So many English dubs muck around with the dialogue and meaning - I wonder if they are really worth bothering with??
Am I the only one who feels this way because this movie's dub, while acted okay, tweaked the language and dialogue a little too much in my opinion.
do people really watch with English dubs? I just can't watch anime with English voice actors, the performances are never good enough and never seem genuine. The original voice actors with subtitles is the best way to watch it.... or learn Japanese of course :P
share"the performances are never good enough and never seem genuine."
Cowboy Bebop, Black Lagoon, Noir. 'Nuff said.
"The original voice actors with subtitles is the best way to watch it."
What if the Japanese versions are awful? Hell, Elfin Lied's sub is famous for being awful.
"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children"
i'd rather read a few miss-placed words in a sub than listen to some idiot American *beep* up an entire performance
shareHow do the American Actors *beep* up the performance? In the examples I listed, All the English actors turn in superior performances. Black Lagoon I can't stand Subbed because the performances are so monotone it's not funny. Heck, half the time the performances don't match the animation, unlike the dub.
"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children"
I think foreign films should be seen in the way the director intended. Dubs do 'Americanize' anime's which is peculiar for something which is so typically Japanese.
It's also a metaphor for the West 'westernising' the rest of the world, as well as taking something and making it their own (because Hollywood is greedy and sees this as an easy way to earn money).
You wouldn't understand if you are American, as Americans think that they are the best, and only, country in the world.
Another aspect is that all Americans are too lazy to read subtitles, which is NOT true. Only 95% are too lazy -.-
"I think foreign films should be seen in the way the director intended."
1. Most dubs say exactly the same thing a subs with only slight variation due to having to match the lip flaps. This isn't the 90s anymore dude.
2. What if the director's intentions suck? All of Black Lagoon's funniest lines were dub inventions.
"Dubs do 'Americanize' anime's which is peculiar for something which is so typically Japanese."
That would make sense for a film like this which takes place in Japan, but what about Cowboy Bebop, a show which has a western feel. What about Noir, a show which takes place in Europe. It makes no sense for these characters to be speaking Japanese
"It's also a metaphor for the West 'westernising' the rest of the world, as well as taking something and making it their own (because Hollywood is greedy and sees this as an easy way to earn money)."
Are you seriously suggesting that America is the only country who dubs foreign films? What about other countries dubbing our films?
"You wouldn't understand if you are American, as Americans think that they are the best, and only, country in the world."
See Above.
"Another aspect is that all Americans are too lazy to read subtitles, which is NOT true. Only 95% are too lazy -.-"
See above
"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children"
You have a point about other countries dubbing American films. I never thought of it like that.
I still stand by what I said, even though you tried to prove me wrong. Now, I will analyse what you said :)
"1. Most dubs say exactly the same thing a subs with only slight variation due to having to match the lip flaps. This isn't the 90s anymore dude."
I'm not bothered about how it looks/'the lip flaps'. If an anime is intended to be with certain Japanese voices, in the Japanese language, it should stay like that. American voices are twangy and irritating, I don't see why you are 'for' them.
"2. What if the director's intentions suck? All of Black Lagoon's funniest lines were dub inventions."
Even if they were, the dubbers shouldn't replace dialogue. It's the same concept as spending three years building a boat, only for a guy to walk over and draw an American Flag on it.
Japan is a 'true' country, with 95% Japanese people living there. I see America thinking "WHY ARE YOU NOT WESTERNISED", and trying to influence there culture. Just let them be.
"That would make sense for a film like this which takes place in Japan, but what about Cowboy Bebop, a show which has a western feel. What about Noir, a show which takes place in Europe. It makes no sense for these characters to be speaking Japanese"
Most animes are set in Japan, but fine be awkward. If you were to watch the new Mandela film, shouldn't they be speaking South African, or Hotel Rwanda etc. Setting is irrelevant to the language they speak. It should be in the production language no matter what.
"Are you seriously suggesting that America is the only country who dubs foreign films? What about other countries dubbing our films?"
Fine, you got a point. I still think America is a pretty shameful country regardless. I went there on holiday once, there were queues for McDonalds breakfast leading out the door. Most of the country are rednecks, overly vocal christians, or wannabe gangsters. Their politics are a joke, their TV is shambles (Jerry Springer and Fox News etc), your celebrity culture is an embarrassment and you feel perfectly fine starting a war in innocent countries like Vietnam.
aah sorry, I feel as I have to go on a rant if anyone ever thinks America is the greatest at anything. But it's your opinion and I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just merely stating my opinion and having a good-old fashioned debate :)
"I'm not bothered about how it looks/'the lip flaps'. If an anime is intended to be with certain Japanese voices, in the Japanese language, it should stay like that.
I highly doubt you'd watch any film if the dialogue was completely offsinc with the mouth movement. Even if you are okay with it, most people aren't and it ruins the series for them.
"American voices are twangy and irritating, I don't see why you are 'for' them."
Again, this isn't the 90's anymore. Most dubs nowadays are just as good, if not better than the originals. You find American voices annoying, I tend to find Japanese voices annoying. They all sound the same! I'm watching Black Lagoon in Japanese and the voice for Rock sounds like Tomoya Okazaki from Clannad. Two completely different series yet they sound alike, just different dialogue. I also can't take Cowboy Bebop subbed seriously. The English Actors simply made the characters their own. You could switch Spike and Jet's subbed voices and it wouldn't make a difference, unlike the English voices.
"Setting is irrelevant to the language they speak. It should be in the production language no matter what."
By that Logic, a film like Apocalypto should be filmed in english. I also take this to mean you oppose dubbing of American films into other languages.
"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children"
Why are you guys even debating this....holy sheit
shareThis post is pretty old, but as an American, I can say that you experienced one small aspect of American culture in one part of America. I've never seen a line out the door at a McDonald's here. Most countries with TV programming have trash TV. The majority of Americans have no interest in stuff like "Jerry Springer", although many people do watch many news outlets without questioning what they're being fed. Most people here are not rednecks, outspoken Christians, and most of us never started any war anywhere. Our government did, yes, but that doesn't mean all of us support it (and of course, many people here do).
I don't think anyone was saying America is the "greatest" at anything. You can't just generalize any country... well, you can, but it won't be accurate. Every person is different.
It sounds like you saw only a small part of this country. I've only been to a few different states, but even within each state, people, the atmosphere, etc., are all a little different, even depending on the city. There's no reason to rant about a country you really don't know a whole lot about.
It's a shame when celebrities and trash TV end up representing an entire nation.
I, as well as most other people I know, are not "shameful".
"America" does not think "Why are you not Westernized?" when it comes to Japan. "We" are not trying to influence their culture. And yes, we are a "real" country. America maybe be different than most other countries, and we may not have centuries upon centuries of culture, but should that devalue the fact that we're people too?
Even if most of the country lined up for McDonald's breakfast every morning, then so what?
"American voices are twangy and irritating". There are many different accents here, but if you dislike most (or all) of them, then that's too bad for you. Maybe you could learn to look past how people talk and listen to what they're saying. Maybe many people here would have good things to say about you if you took the time to get to know them. Every country has nice, interesting, rude, weird, horrible people.
It sounds like you just really dislike America. If you want to debate, that's fine... but you're not really debating; you're basically ranting about very, very narrowly-conceived stereotypes of American people.
Also, you may have very well ended up having a different train of thought since this post, but I felt the urge to reply before reading further. Maybe making such harsh and generalized statements about an entire nation says more about you than the nation to which you're referring.
Yes, maybe there are many of us who think things like "America is the best", but those types of people tend to be much more outspoken than the rest. Ever think of that?
Back on subject...
To each their own. If you like dubs, then watch the dub. If you like subs, then watch the sub.
Honestly, I think without being at least semi-fluent in Japanese, it's hard to tell when the original dialogue actually sounds good or not, and of course, even then it's subjective. Personally, I like the original dialogue better 99% of the time, but I too usually prefer the English dub of shows like Cowboy Bebop, although I occasionally still watch them in Japanese anyway.
I have no idea what pissed me off when I commented that over a year ago. I'm much more relaxed about the sub/dub debate and the America debate now. You make good points. If you ask me now, I still find westernization a problem in the world. In Herzog's Burden of Dreams (a documentary set in the Amazon), he hires a tribe to help him with the film, and they all have clothes with western logos on them, and this one kid wearing a Disney shirt. Tribes untouched for hundreds of years to get plagued with the west. Globalisation isn't as good as it sounds. Russia and China are massive, and you don't see them being so vocal.
But yeah, I know its not your fault. I'd say a good 60% of the country is fine and normal. It is a minority that spoil it indeed. America is so easy to hate on 😜, (Bush killing over 100,000 civilians in Iraq and the country still loves him, how they came in at the last second during World War 2 and claimed the victory and now they won't stop talking about it, more attention to celebrities than politicians). Americans still believe they have the best film industry without taking into account the rest of the world (for example only 2 in this list) http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/list/100-greatest-films-all-time-7132 15
I'll stand up and apologise for generalizing the entire country in my previous comment.
As for the sub/dub debate, I still think sub is untouchable, but do what you want.
"Black Lagoon, Noir."
Those are two really crappy examples. You're confusing good acting and diction for yelling (or "doll voice" in Noir's case) and overdone monologues. You really need to expand your horizons from "Cowboy Bebop and everything that came out after". Backtrack a little. I'll provide some examples later in this post.
Dubs don't suck because they "ruin the intentions of the original". There is such a thing as a dub re-writing the script and making a show even better for an American audience (and it actually being better that way). Robotech and Samurai Pizza Cats: they were heavily edited from their respective sources, but they were great ****ing edits that successfully kept their audiences engaged. Hell, even the original Appleseed OVA is a good example, otherwise everyone would've fallen asleep through it.
The Japanese can do great visuals and can make creative stories, but a lot of the times they get caught up with their typical Japanese theatrics and pacing. It's just how they are, and it works for them, but it doesn't work for us and a lot of other places in the world, so dubs will most likely alter some things. There's a reason why Hollywood is where people from other countries dream of going to make it big in film: because we do well at almost everything and we usually do it for wider audiences (not to say actors don't do amazing things in their respective countires or to imply that the USA doesn't borrow/steal ideas from other countries to make great films). I know that's going to offend a lot of people here, but don't take my word for it. Do some homework.
BACK ON TOPIC:
No...dubs suck because of this: for over a decade, most producers dubbing an anime cast anime voice actors. Again, they cast ANIME voice actors. By that, I mean they get actors who do anime and Japanese-style video games and not much else. Their versaility is limited. Great dubs hire actors who have more range than anime (American animated productions, live film acting, stage acting, etc). Why do you think Miyazaki movies do so well over here, just because of the visuals and trippy plots? They get real actors.
Macross Plus: disappointing story, but beautifully drawn and well-acted. Why? The main character was Bryan Cranston. And if you don't know who he is then why are you even on this site? Cranston's character is full of life during the "hot shot" scenes and his acting chops brings the most out of it, over a decade before he did Breaking Bad.
Akira "Steamline" dub: noted for "out-acting" the newer Geneon/Animaze dub. Why? Cam Clarke and Jan Rabson. Cam Clarke actually put a delinquent/youthful personality into his character (Kaneda), while Bosch just read his lines in his normal voice. As for Joshua Seth (Tetsuo)...I like the guy, but it's obvious he was cast for his shrimpy vocal cords to make Tetsuo seem weak and whiny as possible, and it didn't amplify his character or "transformation" at all. Rabson did that just fine (if not better) with a completely bearable tone.
L.I.L.Y. Cat, Demon City Shinjuku, Wicked City, Venus Wars, Cyber City Oedo 808...the reasons I'm mentioning older titles is because they were dubbed before the time when producers would say "Hey, we're going to dub this anime. Get a bunch of the people who were in the last anime we did and put them in the lead roles." They hired actors from other areas or from people who obviously had plans beyond anime. Hence, better dubs. I guess the harshest way I can say it is: they hired REAL actors back then for lead roles. Coincidentally, this is also the time when dubs were considered the "worst", and there were indeed some stinkers.
You guys like David Hayter, right? Most people with opinions on voice acting know who he is and how well he did his character in Metal Gear Solid. Take a look at his non-anime resume before that, though. He had some range before anime/games and that's why he's so damn good. And other than reprising the character of Snake (well...not anymore), he obviously had bigger plans than to stick around doing more Japanese-produced stuff.
Johnny Yong Bosch did Power Rangers before he did Trigun, which means...absolutely nothing. He has a great voice and he's a nice guy, but his acting versaility stinks, and that's why he's still dubbing Bleach as we speak and does the occasional independant martial arts film that nobody has heard of.
"You're confusing good acting and diction for yelling."
What? Are you seriously going to tell me that the monotone shlock that was Black Lagoon subbed was acting, let alone good acting? The yelling made the characters sound more invested in what was happening.
"or "doll voice" in Noir's case."
I assume you're referring to Kirika. That "Doll Voice" was scary,creepy and yet sympathetic, much more compelling than the normal, bland voice in the sub.
"overdone monologues."
All the dubs did was translate those "overdone monologues" into English. The dub didn't write them.
"No...dubs suck because of this: for over a decade, most producers dubbing an anime cast anime voice actors. Again, they cast ANIME voice actors."
What's wrong with casting people they know they can rely on? Seems more practical than hiring someone whose never worked on an anime.
"Cam Clarke actually put a delinquent/youthful personality into his character (Kaneda), while Bosch just read his lines in his normal voice."
Cam Clarke youthful? He sounded like he was in his twenties. At least Johnny sounds like he is sixteen years old anyway.
"Their versaility is limited."
Considering most of the stories in anime, they seem versatile enough to perform the roles. Who needs to spend extra money on more experienced actors when the guys they have can get the job done?
"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children"
Honestly I don't really have time to re-watch in Japanese, so please do tell me how it was changed from the Japanese to English dub! Honestly the English dub seems perfectly fine. :\
shareThey added the 'f' word during the argument in the classroom - a word which isn't in the original Japanese version
shareThat sort of reminds me of how the original subbed version of K Project on Hulu has a TON of 'F'-words. They rated it MA for that. But then the dubbed version is rated 14+, and has them all taken out (or most; I haven't seen the whole dub yet). I don't know Japanese, so I can't say which is more accurate.
shareWhat that's all? A Whole lot of overreaction if you ask me.
"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children"