MovieChat Forums > Sons of Anarchy (2008) Discussion > Clay as a leader

Clay as a leader

posted 8 years ago by jmsocool
11 replies | jump to latest

I just recently started watching the show on Amazon Prime, about a third of the way through Season 2, so please don't spoil anything for me.

Is Clay a good leader? I wonder if the club should be questioning his judgement for this reason: Clay runs the garage, which I think would provide a decent, middle-class income, but he also has them engaging in criminal activities, so they should be financially secure, but it seems like they're always broke. Why continue committing crimes, with the risks of getting caught/imprisoned, or getting killed, if there isn't sufficient payoff?

The whole risk/reward equation doesn't seem to add up.

"My girlfriend sucked 37 d*cks!"
"In a row?"

[–] julia-solovjova 8 years ago

Clay was the coolest character up until s4. Then he turned into a massive prick.

[–] KingCobra686 8 years ago

He is charismatic and very good at convincing others to follow him and work as a group toward goals, which are strong straits in leaders. But he is also unethical and ruthless and puts the club in lots of unnecessary danger, and that is bad in a leader who is reponsible for others.

[–] ztate84 8 years ago

Spoilers below.....

Yeah, King Cobra, you are 100% right!

And once upon a time, his traits and leadership worked well and no doubt made serious profit with all their gun running.

But when During the first two seasons of SOA, we see that his way is becoming a thing of the past and times are changing. They are too busy paying off lawyers and taking care of families of the guys that are in the joint. Which is noble, but not necessary if you have legit income besides Teller-Morrow Auto Repair.

The old ways that he holds dear to himself are what become his and McGee's undoing. It wasn't long before Clay betrayed the Patch and his family to cash out and retire with prosperity, just like McGee in S3.

Aside from Jax's revenge mission in S7, he was better than Clay as a leader up until that point.

[–] julia-solovjova 8 years ago

Jax was better in a way that he had a noble vision for the club, to go legit, to get away from guns, drugs, and violence. However, when he became president he turned into an arrogant bully. He offered Tig up to be killed by a rival, he got Juice to do his dirty work, later set him to be raped in prison, used his own family as a bait to hurt Clay. Ok, he had a legitimate reason to hate Clay, but offering up his children to a psychotic grandmother just to get his way was a new low. I just think, if Clay had gotten away to Ireland, he would have taken the gun trade with him, as well as Gemma away from Tara and boys.

Overall, As a leader Jax was smarter and with long-term goals, but Clay was a nicer person.

[–] KingCobra686 8 years ago

Jax had good intentions, but didnt have the skill to put them into effect.

I think if the timeline had been switched and Jax had been president before Clay, things would be a lot different. Jax could have kept the club legit if he had been around for the start, possibly, but he was not capable of doing that while dealing with the mound of mistakes the club had built up over the decades.

[–] mgreen9715 8 years ago

Clay started out as a decent character but was a *beep* human being. He became a liability in the later seasons and he should have died a lot sooner.

[–] ztate84 8 years ago

Julia, you bring up good points, like always, but i wouldn't go so far as to call Jax a bully per say.

In his eyes, Gemma, Juice, and Tig needed to redeem themselves for past sins. And let's face it, those three were far from innocent.

To be fair though, had I been Juice, I would have done the same thing to protect my MC from being destroyed. Tig was a loose cannon who acts first and thinks secondly, nuff said there.

Jax could have easily drummed Juice out, and left Tig to Damon Pope's malice. He only handed him over to August, because he couldn't keep protecting Tig and keep his club whole. If he hadn't cooperated, August would have crushed his club.
Lucky for him August changed his mind and thought that the gun business was more important than avenging Pope's daughter, as every man has his price.

Jax only put the death of Darvini on Juice, because he had a vast knowledge of drugs and could make it look like she overdosed. And he wanted to prove to Chibs that Juice could be trusted, as he was still skeptical about Juice's loyalty, even. after he threw him a beating.

[–] julia-solovjova 8 years ago

Jax treated Tig and Juice as expendables in his personal vendetta against Clay, whilst blackmailing them to always vote in his favour. That had nothing to do with them redeeming themselves.
He was even worse with Gemma. She was a right mess after break-up with Clay, finally she found some peace and comfort with Nero. Then Jax forces her to go back to a man who abused her, using his own children, whom she endangered, like some carrot on a stick reward. I felt so bad for Tara at the moment -- she wanted nothing more but Gemma out of their lives for good.

[–] ztate84 8 years ago

I felt bad for Tara too, but she did chose to stay when Jax urged her to take the boys to Oregon.

I respectfully disagree about Juice and Tig though. If he wanted them dead, he would've done so, with or without club rule. Jax always felt obligated to prove that he wasn't like Clay, and trying to prove that he was a better leader too, hence the title of our thread ;)

I do agree with you that he did use them as expendables, but I still think he wanted them to redeem themselves for the Reaper.

But as we all know, Juice met Mr. Mayhem in Stockton.

[–] timosullivan-09439 8 years ago

clay used tig all the time he used his loyalty to his adventure.

[–] ztate84 8 years ago

I wouldn't go so far as to say that he used Tig, at least not intentionally.

Let's not forget from Season 1-4, Tig was the Sgt At Arms, aka Clay's right hand. Clay depended on Tig to carry out the difficult duties, because Tig probably grew up idolizing Clay from a young member while Clay was starting his reign as Prez (or VP during those days) In the finale of Season 1, you see a nice tender moment between the two, as Clay embraces Tig and tells him that they'll get through this travesty (Donna incident) together.

Clay even said during "Family Recipe" that Tig was the only one he trusted to keep Gemma safe. But unfortunately Clay's greed and paranoia about Tara and Piney's leverage got the better of him and he closed the doors on everybody physically and mentally. I think he shut everybody out because he hated himself for killing Piney, beating Gemma, and trying to have Tara killed. He was losing control, losing his family, and losing his power all at the same time. He knew that his days of riding were few and far between, and it drove him crazy.

Those of you might not agree with my analysis, and that's cool as you're all entitled to your opinions. I just gave mine, and I hope to hear yours too.