MovieChat Forums > Wallander (2009) Discussion > Did they really kill swans for the Befor...

Did they really kill swans for the Before the Frost episode?


Did they really kill swans for this episode?

reply

No. They'd have been in a dozen different kinds of trouble.

reply

That sequence horrified me, all the same. When I re-watch that episode I actually have to skip past it now. I was fairly certain it was impossible that they'd used real birds, but the special effects are grotesquely realistic.

(It's BTW not impossible for film makers to get around animal cruelty laws at times. There is a persistent rumour that a live kitten was burned to death for filming a sequence in the 1970's American B-horror picture 'Bug', and there have been tales of other animals injured or killed on set--most notably a live buffalo which was shot to death in the Robert Redford film 'Jeremiah Johnson'. I recall that scene provoking a huge outcry at the time, and it led to much tighter ASPCA restrictions on the use of animals in films in the United States.)

I would imagine a country as progressive as Sweden would likely also have some pretty tough animal-abuse laws pertaining to this.

reply

Thank you. I can't watch that scene. Especially after the opening, when the filmmakers filmed the swans coming in for a landing on the lake. That was so exquisitely done, it took my breath away.

reply

You're quite welcome...It is a beautifully filmed sequence--so beautiful that it makes the subsequent scene all the more terrible. Insofar as its' being a highly devastating moment, the director couldn't have done it more effectively. But I still cannot watch it again.

reply

[deleted]

I haven't watched the entire episode, but I have seen the first scenes where the swans land on the sea, are lured to the shore and subsequently burned. I can say with certainty that there is now way a film crew could have circumvented animal cruelty laws in Sweden and actually killed the swans. Also, I believe few filmmakers of sound mental health would even consider doing something like that, even if it were legal.

reply

The ending of apocalypse now too...

reply

Both of the movies you cite are very old and were made before many of the current rules and regulations covering the protection of animals when making movies or tv shows were implemented.

A more recent example might be the HBO tv show Luck, where a couple of horses had to be killed b/c of injuries sustained during filming.

reply

At the beginning of the 1970 movie "Patton" two donkeys that are blocking the road are shot and pushed over the bridge. That part of the movie was filmed in Italy and the donkeys were killed. American SPCA did cause an uproar when it found out.

reply

I just turned the TV on to watch this, and ended up very disturbed. I am sure of course it was special effects, but a warning might have been nice. I am not good with these kinds of images at all, and it put me off watching the show. I do sometimes wonder why these sorts of things seem to disturb us more than murders of humans (on the screen, that is) and I often ask myself why this is....but I know I am someone who finds any killing of animals in movies and shows very bad....any ideas.

reply

Apathy... It´s apathy. We are used to see murders, traffic accidents, poor people starving to death in Africa every single day. You see it in TV, newspapers, internet. You see it everywhere. And maybe, that for a moment you tell yourself that horrible things are happening, it touches you... but then you continue eating your dinner and forget it. We got used to it.

(Why do you think that reporters always go for the cruelest details, why they describe everything? Because we as a society are used to see and hear about horrible crimes and things and the only way how to get our attention again is to shock us.)

But we still somehow regard animals for innocent creatures. They can´t speak, they can´t tell us what they exactly feel. They are vulnerable - and we look at them in very similar way like we are looking at babies (and violence against babies is still considered as something utterly evil - thank god).

That´s why you are disturbed.

reply

I posed my question rhetorically really, as I know the reasons but you are right. I am a Brit, and I still get shocked by what I see on TV over here in the US.....I remember when I first got here, over 10 yrs ago, and saw this program called 'Breaking news'...wow, a man got shot, on TV, I was horrified, and I still am, but yes, I am used to it more now I think. News should just be re named Bad News, cos that's all that you see. I always thought a great show would be 'Happy News' but realized no-one would be interested in it!

reply

There does seem to be a disturbing trend emerging in US entertainment mediums to sometimes depict animal abuse and death for shock value. I've not only seen it to some extent in movies and (to a much lesser extent) mainstream tv, but also in things like graphic novels, literary works, and of course, the free-for-all that's known as YouTube. It worries me that we may be entering a place where cruelty to the most extremely vulnerable could become one more horrendous thing repeated media exposure 'helps' desensitize us to collectively. If so, gods help us, because we're really going to be boarding the slow boat to Hell if that becomes the case.

At least the Before the Frost sequence, was, I felt, intended to show us the utterly evil nature of the cult leader. I don't think the scene was intended for any reason other than to make a strong point, but there's a very fine line between attempting to make a strong narrative point and pure gratuitous and sensationalistic exploitation of our worst impulses in the use of imagery and ideas such as this. And I don't think there are many responsible purveyors of 'entertainment' around these days who are always capable of drawing that line or knowing to avoid crossing it. Or even knowing/caring that such a line exists.

reply

You took the words right out of my head.

I am sick to my very soul at the heartless exploitation and horrific abuse of animals in both "reel" and real life. What have we become?

Animal abuse is rampant in our society and ramping it up on screen is only creating more fodder for the sick and twisted #$%!& among us, all of whom I could happily dispatch, and enjoy a hearty meal, after.



reply

It definitely worries me. I sometimes wonder if I'm just being unusually oversensitive, or if there really *is* a rather drastic uptick in the levels to which this kind of action is increasingly being greenlighted as 'acceptable' within an entertainment context.

I'm fairly certain that it isn't just me, and that there does appear to be a rather frightening trend in that direction. I know that I'm old enough to clearly recall a time when these kind of depictions were considered offensively shocking, an did seem to be less palatable to audiences, and 'entertainers' who trucked in it *much* more likely to be attacked for for its use than they seem to be nowadays.

Anyway, thanks for your reply. I'm glad to know that there are people around who share this attitude. Sometimes, when you look around this site, and around the Internet in general, you tend to get a little disheartened by the degree to which cruelty and abuse (of animals, of children, of the elderly and the mentally disabled, among others) appears more and more to be an okay trope to exploit for entertainment, and, god save us, even 'humor'.

reply

It definitely worries me. I sometimes wonder if I'm just being unusually oversensitive, or if there really *is* a rather drastic uptick in the levels to which this kind of action is increasingly being greenlighted as 'acceptable' within an entertainment context.

I'm fairly certain that it isn't just me, and that there does appear to be a rather frightening trend in that direction. I know that I'm old enough to clearly recall a time when these kind of depictions were considered offensively shocking, an did seem to be less palatable to audiences, and 'entertainers' who trucked in it *much* more likely to be attacked for for its use than they seem to be nowadays.


agreed

reply

I didn't even understand why the murderer was targeting animals in the first place. If he had a problem with society why target innocent animals--it didn't make sense. And he later sets fire to the school biology lab killing all the animals there too.







"And all the pieces matter" (The Wire)

reply

Two points. Someone who is mentally (or emotionally) twisted, and wants to be violent knows that he would be in terrible trouble if he "killed" his little sister, but the neighbor's cat is fair game. He doesn't want to go to jail, or be punished in any way; he doesn't want the police to question him, or his father to withhold money, or his mother to withhold food, so he kills animals instead of family members.

Of course, we know that it is just a matter of time before that kind of sick nut moves on to humans; but he waits until he isn't dependent on his parents for life's necessities.

The other question raised is why we "don't care" about humans suffering. One reason is possibly because people have intelligence and options. We don't have an enemy species with guns, who can move against us, at random. We are victims because of basic evil, and we cannot always identify that before the "bad" person commits atrocities. Then, after a period of time and a process, we can lock that person up for a period of time (and, in very few cases, have them executed for their crimes).

The reason that many folks don't respond to "starving" or "sick" children (usually depicted in Africa or other third world countries) for the simple reason that starving children don't just pop out of the ground. They were conceived by a male and a female, acting in unison, and that man and that woman need to take care of that child. IF they are irresponsible, then the families of that man and that woman need to take care of the children. If the families are irresponsible, then local charities need to take care of the children. If the local charities are irresponsible, then the church needs to take care of the children. If the church is irresponsible, then the local government needs to take care of the children. If the local government is irresponsible, then the state government (or province) needs to take care of the children. If the state government is irresponsible, then the national government needs to take care of the children.

There is NO WAY in the world that folks of limited income in the USA, with our current level of taxation, and the threats of more to come through our current administration, should endanger their future, or their children's future, or coming needs of their own parents, or be made to feel guilty about children being born of lazy parents on the other side of the world. When we are in need, there isn't a single soul in Africa who will send us a nickel. There is a very real threat that everyone who is on a fixed income now is in danger of dying a pauper. Yet, these money-grubbing agencies have no shame in trying to make folks feel guilty for still possessing a dollar of their own! They are trying to ensure THEIR futures by destroying ours. It's time we wised up and stopped being patsies for the guilt brigade.



reply

Yes, but it's not the children's fault, for goodness sake. Children do not have 'intelligence and options' at such an early age...Many children are born during conflict, many have been born after rape, it's not as simple as you think. And calling them 'lazy parents, how do you know this??? And I personally don't give to receive. If I can help I try. That's all you can do. And really, I don't think making a small donation to help a sick child would 'endanger your future....' It's interesting that you talk about the differences between animals and humans, but the one thing you don't mention is our ability to have empathy for our fellow man.

I do however agree with the first part of your response....it's common knowledge that many serial killers start killing defenseless animals prior to moving on to human victims.

reply

That link between violence against animals and violence against humans has been well-documented. I've had chilling first-hand experience with a child who committed violence against animals; mental illness runs throughout the child's family. We lost track of the child, who is now grown. We suspect the child may be in prison, after having committed other crimes. Debtysall makes a good point about the complexities of child-rearing, especially in so many varying situations. There are no easy answers whenever humans are involved.

Put puppy mills out of business: never buy dogs from pet shops! 

reply

'Breaking news' isn't a program here in the US, but just what it says: news that's happening right at that moment, whether it's being reported by a local TV news station, or a 24-hour news channel. They ALL have 'breaking news'.

As for the gore factor: The first time I saw a really gory breaking news segment was in the mid-80s, when the local news teams were covering a hostage situation in town. Just as I decided to get some tea while that stupidity was going on, the hostage-taker shot himself in the head. I was so appalled at a station actually showing such a horrible thing that I turned off the TV and decided to read a book instead. But most Americans were probably shouting at the TV, "Show us the exit wounds! Show us the brain bits!"

It's a sick, sick country.

reply

I was right in the mix agreeing with what people were writing but then you had to bash America. Where did you come up with that generalization? That "most Americans were probably shouting..."Show us the exit wounds...""? I was born and raised here and I literally don't know ONE person who feels that way. In fact, the majority of my friends are huge animal rights activists and they'd be appalled by this kind of scene.

As for showing live murders on the news; most stations aren't looking for that kind of score on screen. If not just because of the FCC and all kinds of trouble they can catch, but also because viewers tend to complain about stuff like that showing up on their TV. Unfortunately, part of the dangers of filming crimes in progress is that you can't predict what's going to happen. There are no time delays in live TV news, they're just as surprised as we are. That's the peril of live news. Not that they wouldn't show live executions for ratings if it were allowed but, as far as I know, that's still off limits.

I'd already decided not to watch this show based on the swan scene information that I learned about here. I was really glad that I'd looked up this series before I started watching. The information that I read in this thread was very helpful. I can't handle that kind of stuff and it makes me sad just to read about it much less seeing it. I really hope that everyone is right and that it's just F/X. I'm just grateful for the heads up.

Are you from America? Either way, citizen or no, surely there must be other countries to which your sensibilities are better suited. America has problems, no doubt about it, but if you really believe that it's so awful, why do you live here? You might want to start looking. No one likes a miserable guest.



prtfvr

reply

I am a Brit, and I still get shocked by what I see on TV over here in the US.....I remember when I first got here, over 10 yrs ago, and saw this program called 'Breaking news'...wow, a man got shot, on TV, I was horrified, and I still am, but yes, I am used to it more now I think. News should just be re named Bad News, cos that's all that you see. I always thought a great show would be 'Happy News' but realized no-one would be interested in it!


I agree completely! This relief from American crime dramas (many of which I have stopped watching, such as "Law & Order - SVU") is part of what draws me to shows like "Wallander" and others such as "Foyle's War", "Inspector Lewis" and lately, "Sherlock". It's so refreshing NOT to endure the constant dashing around, shouting, gun battles and car chases that are mandatory in most American crime dramas (one notable exception is the short-lived "Numb3rs", in which an FBI agent calls upon his math genius brother to solve cases.

However, "Wallander" does have its grisly moments, such as the swans, but worse, the episode with the religious cult and self-immolations. To me anyway, that was far more upsetting than burnt swans! Also, they had the Latvian police officers washing up on shore after having been tortured with sulfuric acid ("Dogs of Riga")! Nasty...

I think that scenes like that, as well as the swan slaughter serve a real purpose; they allow us to feel Wallander's deep sensitivity to the world's cruelty and his inability to let it go in his private life (which is why he basically HAS none!). Sadly, we are so inured to human violence, that it takes extreme situations, like the swans or torture victims, for us to be shocked.

My only complaint about "Wallander" is that I wish he would stop living so far out in the country that he seems to spend half of his day commuting back and forth from work to crime scene to home!



She deserves her revenge, and we deserve to die.

reply

I read this book and went to watch the episode last night but never got past the swan scene...then I remembered other animals being killed in the book and did not want to risk seeing that. I can't bear to watch animal cruelty, even on television. The difference for me, as to why it seems much worse to see animals tortured than even people on TV is that animals have never done anything to get themselves into certain situations...while people sometimes do.

reply

I daresay debtysall, I'd probably program any show called "Happy News" into my DVR  Indeed, we require an antidote for the relentless onslaught of negative news stories that have steadily desensitised us against the horrors humans perpetrate against other humans.

Mind you, when it comes to YouTube, the sad/happy quotient is almost balanced by videos of successful animal rescues. It gives one that much needed reminder that altruism isn't quite dead and that good people need support to negate the cruelty of not-so-good people.

reply

NO animals were killed. However, two people were burned alive. They were minor actors and were paid scale. In order to avoid acrimony, both actors were Christians and the anonymous stunt coordinators who oversaw the deaths were Muslim and atheist, respectively.

reply

[deleted]

Though I have not seen this episode,we had a real incident in the area where I live in Northwest Las Vegas, NV, USA. Last year a 16 year old boy, for no reason than pure evil, killed the beautiful Black Swans and some Ducks and Geese that had graced our lakes. This evil deed was punished with probation. Our legal system sucks sometimes.

reply

That is very upsetting and I'm betting that the kid is severely disturbed, probably the result of child abuse, which gets far less news coverage AND legal consequences than animal cruelty! Not that people should not be upset by violence to animals, but why do they seem to care less about children?

Also, other people justify the killing of animals, specifically wolves, in very cruel ways, such as trapping and gassing pups inside their dens, by claiming that they're wiping out elk populations (not true); it's really the hunters who want to shoot the elk themselves!


I followed all the rules...and you followed none of them. And they all loved you more.

reply

No, if you watch the actual scene, it's pretty easy to tell that they did not actually show any real live birds on fire.

In the first part of the scene, all they show is a wall of fire that looks mostly CGI and it blocks any actual view of the birds - you do hear lots of bird noise, but do not actually see the birds. In the second part of the scene, they do very briefly show two burning birds flying, but they don't look real at all; this part looks very much like it was done 100% with CGI.

reply