Got it.
And what you write make sense, if you hold that governments are instituted by God (god) Reality, or the Supreme Being, to uphold his sovereign will with regard to the mayhem, death and corruption as represented by same, with no blame to lay on those who are governed.
I am quite familiar with Romans 13:1-8, as well as Peter 2:13,14 and Titus 3:1.
And every bad or good act they do is gods will and we had it coming, according to the bible.
Would you say that governments of the 20th century, were by and large, the result of popular elections, in other words chosen, by the people under their leadership?
Is it more accurate to say, god put evil men in power, or like the Israelites of Samuel 8:5,
demanded it despite the warnings of what would ensue as a result?
Is it a contradiction to be a Christian and still oppose the corrupting power and evil that results from living in an era of popularly elected leaders, or dictators and tyrants?
Or as Christians should we say "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God." Acts 4:19 and "We must obey God rather than men." Act 5:29, when governors and leaders, whether elected or not, present rules and actions contrary to the established will of God through Christ?
Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken
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siimtuulik
8 years ago
Simply put, all is the plan of an all knowing god, according to christianity, that is. So whether people actually got to "choose" or not, it was all pre-planned from the beginning. And in a sense there is no free will when all is known ahead of time, thoughts, actions etc.
It would be more accurate to say that there is no reason to even think that there is this god figure. But to amuse your point, it still goes with the plan of god, and for him being all knowing ahead of time. So he already knew what was going to happen and he did it anyways.
And many governments/authority figures did horrible things even before the 20th century so it does not excuse christians or their god one bit.
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rj-27
8 years ago
If you will bear with me a little more and amuse my point: Because God knows the outcome ahead of time, but sets the boundaries knowing they will be crossed anyway, what is the alternative? To create that which runs on autopilot doing what is always the morally correct and upright thing to do? Or, like animals who just do what they do because they are animals and have no choice but to act according to their nature?
The evil that men do is either the result of their flawed nature and character, or it has to be attributable to something else.
Put another way, if Hitler was really crazy, then he bears no responsibility for his actions.
Because God is the author of creation, knowing the result would eventually be evil, then the bottom line is - it's his fault for making us in the first place and allowing the capacity for evil to exist.
Existence exists. Reality exists. It does no good to lay blame at the feet of those who attribute our existence and reality to a Creator, who made us with the capacity for choice even knowing ahead of time what the outcome would be. Religion, per se, is not the problem. Men are and the choices they make. What is the answer to that?
Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken
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siimtuulik
8 years ago
If you knowingly teach your kids in a certain way, knowing ahead of time, that because of it they will do horrible things when they grow up. Is it really the children's fault or yours?
Plus you are almost implying that there is either current version or a morally right autopilot. Would you not agree that an all powerful and all knowing god could create a world such as ours, with infinite free will while with no evil.
Or do you find that to be impossible for god?
An all powerful and all knowing god has endless options while creating the universe, he supposedly chose this F'd up version to be the best course of action.
***Daily billions of animals suffer greatly from being eaten alive. While they had nothing to do with the sin entering the world.
***Millions of kids die every year of starvation and from easily curable diseases.
***War, rape, murder, torture and other horrible acts happen daily.
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The difference between your god and me is that, when i see a child suffering or a person being raped i do anything in my power to stop such a thing from taking place. I do not watch idly by as the perpetrator does his/her thing and maybe later i punish him. (depending whether he worships me or my son, and then asks forgiveness)
Now you might think that god doesn't want to interfere with free will.
Well then, isn't the victim just suffering that, isn't the victims free will being taken away at that moment.
In that case your god would hold the criminals free will to higher importance over the victims.
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Anyways, i could go all day talking about why and how the god of the bible is one of the most evil characters of all fiction. I understand that you feel different towards that subject. I was a christian once actually, so i do feel what you might feel.
I understand that religions are crafted over great periods of time to be very alluring and reassuring for people.
I urge you to think for yourself. Read your bible and study it yourself.
And you could ask this easy question from yourself.
What makes my religion any different from the rest?
Why is my belief any different from the rest?
4200 other gods to choose from, while christianity itself is divided into over 30 000 version, but i am sure you happen to have the right one, just saying ;)
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rj-27
8 years ago
You've said a lot of interesting things.
If I may, let's simplify as much as we can so as to not cloud the issue, which is: Christians are told to submit to government; government makes horrible conditions for human existence in many, if not most, instances; God appoints all governments; God knew ahead of time the outcome and so is the author of the evil men do; Christians believe in God and the Bible, therefore Christians have a lot to answering to do.
A summation of your thought process is a standard argument against a caring, loving, God.
Since there is evil coexisting with a God who, had he chosen, could have created a world with universal love rather than this "f----- up" one we find ourselves in, then it follows there must be no God. Or, at least not the God Christians portray him to be.
Your argument presupposes the fact of God's existence. Because if he doesn't exist, then what is the point of your argument, other than to lambaste Christians who hold to the idea that not only does God exist, but he speaks?
I affirm Reality, not wishful thinking or some conceptual Utopia that cannot be.
Reality sets the rules. You and I can scream and shout all day long, and it doesn't change the fact that, not properly recognized, Reality will be our judge.
It may look warm and sunny outside, but if I insist on going out naked in 20 below zero weather, I will die.
Reality remains independent of all perception, though everyone's view of it is unique. Believe it or not, I appreciate your point of view and thank you for sharing it.
Would it change your perception if God were better termed by his own sacred name which can be justly understood as Existence/Reality/Being?
Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken
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siimtuulik
8 years ago
What random nonsense. Like most pastors and such talk to act all knowledgeable about it, while not answering anything.
And i already told you way back that
It would be more accurate to say that there is no reason to even think that there is this god figure. But to amuse your point....
Now buzz off if you plan on being this sort of a cowardly and dishonest character.
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rj-27
8 years ago
Well. I certainly didn't plan on it. My points and questions were most sincere. I cannot fault you, though, for not recognizing it since I didn't take the usual argumentative gain say approach.
Thank you for your participation and your patience.
Bzzzzzzz!
Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken
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siimtuulik
8 years ago
Yeah yeah, tell it to your mother that you didn't plan it or that you were most sincere.
I specifically said earlier. To make it clear.
It would be more accurate to say that there is no reason to even think that there is this god figure. But to amuse your point, it
And even you pointed it in another reply.
If you will bear with me a little more and amuse my point
And now you start with this nonsense.
Your argument presupposes the fact of God's existence. Because if he doesn't exist, then what is the point of your argument, other than to lambaste Christians who hold to the idea that not only does God exist, but he speaks?
I affirm Reality, not wishful thinking or some conceptual Utopia that cannot be.
You are either a fool or dishonest to start that nonsense. And i don't think you are a fool.
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Tell you what. Why don't you answer those following questions with a yes or a no answer.
Can you do that?
Following the bibles account
1)Do you believe that humans came from Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden?
2)Do you believe that Noahs flood took place as described?
Example
1)Yes
2)No
No much to ask isn't it? Just easy yep or noup.
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