it look good. Bruce was all legs work and we can go into length about how each of us view of Bruce Lee but the actor was alll waaayyy too buff and wayy tooo much upper strength. The same with Terry here too butyou know what, I let that pass and even let the plausibility of the cop accepting the honor of the school/dojo/academy enough to kill himself. And this is all wrap back up to Terry's flaw way of thinking: not to compete and to honor the purity of the art. A sentiment also shared by Bruce Lee...the not competing part i mean.
SO yes, YOU might just tell the truth to save your skin BUT you are suppose to honor your teacher...no matter what is how Jo thought. We allow so much unbelievable love of sifu for Kill Bill but yet we just couldnt let this go. While the suicide was extreme, it serves its purpose to put guilt and true life onto Terry's way of thinking. WHile seemingly excessive, it is also plausible since already he is having an on the way out marriage, debts, anger issue and unemployment and this school is his ONLY salvation.
THis is also part of DM's magic/failure, depending on who you are: deadpan, not overemphasizing or repeating of a scene/character as would hollywood with a reminder cut. WHile it helps with the movie, it also makes it more digestible...if that what you want, see my original suggestion of film choices. With DM, it is always uncertain, never black and white, jarring and yes, annoying to the point of enjoyability. There is always an uneasy element or question: did the agent acted out on his own with out his boss, the actor? It is never an easy roller coaster ride with DM.
Trompos, it is all you now so enjoy the attention:
<So let's get this straight. Guy has a BJJ school (as a guy who does BJJ that was NOT a BJJ school, they should have researched better)in it is a cop who wants his black belt>
The bottom line is it is a martial arts school, moving right along.
<One day an emotionally disturbed rape victim (who overacted and made herself look stupid) comes in to tell the instructor that she his his car. The cop touches her she freaks fires his gun that he left out in the open. A window shatters the woman is given a pass as to not "bring dishonor to the academy (BS no BJJ school talks about honor of the academy, we're more down to earth than that, geez we're not a karate school for pete's sake)>
In real life probably not cuz dude, i aint paying for the glass, you pay for it but you must see how Terry is: a calm and supporting selfless person with this philosophy of perfection that instills into this cop who did it out of good AND to save his ars for leaving the gun unattended and nearly got killed...with his marriage and anger issue, money issue and loss of job (bar) on the line, this wouldnt have gone well...again, the school is his salvation for honor. And yes, good things did come out of this to the involving parties: Jo kept his honor for the school, Terry same and being repaid by humble lawyer. It is a message of decency and honors between adults...unconditionally.
<Instructor goes to a bar to talk to cop quit bouncer job in bar is deadbeat action star (Tim Allen? Really?)fight breaks instructor saves actor's life>
Doing well so far...actually he went there to check on Jo the cop's recent unemployment NOT to ask Jo to quit.
<For this actor send instructor a gold watch, also invites instructor to his home and eventually asks him to be a producer in his movie. Instructor gives cop watch and black belt. Cop pawns watch and it's stolen is on suspension.
Instructor finds out tells actor's agent? Don't know who Joe M was exactly. Agent leaves. We see nothing of them lawyer rape victim pays for window wife of instructor happy as money is tight and bills couldn't be paid if window was fixed>
Doing well so far, keep it up. But have you been focusing on the side actors in a scene, the development of characters through dialogue (again, the unusual type of verbiage and odd to snappy satisfying delivery).
<Instructor gives agent guy an idea about 2 white pebbles and on black, wife had a clothing deal going with actor's wife it's screwed she's angry. Instructor finds that his pebble idea was stolen by agent rape victim is lawyer helps him fight that>
very well but a few commas would have helped me from squinting but moving along here...
<They threaten to go to the cops with the shooting incident. Here's where things get STUPID they have the shell casing, how did they get it if the girl gave it to the cop NOT the wife who later is the one who had it. How did they know that the window was shot? They mentioned nothing of a found bullet. With this weak evidence they threaten the cop's career and he offs himself not to dishonor the academy again. If you ever hung out with a Brazilian and the cops that go to BJJ class you would know why this bothers me. These people curse shoot the $hit and are all around regular guys we are NOT samurais. >
JuJitsu is from Japan and not from Brazil. Hence the samurai code and all that. You are right, a Brzilian would NOT have done what Jo did cuz they did not in the same life that Jo had (see above). I wouldnt think Terry would have done the same but he is humble by Jo's action. Terry's school and philosophy is of this pure samurai, Japanese form. Jujitsu does not make you a samurai either. Your buddy wouldnt have gotten it cuz lets face it, Brazil is a great country but when was the last time any of them killed themself for a shame or for an emperor or if you also note that the word hari kiri is NOT Brazilian/Portuguese. And yes, I have hung out with Brazilians and it was not a dude or a beefy fighter but a gorgeous spicy little number..and two...and yes, she shoots and all that and she is NOT a samurai either.
The bullet is a bit thin too with it being so contaminated with finger prints...but let that go and just enjoy the nuggets of DM.
So there you have it. ANd no, i dont think yo are dumb...just not ready for DM yet is all. Red belt is an art film about fighting so ... take it how ever you like.
<And what's with the redbelt at the end? I know they only BASED this on the Gracies but you don't just get a red belt only founders have had them (Helio Carlos, Rorion and a select others) A 1 stripe black belt does not get a redbelt for one good (it was technically off) fight. And why would the Japanese guy give his most prized 1/4 mil belt to a guy who fought well? iF i'M MISSING SOMETHING PLEASE CORRECT ME, i NEED TO MAKE SENSE OF THIS DUMB MOVIE>
The Japanese fighter is from Japan who honors the samurai tradition YET he was willing to pawn it away for his career by to throwing a fight. And then some unknown smaller guy comes in a did the deed, putting a shame on his indecent gambling of his career... that is my simple take on it...what do you think?
<Aren't there easier ways to screw people over? And why did they want to scam a penniless instructor anyway?>
Funny you brought this up cuz i thought of this too. Terry aint no top prize Bruce Lee or S Seagal (not that he is) to involve SOOOo many parties just to scam a poor old recluse sensei. In the end, it probably cost more to flip Terry than just going on with their crooked lives. I guess it is all about evil winning over good, ideally and Chet getting the wife (we dont see this but watch again - booze and broads as Chet say), the fighter getting the actions and the attentions (it is good for the sports), the loan shark getting some points, the promoters selling his shows, the wife getting some money and become rich finally. ANd the end while cheesy, still effective and redeeming as good gleams and shines brightly as a student of Bruce Lee shows how.
It is only a movie and this is all theories if you want to know.
While it is good, it is not a masterpiece..but it is still alot better than alot of stuffs out there. Yes, even better than Transformers II or 3 or whatever...spacecraap as my friend would say.
ta ta.
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menacmx
15 years ago
First of all your grammar is horrific, it really makes your post hard to read. I suggest next time you use a program like Word to fix those problems to make your post more coherent.
Secondly, making a movie that doesn't make sense and then calling it art doesn't make the movie any better. Onto the meat and potatoes.
Mike Terry is nothing like Bruce Lee or any character Bruce Lee has ever played. Bruce Lee was all about fighting and competition and PRACTICALITY so I dunno what you meant by that.
The cop killing himself doesn't make sense within the story because the cop was taking extra jobs to take care of his family. Yet he'll kill himself, leaving his family to fend for themselves, for the honor of another man.
Kill Bill is a fantasy story fantastical things are accepted because of that. This is a drama not a fantasy, get your genres straight. The cop killing himself in this film makes no sense; if I saw Mike Terry shooting fireballs from his hands I would've said it was stupid yet I can accept that when watching X-Men.
I guess I'll go through attempt to insult Trompos' intelligence.
Different Martial Arts have different philosophies, BJJ philosophy doesn't mesh with the philosophy of the Instructor in the movie. That is a big deal. I can accept the whole window scene but that's just a small problem.
BJJ is a form of Judo that comes from Japan. The culture however is uniquely Brazilian Mike Terry learned BJJ in Brazil he speaks Portuguese if you remember from the bar scene. Come on you gotta keep up, lol. Mike Terry comes off as self-righteous and pretentious. He'd allow his wife to ruin her life to keep up with his mythical code of honor. Also no where in the samurai code does it say not to fight it's all pretentious BS. Mamet did not do his research and people are calling him on it. Get over it he's not a God.
I think most people get what is going on but that doesn't make the movie any better. You trying to rag on Transformers is pseudointellectual douchebaggery. Transformers is a better movie than this one. It had a beginning, middle and end. The storyline made sense it had fewer plot holes better acting, cinematography, etc. For some reason you think it makes you smart not to like it.
I'm gonna tell you this for your own good sweetie, movies were never meant to be deep or philosophical. They're meant to entertain. If you want philosophy read Boethius.
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Manuelthousand7
15 years ago
I agree with everything you just posted menacmx. One thing though, while movies may have not been made to be philosophical I think the really good ones are the ones that leave you with something to think about. Perhaps a little social commentary here or there or some life questions to reflect upon.
Also to the other guy I respect your opinion a little more since you finally offered a defense for it but even in your explanation there were a few gaps in logic, mena covered it however so it is unnecessary to mention at this point. Sufficeth to say I still think this was a good movie, just not a work of art. I respect what it did and tried to do though. Remember originally I was only drawn to comment because of annoying fanboism and some of the pretentious comments I thought were trying to be made.
One last thing. I'm sick of people making the assertion that movies can't be good because their actions movies and have explosions and what not. Transformers is a good movie for reasons mena already pointed out and I will agree with the assertion that it is a better movie.
Once again you have to look at the generes to compare.
Transformers is an action movie and a good one that. It definitely delivers to the table what it is promised and little more. It had a little comedy added on the side :) It also had cameos from other well known figures, which ads to the fun of the film and it was thoroughly entertaining. Furthermore, it had a decent plot which most action movies don't have.
For the action film genre Transformers is an exceptional movie.
Redbelt doesn't deliver on the levels of its genre however. It doesn't even deliver everything a standard movie is supposed to deliver. So if we're judging it by that criteria Redbelt fails and the only way of it being ranked higher than a movie that delivers on all marks is for it to be more entertaining. As I was more entertained by transformers I deem it a better movie. But it's not just me, everyone who doesn't criticize summer blockbusters in an effort to look cool or join the crowd also enjoys movies such as transformers and will all together get more out of the movie going experience.
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Soylent-Red
15 years ago
"For the action film genre Transformers is an exceptional movie."
Wow, you just instaflawed everything and anything you said, say and will say.
/ignore
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trompos
15 years ago
Most of your post just agrees with me that the movie is full of silly plot holes.
This got me about your post though.
"JuJitsu is from Japan and not from Brazil. Hence the samurai code and all that. You are right, a Brzilian would NOT have done what Jo did cuz they did not in the same life that Jo had (see above). I wouldnt think Terry would have done the same but he is humble by Jo's action. Terry's school and philosophy is of this pure samurai, Japanese form. Jujitsu does not make you a samurai either. Your buddy wouldnt have gotten it cuz lets face it, Brazil is a great country but when was the last time any of them killed themself for a shame or for an emperor or if you also note that the word hari kiri is NOT Brazilian/Portuguese. And yes, I have hung out with Brazilians and it was not a dude or a beefy fighter but a gorgeous spicy little number..and two...and yes, she shoots and all that and she is NOT a samurai either."
This was confusing as well. Which did Terry do? Brazilian Jiujitsu or Japanese Jiujitsu? The belt rankings white, blue, purple, brown. black, and red were pure BJJ, but he reads a traditional JJ book. The "old man" is a Brazilian, his wife too, the bad guy fighter, the brother all Brazilians. There were Brazilian flags in the school, yet he goes on about samurai and Japanese mumbo jumbo. I read, I think on this very thread, that DM is a purple belt. He should know these things. I hate to be hung up on the little things but no one does not need a black belt to instruct, no there is not only one red belt in the world, no JJJ is not the same as GJJ/BJJ.
If you love Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it, copy this and make it your signature!
PS:<Instructor goes to a bar to talk to cop quit bouncer job in bar is deadbeat action star (Tim Allen? Really?)fight breaks instructor saves actor's life>
"Doing well so far...actually he went there to check on Jo the cop's recent unemployment NOT to ask Jo to quit."
I meant that Joe quit his job, not that Terry was there to ask him to quit. I was cutting it short hence the lack of commas and articles.
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oztinseptember
15 years ago
ta ta.
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menacmx
15 years ago
well I hope this was educational for you oztinseptember. Once again watch a movie for entertainment. Read a book for philosophy.
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marcjacobspants
15 years ago
>> And why did they want to scam a penniless instructor anyway? <<
Usually DM's stories have a few twists. I admit this is not one of my favorites of his movies.
I believe it was the wife. They didn't want to "scam" him so much as to use him to make themselves rich.
As I interpret it, basically the wife wanted a more rich/successful life, and obviously knew her husband was a talented fighter. Though, in order for her to obtain the riches she wanted out of life she needed her husband to be part of a bigger profit making organization. A small training school was not going to do it. Neither was her fabric/dress making business (if that was even 'real', we don't know, could have been part of the scam too).
So she conspired with her brother and others to get him to fight. I do think the plot required him to be a well known fighter and the fans in the crowd seem to know him and the announcer says "you know him". So, according to the plot, Terry being a fighter with a reputation for skill and honor would have lent credibility to the new league.
So perhaps the wife made up this "I'm in debt" story as part of the conspiracy to force him into the ring. Once he started to fight, as the story went, he would fight again "in the rematch" and, I suppose, everyone would get what they wanted (except Terry). It would have worked too, if Terry didn't see the marble trick.
I think the film could have worked better in some ways. For example the cop didn't need to kill himself. He could have also been part of the conspiracy. I don't know why the cop is in the film at all. Or if the wife came out and admitted her guilt (think House of Games). And then when Jo says "...I sent the watch.." that was supposed to be the big reveal (along with them telling him "it was your wife... sometimes you just have to get paid.. etc". All that was supposed to make you realize the larger conspiracy, but it was rushed and kind of confusing because the characters' motivations aren't set up very well. It does leave one a little confused as to what is going on.
I give DM some credit for trying to melt his style into something more physical but on many levels this didn't work. Perhaps ambiguity is what he wanted here - if so he succeeded. I think DM is a great writer and obviously very prolific. He comes up with story after story and they are a lot of fun to watch the layers peel away. On this one though, it didn't work well for me. I believe DM knew what he was doing, so I won't insult him by saying he could have thought it through a few more times (even though it feels like it was rushed together) - so ultimately I just say that DM knew what he was doing, he tried to do something he has done many times before only differently, but it didn't work for me.
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