Jenny


In the Book Claire vs. Show Claire thread, I believe one comment that started a nice discussion was that showClaire is "rude and nasty." That could be a paraphrase of the original post, but definitely the gist of the conversation that followed.

I'd just like to say that I rewatched some of the episodes from the second part of season 1, "Lallybroch" and the episode that follows that one, and Jenny is no less rude and nasty than Claire. I think it's just the way that the show is written - that's the writers' interpretation of a strong woman? Most of Claire's comments paled in comparison to Jenny's comments. I liked Jenny in the first book (not so much by book 3), but on the show she's got an even sharper tongue than Claire.

I'm not saying that Claire isn't also rude at some points, but Jenny is much worse, in my opinion.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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I'm not saying that Claire isn't also rude at some points, but Jenny is much worse, in my opinion.


I agree.

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I agree, but I must admit I'm not a big Jenny fan. I like Claire, but Jenny is an even harsher version than Claire and there's where it gets too harsh for me. And in book 3 I really disliked her.

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I go back and forth on Jenny. I mean, sometimes the people she was rude to actually deserved it, but most of the time not. She didn't need to call Claire a trollop without even knowing who she was, nor insult her at the dinner table that night, etc. But once they go search for Jamie, she was tolerable.

I think we all say that maybe Claire should have known her surroundings and the people better before she mouthed off, but since Jenny was already much worse, and obviously accustomed to the time and people - was Claire really that bad?

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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While I consider Claire a loud mouth, arrogant cow in most of season one on the show and ok in season two, the only place I consider her having a nasty temperament is when she was having sex with Jamie and pulled a dirk on him after he had already promised to never hit her again. Sorry but that was major bitch move there and only for the show. While she did pull a knife on Jamie in the book it was before his pledge and they weren't having sex.

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I don't have a problem with that for two reasons, I guess. First, it was just for dramatic effect, and it worked. But second, he had already made his point with beating her, and now she was making hers. She needed him to know that she was serious - just like he needed her to know that he was serious when he beat her. (There's a cliche to use here, but I think the censors won't like it... 😜)

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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I would have had no problem with her putting a knife to his throat, but they screwed up the timing. Had it been before his pledge it would have been ok, but after the pledge and during sex, no. Because if you're still that mad at someone why are you having make-up sex with them?

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I agree. The knife should have been before the sex. By the time Jamie and Claire were having sex he had already promised not to ever beat her again. Having her hold a knife to his throat during sex was redundant and weird. I would certainly not be having sex with someone I thought I had to threaten with a knife! But I guess it was a "dramatic moment" for the show.

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I would have had no problem with her putting a knife to his throat, but they screwed up the timing. Had it been before his pledge it would have been ok, but after the pledge and during sex, no. Because if you're still that mad at someone why are you having make-up sex with them?
My feelings Exactly! Pulling a knife on him after his pledge and during sex was just plain ridiculous. In the book, she held the knife to his throat and that is when he made the pledge. It makes no sense to pull a knife on him after he has already made a plegde to never do it again. It actually made her look really stupid.

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It was angry sex and make-up sex in one.

If she had pulled the knife before his oath, then viewers could have interpreted it as his reaction, and not necessarily his idea in the first place. With making his oath first, it clearly shows that it was Jamie's idea. I don't blame Claire for not immediately forgiving him and accepting his oath. She got in her revenge, and then forgave him.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. To me it just made her look like a spiteful shrew.

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No problem, we can easily respectfully disagree. To me, it made her look like a woman who won't be a doormat.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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Haha, I agree, if I think about it, it was indeed a bitch move, BUT it was hot and therefor gets the seal of approval of me. I'm ready to forgive a lot more in that scene.

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When it really comes down to it - Sam Heughan was shirtless/naked in that scene. Who was paying attention to Cait/Claire? 😜

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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Yes, yes, I see you get my meaning. 

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it was indeed a bitch move, BUT it was hot and therefor gets the seal of approval of me. I'm ready to forgive a lot more in that scene.
It was most definitely a bitch move; but I didn't think it was sexy at all! I thought she looked really stupid welding a sharp knife at someone's throat while trying to grind. You're going to stab someone while having sex? Give me a break! She was holding the knife so awkwardly, I thought for sure Sam would be accidently stabbed.

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You're going to stab someone while having sex?

Well, no, that's the thing - she wasn't actually going to stab him. We all knew she wasn't really going to stab him. It was just a threat, while he was at his most vulnerable and she was in a power position... a reversal of when he had her bent over his knee.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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while he was at his most vulnerable and she was in a power position... a reversal of when he had her bent over his knee.
I would not call her position a reversal of his. Still very stupid in my opinion and anticlimatic after he had already pledged a very serious sworn oath: a vow not given lightly. Her knife to the throat just made his vow of no consequence.

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Her knife to the throat just made his vow of no consequence.

Yes. Was he really in a position to say no to her? That scene was only there for dramatic purposes. I didn't think it looked "hot" or sexy at all. I thought it looked awkward and idiotic. Even with a shirtless/naked Jamie.

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Still very stupid in my opinion and anticlimatic after he had already pledged a very serious sworn oath: a vow not given lightly. Her knife to the throat just made his vow of no consequence.

His vow had meaning to him. Her threat had meaning to her. They are two people from two very different times with two very different ways of handling something. Would such a vow really mean much to her in the 1940s? I know we say she's not a modern woman from our time, but I wouldn't take a vow like that seriously, and maybe she wouldn't either, even 60+ years ago. The scene was a good example of juxtaposing their beliefs and personalities, in my opinion. He did it his way; she did it her way - and they reached the same place. They each had to do something that meant something to them.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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

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Jenny is no less rude and nasty than Claire

I think Jenny is far worse than Claire. I hated her calling Claire a trollop. Didn't happen in the book, and shouldn't have in the show. Claire was her brother's wife! He chose Claire! Why would Jenny want to antagonize her brother and his new wife right off the bat? Jenny knew Jamie would not have married Claire unless he wanted to do it, regardless of what Dougal wanted. Calling Claire a trollop was a low blow, and Jenny didn't even know Claire; did she really think that was the type of woman her brother would marry?
Jenny is not my favorite character. I don't like how she treats people. She's too harsh right away, without provocation. I really don't like what she does in Voyager. No reason for it. Her explanation didn't do anything for me. Why not wait until Claire actually arrives and see what happens before you pull a stunt like that.

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👍

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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I

think it's just the way that the show is written - that's the writers' interpretation of a strong woman? Most of Claire's comments paled in comparison to Jenny's comments.
Yes, Claire and Jenny are much worse in the series than they are in the books. And sadly, writers, producers, all seem to not know the difference between a strong woman and a b*tch.

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I like Jenny! I appear to be in the minority. I think all she has is the tongue on her, and I don't blame her for using it, because to me, she actually seems to be in a fairly vulnerable position, and that's her way of disguising it.

She starts running a household age ten not because it is 'hers' but because her Mother dies and is no longer there to do it. She's keeping that house, and to some extent, the farm, the tenants and the estate for another woman, her younger brother's hypothetical wife. When she loses her father and her brother at about 21 she finds herself the perfect person, and the man she wants to help her do what she has been doing - holding everything together for everyone else. Would you expect her to be happy after 15 years of doing that very thing, when her brother walks in with a wife, a total stranger about whom she knows nothing, and who, by rights, can turn her out if she pleases.

Even after Jamie has deeded the estate to her son, she may in effect be the mistress of the place, but she's a guardian only, preserving as much as she can, not for herself but to pass to another. I think she is always aware of this which is why she eventually chooses to leave.

She has to be very tough to survive after Culloden. The men are imprisoned and in hiding, she's dealing with multiple pregnancies, lots of small children, and still having to feed the tenants and deal with the raids of the British solders who remain in the area. A delicate balancing act indeed to keep hold of everything they've managed to preserve.

I also think Jenny is pretty consistent re Claire and that everything she does is filtered through her incredibly deep love for Jamie. She responds to Claire depending on whether, at that time, she thinks Claire's presence is a good thing or a bad thing - for Jamie. Jenny may not always be right about that, but you can see that she this is how she works.

(edit) Jenny's default setting with Jamie is elder sibling, and therefore protector, and however silly that sounds in reality, that's the role she automatically adopts when these things come up.

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Newguise

I like Jenny, too. Finally someone who shares my exact opinion on Jenny. I completely agree with everything you posted.

The other reason I like Jenny is because she is so much like my own (younger)sister, in character. I can relate with Jenny and Jamie's relationship that way. My sister is so very bossy and always stands nose to nose with me whenever we are fighting with each other. So, yeahh.. I understand Jenny and her love for Jamie. No woman is ever good enough for her brother, is what most sisters think.

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At the point of Crisis and Annihilation, Survival is Victory- Dunkirk

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I totally agree with you, Newguise. Very well put. Jenny is a very straightforward person, who says it as she sees it but also has the Fraser temper. She didn't know why or where Claire had been for the past 20 years and she had a deep affection and a feeling of protection for her brother.

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Thanks Folks,

I don't know that I can express this very well, but I think that Jenny shows us where Jamie came from, in that she reflects that life. Where Jamie is much more nuanced and mature due to the things he has seen and lived through, all the experiences abroad, and with the MacKenzies, and then with Claire, Jenny sort of represents Jamie's core because they grew up in the same place, and she keeps that alive for him, at Lallybroch. Its always home for him because she is there, and her being there helps to make it so, even when he's far away.

I find it difficult that people who like Jamie so much as a character can find so much to dislike in Jenny. I do see them being similar in character, just divided by experience.

Told you I wouldn't be able to explain properly.

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Thought you explained it perfectly well, Newguise...and truthfully, you've given me reasons for her behavior, not excuses. That makes a difference to me. Thanks!

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Deep down to the core, I don't dislike Jenny. But she's rude and says rude, nasty things. Yes, she has reasons for her behavior - but in my opinion, so does Claire. So if we're going to call Claire rude and nasty, we need to call Jenny rude and nasty too. That doesn't mean we can't still actually like them both. That was the point of my original post.

(Though, let's face it, I can't stand her in book 3. She might love Jamie, but she sure doesn't care about what he actually wants for himself.)

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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(Though, let's face it, I can't stand her in book 3. She might love Jamie, but she sure doesn't care about what he actually wants for himself.)


She's trying to fight for him, and doesn't realise at first how much she is fighting against him. She's just desperate to keep him, and terrified of losing him, can you blame her for that?

She fails in the end, and she's honest with Claire in their 'root cellar showdown', so I can't hate her for it

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Laoghaire? Uh... yeah, I can blame her for that.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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Laoghaire? Uh... yeah, I can blame her for that.


So can I. Then sending for Leoghaire when Jamie and Claire returned was cruel, for everyone involved.

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Then sending for Leoghaire when Jamie and Claire returned was cruel, for everyone involved.

Exactly. What even was the point? Did Jenny honestly like Laoghaire more than Claire? She needed to trust her brother, even if she didn't understand the situation and where Claire had been. Ian did.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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Exactly. What even was the point? Did Jenny honestly like Laoghaire more than Claire? She needed to trust her brother, even if she didn't understand the situation and where Claire had been. Ian did.


Yes, I agree. I get that she was mad at Claire for seeming to have deserted them. But sending for Laoghaire like that was just cruel and also led to Jamie being shot by Laoghaire. If Claire had not come back with her antibiotics he would probably have died.

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And if Jamie wasn't mad for this so-called desertion, why was Jenny? Some things are just not her business.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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"You'll go again," she said, nearly whispering. "I knew ye would go again. You're not bound here, not like Laoghaire--not like me. And he would go with ye. And I should never see him again." She closed her eyes briefly, then opened them, looking at me under her fine dark brows.

"That's why," she said, "I thought if ye kent about Laoghaire, ye'd go again at once--and you did--" she added, with a faint grimace, "and Jamie would stay. But ye came back." Her shoulders rose in a faint, helpless shrug. "And I see it's no good; he's bound to ye, for good or ill. It's you that's his wife. And if ye leave again, he will go with ye."


My interpretation of this is that Jenny is afraid that Jamie will leave again with Claire. I don't think Jenny dislikes Claire, per se...she loves her brother dearly and just doesn't want to face the possibility of him leaving again. In Jenny's mind, Laoghaire would be the catalyst....Claire = jealousy = leaves....Claire leaves = Jamie stays.

Jenny is SELFISH, and yes, meddling like this was cruel to both Claire and Jamie. If I was to try to sum it up in Jenny's mine, "you're not going to steal my brother away from me again...I'll teach you...I'll put a stop to this...Go fetch Laoghaire!!"


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Jenny is SELFISH, and yes, meddling like this was cruel to both Claire and Jamie.

Exactly.

And, her comments also don't entirely make sense, because Jamie was already living in Edinburgh. He had already left. If Claire just left again, wouldn't Jamie go back to Edinburgh? He wasn't going to stay with Laoghaire - he'd already left her too.

By bringing Laoghaire to Lallybroch, and creating the need for the "divorce," and thus creating the need for Young Ian to get the treasure where he got kidnapped - arguably Jenny is the one who made Jamie leave again. Karma?

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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👍 Yep...her plan backfired and made things worse.

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Jenny feared that Claire would take Jamie from Scotland again.

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Jenny is very naive and ignorant, then. Because Claire is the one who got Jamie back to Scotland, by making a deal with the French king and getting him a pardon. Every other event that took Jamie away from Lallybroch was Jamie's own doing, or he was just a victim of circumstance - not Claire's fault.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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Every other event that took Jamie away from Lallybroch was Jamie's own doing, or he was just a victim of circumstance - not Claire's fault.


Well, letting BJR know that Jamie's around in Scotland is Claire's fault.. That eventually lead them to Paris.

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At the point of Crisis and Annihilation, Survival is Victory- Dunkirk

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I think you have to go back further - why did BJR even care in the first place? Jamie was already hiding from all redcoats. Would he have been able to stay hidden forever? Who knows. But Claire helped arrange for a potential pardon from the Duke of Sandringham which would have allowed him to stay at Lallybroch, then it was Jamie's own tenant who betrayed him.

Remember Jenny says "Four years and no word?" Jamie only knew Claire for 6 months or so. All his problems originate with BJR well before Claire is in the picture.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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Well, in the act of rescuing Claire, Jamie let BJR know that he's around.

But Claire helped arrange for a potential pardon from the Duke of Sandringham which would have allowed him to stay at Lallybroch, then it was Jamie's own tenant who betrayed him.


Here you are mixing both books and show. There wasn't any pardon arranged in the books. And it was indeed Jamie's own tenant who betrayed him, yes. But both Claire and Jamie end up at Lallybroch because of Claire's ignorance. She somehow wound up in witch trial and that resulted in them fleeing Castle Leoch..

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At the point of Crisis and Annihilation, Survival is Victory- Dunkirk

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Well, I was talking about the show, but yes, you're right - Rabbie McNab doesn't give Jamie up in the show. He's just caught on his own.

Well, in the act of rescuing Claire, Jamie let BJR know that he's around.

But that's what I'm saying - how long was he really going to stay hidden? Claire or no, I think the redcoats would have found him again. Remember that he's only just return to Scotland again from France as it is, when the show starts. Was that trip to France Claire's doing as well?

I think my point is is that Jenny's reason is ridiculous and she's extremely selfish, small-minded, and naive. Jamie comes and goes as he pleases, mostly all under his own volition except when he's arrested or captured. He went to live with Dougal as a teen, he went to France to the university and to be a soldier, he was arrested but then he fled and he stayed away hidden, he went to France again to recover from his head injury, he was captured again by the redcoats and he and Claire went to France. Then he lives in the cave, he arranges to be turned in to go to Ardsmuir and Helwater, and he goes to Edinburgh when he can't live with Laoghaire... I only see Claire involved in one of those.

And actually, the more I think about it - wasn't he whipped in the doorway and arrested the first time when he was trying to protect Jenny herself? Maybe she needs to blame herself instead.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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And actually, the more I think about it - wasn't he whipped in the doorway and arrested the first time when he was trying to protect Jenny herself?

Right, so that's Jenny's fault then? Nope. That's outright BJR's fault. He was sent to provoke the highlanders, and that's what he did. Come to think of it, it was Duke of Sandringhams fault. He set BJR on that mission. So, what do we see here? A chain of events, and it's almost everyone's fault that landed them in the position they were in.

And whatever Jenny did is what any loving sister in the world would do. I wouldn't fault her. And also I'm quoting my post I posted on this thread:

Also, people should take in consideration that why Jenny sent for Laoghaire, and a good thing she did, too. Everyone thought Claire was dead, and suddenly Claire makes an appearance after years of her supposed death. What should Jenny make of it? As far as Jenny is concerned, Claire left them and lived a 20 years life with no difficulties while Jenny and her family and the Lallybroch tenants almost starved to death every year.


And what else Jenny could've done? She didn't know Laoghaire and Claire had bad blood between them. All she thought was that they'd somehow sort things out, which mostly ends with Claire leaving (she's already left them once and lived happily, she could do it again, is what Jenny thinks). She didn't expect it to go as horribly wrong as it did. I don't see anything cruel about it, but her selfish love for her brother.

She's a very strong woman, more stronger than Claire ever is. She's gone a through a lot more than what Claire did and she stood strong at each and every moment.

I would like to put in a letter Jenny writes to Jamie in Book #5 that might help you understand Jenny better.. Give me a 10-15 minutes.

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At the point of Crisis and Annihilation, Survival is Victory- Dunkirk

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Here it is: Spoilers

September 16, 1771

Brother,

Well. Having taken up my pen and written the single word above, I have now sat here staring at it ’til the candle has burned almost an inch, and me having not one thought what I shall say. It would be a wicked waste of good beeswax to continue so, and yet if I were to put the candle out and go to bed, I should have spoilt a sheet of paper to no purpose—so I see I must go on, in the name of thrift.

I could berate you. That would occupy some space upon the page, and preserve what my
husband is pleased to compliment as the most foul and hideous curses he has been privileged to hear in a long life. That seems thrifty, as I was at great pains in the composition of them at the time, and should not like to see the effort wasted. Still, I think I have not so much paper as would contain them all.

I think also that perhaps, after all, I do not wish to rail or condemn you, for you might take this as a just punishment, and so ease your conscience in perceived expiation, so that you leave off your chastising of yourself. That is too simple a penance; I would that if you have wove a hairshirt for yourself, you wear it still, and may it chafe your soul as the loss of my son chafes mine.

In spite of this, I suppose that I am writing to forgive you—I had some purpose in taking up my pen, I know, and while forgiveness seems a doubtful enterprise to me at present, I expect the notion will grow more comfortable with practice.

You will be curious to know what has led me to this action, I suppose, so I will tell you.

I rode to visit Maggie early Monday last; she has a new babe, so you are once more an uncle; a bonnie wee lassie called Angelica, which is a foolish name, I think, but she is very fair and born with a strawberry mark on her chest, which is a charm for good. I left them in the evening, and had made some way towards home when my mule chanced to step into a mole’s hole and fell. Both mule and I rose up somewhat lamed from this accident, and it was clear that I could not ride the creature nor yet make shift to travel far by foot myself.

I found myself on the road Auldearn just over the hill from Balriggan. I should not normally seek the society of Laoghaire MacKenzie—for she has resumed that name, I having made plain in the district my dislike of her use of “Fraser,” she having no proper claim to that style—but it was the only place where I might obtain food and shelter, for night was coming on, with the threat of rain.

So I unsaddled the mule and left him to find his supper by the road, while I limped off in search of mine.

I came down behind the house, past the kailyard, and so came upon the arbor that you built.

The vines are well grown on it now, so I could see nothing, but I could hear that there were folk inside, for I heard voices.

The rain had begun by then. It was not but a smizzle, yet the patter on the leaves must have drowned my voice, for no one answered when I called. I came closer—creeping like a spavined snail, to be sure, for I was gromished from the fall and my right ankle gruppit—and was just about to call once more, when I heard sounds of a rare hochmagandy from inside the arbor.

I stood still, of course, thinking what was best to do. I could hear that it was Laoghaire shedding her shanks, but I had no hint who her partner might be. My ankle was blown up like a bladder, so I could not walk much farther, and so I was obliged to stand about in the wet, listening to all this inhonesté.

I should have known, had she been courted by a man of the district, and I had heard nothing of her paying heed to any—though several have tried; she has Balriggan, after all, and lives like a laird on the money you pay her.

I was filled with outrage at the hearing, but somewhat more filled with amazement to discover the cause. That being a sense of fury on your behalf—irrational as such fury might be, in the circumstances. Still, having discovered such an emotion springing full-blown in my breast. I was reluctantly compelled to the realization that my feelings for you must not in fact have perished altogether.

September 18, 1771

I dream of Ian now and then. These dreams most often take the shape of daily life, and I see him here at Lallybroch, but now and again I dream of him in his life among the savages—if indeed he still lives (and I persuade myself that my heart would by some means know if he did not).

So I see that what it comes to in the end is only the same thing with which I began—that one word, “Brother.” You are my brother, as young Ian is my son, the both of you my flesh and my spirit and always shall be. If the loss of Ian haunts my dreams, the loss of you haunts my days, Jamie.

I have been writing letters all the morning, debating with myself whether to finish this one, or to put it into the fire instead. But now the accounts are done, I have written to everyone I can think of, and the clouds have gone away, so the sun shines through the window by my desk, and the shadows of Mother’s roses are falling over me.

I have thought to myself often and often that I heard my mother speak to me, through all these years. I do not need to hear her now, though, to ken well enough what she would say. And so I shall not put this in the fire.

You remember, do you, the day I broke the good cream-pitcher, flinging it at your head because you deviled me? I know you recall the occasion, for you once spoke to Claire of it. I hesitated to admit the crime, and you took the blame upon yourself, but Father kent the truth of it, and punished us both.

So now I am a grandmother ten times over, with my hair gone grey, and still I feel my cheeks go hot with shame and my wame shrink like a fist, thinking of Father bidding us kneel down side by side and bend over the bench to be whipped.

You yelped and grunted like a puppy when he tawsed you, and I could scarce breathe and did not dare to look at you. Then it was my turn, but I was so wrought with emotion that I think I barely felt the strokes. No doubt you are reading this and saying indignantly that it was only Father was softer with me because I was a lass. Well, maybe so, and maybe no; I will say Ian is gentle with his daughters.

But then Father said you would have another whipping, this one for lying—for the truth was the truth, after all. I would have got up and fled away then, but he bade me stay as I was, and he said to me, quiet, that while you would pay the price of my cowardice, he did not think it right for me to escape it altogether.

Do you know that you did not make a sound, the second time? I hope you did not feel the
strokes of the tawse on your backside, because I felt each one.

I swore that day that I should not ever be a coward again.

And I see that it is cowardice indeed, that I should go on blaming you for Young Ian. I have always kent what it is to love a man—be he husband or brother, lover or son. A dangerous business; that’s what it is.

Men go where they will, they do as they must; it is not a woman’s part to bid them stay, nor yet to reproach them for being what they are—or for not coming back.

I knew it when I sent Ian to France with a cross of birchwood and a lock of my hair made into a love knot, praying that he might come home to me, body and soul. I knew it when I gave you a rosary and saw you off to Leoch, hoping you would not forget Lallybroch or me. I knew it when Young Jamie swam to the seal’s island, when Michael took ship for Paris, and I should have known it, too, when wee Ian went with you.

But I have been blessed in my life; my men have always come back to me. Maimed, perhaps; a bit singed round the edges now and then; crippled, crumpled, tattered, and torn—but I have always got them back. I grew to expect that as my right, and I was wrong to do so.

I have seen so many widows since the Rising. I cannot say why I thought I should be exempt from their suffering, why I alone should lose none of my men, and only one of my babes, my wee girl-child. And since I had lost Caitlin, I treasured Ian, for I knew he was the last babe I should bear.

I thought him my babe still; I should have kent him for the man he was. And that being so, I know well enough that whether you might have stopped him or no, you would not—for you are one of the damnable creatures, too.

Now I have nearly reached the end of this sheet, and I think it profligate to begin another.

Mother loved you always, Jamie, and when she kent she was dying, she called for me, and bade me care for you. As though I could ever stop.

Your most Affectionate and Loving Sister,
Janet Flora Arabella Fraser Murray.


Jamie held the paper for a moment, then set it down, very gently. He sat with his head bent, propped on his hand so that I couldn’t see his face. His fingers were splayed through his hair, and kept moving,massaging his forehead as he slowly shook his head, back and forth. I could hear him breathing, with a slight catch in his breath now and then.

Finally he dropped his hand and looked up at me, blinking. His face was deeply flushed, there were tears in his eyes, and he wore the most remarkable expression, in which bewilderment, fury, and laughter were all mingled, laughter being only slightly uppermost.

“Oh, God,” he said. He sniffed, and wiped his eyes on the back of his hand. “Oh, Christ. How in hell does she do that?”

“Do what?” I pulled a clean handkerchief from my bodice and handed it to him.

“Make me feel as though I am eight years old,” he said ruefully. “And an idiot, to boot.”

He wiped his nose, then reached out a hand to touch the flattened roses, gently.


This one gets me every time.

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Right, so that's Jenny's fault then? Nope. That's outright BJR's fault. He was sent to provoke the highlanders, and that's what he did. Come to think of it, it was Duke of Sandringhams fault. He set BJR on that mission. So, what do we see here? A chain of events, and it's almost everyone's fault that landed them in the position they were in.

Exactly my point. It's not Claire's fault. It's not anyone's "fault." Jenny is just a meddler. She should have learned the truth - or at the very least, her borther's opinion on the matter - before meddling any further. Of course she's there as a catalyst to move the plot along; that doesn't mean I have to like or agree with her.

Thank you for posting the letter, but I don't really need to understand her further. I don't like her. I'm reading Book 5 now, so I'll read it when I get to it and see if I change my mind. But for now - nope. I couldn't stand any of her actions in Book 3 except saving Jamie's leg.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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Also, people should take in consideration that why Jenny sent for Laoghaire, and a good thing she did, too. Everyone thought Claire was dead, and suddenly Claire makes an appearance after years of her supposed death. What should Jenny make of it? As far as Jenny is concerned, Claire left them and lived a 20 years life with no difficulties while Jenny and her family and the Lallybroch tenants almost starved to death every year.

I'm not seeing that this was a good thing. How was bringing Laoghaire to Lallybroch good? It wasn't good for Jamie, the brother she loves. It was mean to Laoghaire, throwing it up in her face that the wife Jamie actually loved was back! Jenny is a strong woman, but she should have talked with Jamie before she acted. She needed to find out what he planned to do about Laoghaire, Claire, where he wanted to live, where Claire was for 20 years; Claire could have suffered, too, a woman alone with a child in the 18th century? I think Jamie did tell Jenny that Claire was with child when he "lost her."
Jenny acted for her own benefit, not Jamie's, Claire's or Laoghaire's. She should have waited and discussed the situation with Jamie. Besides, this was Jamie's life, not hers. HE had choices to make and HE should have been allowed to make them. Jenny attempted to force what SHE wanted on Jamie, Claire, and Laoghaire and it ended up not only nearly killing her brother, but almost causing him to lose the woman he loved more than life itself, again!

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redheid - 👍

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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Jenny acted for her own benefit

What benefit could she possibly achieve? Can I say? Her brother's welfare, or so she thinks. Now about free will.. In 18th century, people like to control the people very close to them. So, Jenny trying to make a choice for Jamie doesn't surprise me. She acted on her instinct.

I'm not seeing that this was a good thing.


I thank you for asking me this. Now, even if it wasn't for Jenny, somehow, someday, Claire would learn about Laogahaire. And what would she do? Who knows? Maybe RUN back to the stones.. Most probably. Because Jenny called on Laogahaire, Jamie got shot, and that resulted in Claire's return to Lallybroch, again.
So, it was a good thing.. No matter Jenny's actions. And her intentions are maybe selfish, but it is always in welfare of her brother, too. Intentions, not actions.

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Now, even if it wasn't for Jenny, somehow, someday, Claire would learn about Laogahaire. And what would she do? Who knows? Maybe RUN back to the stones.. Most probably.

I respectfully disagree again. I don't think Claire would have run for the stones had Jamie had the opportunity to explain the Laoghaire situation to her himself, on his own terms and in his own words. He eventually did, and Claire didn't run again, right? She could have tended his gunshot wound and left again, but she didn't.

It wasn't up to Jenny to meddle in Jamie's marriages, whether it was custom of the time to try to control your loved ones or not. Jamie didn't try to control her...

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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I respectfully disagree again. I don't think Claire would have run for the stones had Jamie had the opportunity to explain the Laoghaire situation to her himself, on his own terms and in his own words. He eventually did, and Claire didn't run again, right? She could have tended his gunshot wound and left again, but she didn't.

Well, we can't know for sure, can we?
It wasn't up to Jenny to meddle in Jamie's marriages, whether it was custom of the time to try to control your loved ones or not. Jamie didn't try to control her...

I urge you to read book #5 until you reach to the part where Jamie reads Jenny's letter or I posted it above. It helps you understand Jenny better and why is she like that as you mentioned above..

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What benefit could she possibly achieve?

Jenny wanted Jamie to stay at Lallybroch, or at least have a permanent tie to the area. That is what she hoped to achieve in having Laoghaire come to Lallybroch when she had a fit over Claire's return. Jenny hoped Claire would leave and Jamie would remain married to Laoghaire. That was her goal and it was not because she thought it best for Jamie. I don't see how that could possibly be in Jamie's interest as he mourned Claire for 20 years before her return. Jenny wanted Jamie tied to home and that is why she sent for Laoghaire. She was afraid Claire's return would mean Jamie would leave and she didn't want that to happen. It was not for Jamie's welfare that Jenny wanted him to stay, it was for her own. Jenny was fine with Jamie living in Edinburgh because he would return home from time to time. She wanted that to continue, for her own sake, not Jamie's.
I still don't see that Jenny having Laoghaire come and Claire learning of Jamie's marriage in a traumatic way as a good thing. Yes, Claire needed to know and Jamie should have told her before he brought her to Lallybroch. He should have told her soon after Claire returned to him. However, he didn't because he was afraid to lose Claire again. It was still HIS place to tell Claire, in his own way, not Jenny's. Jenny should not have forced the situation on Jamie, Claire, and Laoghaire. Not her story to tell, not her choice when to tell it, and not even her business. And it could very well have killed the brother she loved so much. Jenny's own plan was detrimental to the health and welfare of Jamie.

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I don't see how that could possibly be in Jamie's interest as he mourned Claire for 20 years before her return.

And was just starting to lead an eventful life in Edinburgh..
Jenny wanted Jamie to stay at Lallybroch, or at least have a permanent tie to the area.

Which is a good thing for Jamie, too. Lets go back what happened to Jamie and Claire whenever they left Lallybroch. The first time: Jamie got raped. The second time: Culloden happened. The third time: Young Ian got kidnapped. The fourth time (Brianna): Brianna got raped. The fifth time (Book 7): Jamie and Jenny were assumed dead.

So, keeping the first two events in her mind, she might've thought that her brother is better off living in Lallybroch or in close reach.

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I agree with all this redheid. ☝

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Could I just throw in the point that when Jenny sent for Laoghaire to come to Lallybroch for the showdown following Claire's return, Jenny was really mad at Jamie re Young Ian, and that may have skewed her judgement more than usual. Emotional people do not make rational decisions, generally speaking. She'd suffered a lot over Young Ian's disappearance and maybe a little bit of her wanted to see Jamie suffer when this situation came to a head. Some of you will probably say this this makes her a terrible person, but it sounds very human to me.

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[deleted]

By bringing Laoghaire to Lallybroch, and creating the need for the "divorce," and thus creating the need for Young Ian to get the treasure where he got kidnapped - arguably Jenny is the one who made Jamie leave again. Karma?


This comment makes the point that Diana is trying to drive forward her narrative and that Jenny's actions do exactly that. She is the character Diana employs to create a conflict, to trigger the journey to the seal island and the thus the only thing that will drag Jamie across the Atlantic Ocean.

Diana has to make this happen and this is how she chooses to do it. If she has to write Jenny in a way some people don't like, then that just how it has to work sometimes. If Jenny had been sweetness and light throughout, she'd have had another character do something similar and we'd have a long thread about how we don't like their selfish nature either.

It serves the narrative.

And so does Claire refusing to listen and learn from Jamie in the first two books, relating this back to the TV Claire vs Book Claire thread. Claire doing something impulsive/stupid/not thought out, is Diana's main way of driving her narrative forward in the first two novels, at least.

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All very good points, Newguise.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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Her reaction toward Jamie in that case was one of the most selfish reaction written in that serie. Jenny may be terrifying to lose her brother but she does sacrifice him in the end , first with the Laoghaire wedding fiasco and second by fetching her when Claire comes back. She never thought one second about Jamie , it was all about her. I also absolute cannot stand that Jamie had to sacrifice already his title , his place as an heir to protect his family , but it seems that it wasn't enough for Jenny. Nothing was written about any recognition from anybody for all the sacrifices that Jamie has done for his family . Jenny particularly has been taking from him over and over again , financially first but also emotionally. By marrying Jamie she made sure that Jamie would never leave , not that she wanted him to be happy . So her admission in the cellar is the minimum she could have done and doesn't erase all the wrong she has done. It makes her very unlikable by book 3.

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I don't actually recall the admission in the cellar? But maybe because by that point, I was tuning her out. She was awful.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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The conversation in the cellar was Jenny trying to explain to Claire why she had send for Laghoaire to come back to Lallybroch to face Claire and Jamie and the main reason for pushing her brother to remarry with his second wife. Her excuse for both was that she had never been farther than a few miles away from her land and that she was affraid of Jamie leaving again and leaving her all alone. Never mind that when she first planned this she was herself married with children and had a family of her own.
I think that this is also when she explains that she knew that the marriage was a huge mistake when Claire appeared as a ghost during the ceremony, but yet she is the one that send her daughter to fetch Laghoaire as fast as possible. This wasn't an apology , but rather a poor explanation.

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Ah, thanks. Yes, I remember that now, with the ghost at the wedding. Jenny knew it was a bad idea, yet still forced it anyway.

Ned Gowan was the only one who made any sense in the scenes after Laoghaire came back.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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It wasn't Claire's ghost it was her fetch. There's a difference.

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Not enough to matter. A fetch is an apparition of a living person; a ghost is an apparition of a dead person. And for all Jenny knew at the time of that wedding, Claire was dead, so it would have been a ghost.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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It doesn't make much difference , Jenny thought that Claire was dead .

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If she saw a fetch she'd know that Claire was still alive. Hence her knowing that Jamie was wrong in marrying Laoghaire and Jenny leaving the ceremony.

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Ok, when you put it that way , I can see why it makes a difference. Thank you for the explanation.

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But did Jenny know she saw a fetch? I don't recall.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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Yes.

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How can someone tell the difference?

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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Not sure, but Jenny does say she saw Claire's fetch not her ghost.

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See, I took that to mean that she only knew it was her fetch after she now knows that Claire was alive. I think she could have easily thought it was a ghost when she actually saw it. I guess we may never know - several interpretations here, and any one of them could easily be correct.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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If Jenny thought it was Claire's ghost at the time she wouldn't have had reason to think she was doing the wrong thing and walk out on the wedding. A fetch would tell her Claire was still alive and Jamie shouldn't be marrying Laoghaire.

There was nothing to say that Jenny thought she had seen ghost at the time of the wedding and only later changed it to fetch when she saw Claire again in the flesh.

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[deleted]

I agree with you on this. 👆

(Though, let's face it, I can't stand her in book 3. She might love Jamie, but she sure doesn't care about what he actually wants for himself.)


I didn't like Jenny in Book 3 either or in Book 7 when she is so hostile to Claire for being unable to cure Ian.

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I think the core of the disagreements come down to the word "nasty". Are both women rude at times, yes. Abrasive, absolutely. To me, nasty is another level of intentional, deliberate, spiteful hurtfulness..if there is such a word. I think the ladies become thoughtless of their words/actions when they're "in a passion". Again, not an excuse, because if you're aware that your mouth can run away from your brain, you should try to grab hold before it escapes. However, if we remember Ian explaining to Claire about not getting between Frasers during "discussions" and Claire's penchant for speaking her mind (something that Uncle Lamb may have encouraged or Claire may have picked up to be heard in the male dominated world I which she grew up), maybe we get a little better understanding of why they do what they do...don't have to like it and it's not a pleasant personality trait, but it may serve in some instances. Perhaps they need to learn judicious use... Didn't mean to be so long winded. Opinion ended.

Sorry...one last thing...didn't like what Jenny did re Jamie/L'heery, however...she was afraid for his life, I think and acted much like she did when he came home from Culloden with the leg injury...drastic times/drastic measures. One worked and the other was an utter failure. Really done now.🙂

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Call it what you will, I don't really care - "rude and nasty" were just the words used in the original thread that I referenced. And there, I didn't agree that Claire was nasty. So I mostly agree with you.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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Then we agree to mostly agree...s'all good! 👌🏻👍🏻😉

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I think we usually do! 👍

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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she actually seems to be in a fairly vulnerable position, and that's her way of disguising it.

You make some excellent points in your post, Newguise. However, if I were Jenny and my brother, the owner of the estate, came home with a new wife, I would want her to like me. I'd be very nice to her and would never call her a trollop right off the bat. Why antagonize someone on purpose when that person could potentially have all the power over me and my family? I understand all that you said about why, and I think you're right, but Jenny's methods of dealing with things is pretty counter productive in this case. She just seems mean and shrewish to me. My first thoughts about her would not be, "Oh, she feels threatened!"
Claire couldn't really have turned out Jenny-Jamie would never have allowed that, and Claire knew it. Jenny's home was safe. However, Claire could have tried to treat Jenny the same way Jenny treated her. I don't think that would have worked out too well for either of them. Or for Jamie and Ian. Lol
Claire could have had some power, but in name only. She was an outsider, English, and didn't have a clue about how to be a housewife, let alone how to run an estate. The people living on the estate would never respond to Claire as "one of them" as they did to Jenny. Claire didn't necessarily know this when she arrived, but Jenny did. Claire's life could have been made miserable by the tenants and servants, and Jenny knew this, too.
Maybe Jenny's behavior was just giving Claire a taste of her own sharp tongue. I do think Jenny was worse, but you did give an excellent explanation of why. I just don't think Jenny's ways were great choices.
Jenny's default setting with Jamie is elder sibling, and therefore protector, and however silly that sounds in reality, that's the role she automatically adopts when these things come up.

This one rang true! I have an extended family member who instantly came to mind when I read this. A two year age difference isn't much in adulthood, but some don't seem to be able to get past it. Sometimes, though, you need to realize that you are both adults and get over your childhood roles.

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Hi Redheid,

I agree with everything you say about the reality of the situation regarding Jenny and Claire, and Claire's outsider status meaning that as 'Lady Lallybroch' she could never have the influence or role that Jenny did. You are absolutely right. But the truth is that people don't always make the best choices when emotions come into play. In fact, they usually don't. People aren't perfect, and I like these books because the characters ring true to me, so I can understanding them behaving imperfectly. It's what makes them more real.

Jenny's explanation in the cellar:

"He was lonely," she said softly. "So lonely. I couldna bear to see him so. He was wretched for so long, ye ken, mourning for you."

That comes in the chapter after Jamie himself explains the marriage to Claire:

"And when I came back-" He shrugged...It was different. Ian would ask me what I thought of fencing in auld Kirby's pasture, but I'd know he'd already set Young Jamie to do it. I'd walk through the fields and folk would squint at me, suspicious, thinking me a stranger. Then their eyes would go big as they'd seen a ghost, when they knew me."..."I was a ghost, I think"..."I was here," he said softly, "but not home."..."And I suppose I was lonely"

That's what Jenny saw, and she wanted him not to live the rest of his life like that. No, it didn't work, but when people feel desperate they'll try anything. Jamie admits that he listened to Jenny out of loneliness. The whole thing is very sad.




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Again, spot on.

Everyone's blaming Jenny for marrying Jamie off to Laoghaire, but they're forgetting that Jamie wouldn't do anything he didn't wish to. Even if it was Jenny who suggested Laoghaire, it was Jamie who married her willingly. And Jenny didn't know much about Laoghaire to foresee that this match was ill match. She saw a fetch of Claire during their wedding and it was too late by then.

Also, people should take in consideration that why Jenny sent for Laoghaire, and a good thing she did, too. Everyone thought Claire was dead, and suddenly Claire makes an appearance after years of her supposed death. What should Jenny make of it? As far as Jenny is concerned, Claire left them and lived a 20 years life with no difficulties while Jenny and her family and the Lallybroch tenants almost starved to death every year.

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Also, people should take in consideration that why Jenny sent for Laoghaire, and a good thing she did, too.


Yes, Claire and Laoghaire needed to know. But sending for her like that seemed a cruel way to do it for all concerned and, as I said before, it ended up with Jamie being shot. Really Jamie should have told Claire. He must have known she would find out after taking her back to Lallybroch.

Claire left them and lived a 20 years life with no difficulties while Jenny and her family and the Lallybroch tenants almost starved to death every year.


At least Claire did give her good advice on how to survive this horrendous time. But I suppose Jenny must wonder why, even if Claire thought Jamie was dead, she never visited the Murrays during those years.

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But I suppose Jenny must wonder why, even if Claire thought Jamie was dead, she never visited the Murrays during those years.

That and the knowledge that Claire lived happily somewhere in France while Jenny and the others suffered. She's not mad at Claire for leaving, she's mad at her for not being with them in those horrid times. Understandable.

Also, I don't think Jenny believed Claire was in France all this time; Ian didn't believe. She knows something is not right, and she acted on it.

Yes, Claire and Laoghaire needed to know. But sending for her like that seemed a cruel way to do it for all concerned and, as I said before, it ended up with Jamie being shot. Really Jamie should have told Claire. He must have known she would find out after taking her back to Lallybroch.

And what else Jenny could've done? She didn't know Laoghaire and Claire had bad blood between them. All she thought was that they'd somehow sort things out, which mostly ends with Claire leaving (she's already left them once and lived happily, she could do it again, is what Jenny thinks). She didn't expect it to go as horribly wrong as it did. I don't see anything cruel about it, but her selfish love for her brother.

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Jenny easily could have waited to call Laoghaire to the house. Sending for Laoghaire the day after Claire and Jamie arrive tells me she was in a panic, since she admits to Claire later that it was fear of Jamie leaving that caused her to send for Laoghaire in the first place.

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I agree. Considering all the shock she's gone through after Jamie and Claire's arrival, I can imagine her panic.

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Jenny easily could have waited to call Laoghaire to the house. Sending for Laoghaire the day after Claire and Jamie arrive tells me she was in a panic, since she admits to Claire later that it was fear of Jamie leaving that caused her to send for Laoghaire in the first place.


That a good point broughps. That Jenny was in a panic and that was what made her act so hastily.

ETA:
I still don't know how Jamie thought he could get away with returning to Lallybroch and Claire not finding out about Laoghaire. I realise he was scared of losing her, but he should have told her before they got there.

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I think he wanted to get her as far away from the stones as possible before he told her about Laoghaire. He didn't want her to have easy access of returning to her own time again.

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I think he just didn't know how to tell her. I'm also not sure it was necessarily on his mind the whole time - I think he was overwhelmed with her return, Young Ian, the fire, etc. that he mostly didn't think to do it.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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I see you point. I can see Jamie waiting for a proper time to tell Claire. However, if I were Claire, that would have been top priority on my list of questions to ask Jamie upon their reuniting....any personal "attachments"? Maybe that's just me, but I would want to know that from the get go.

Another questions regarding Jenny. Do you think Jenny would have reacted differently to Claire's return, and the whole Laoghaire fiasco (including the push for their marriage), if she knew Laoghaire tried to kill her? Jenny didn't know about it until Bree told the family.

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Do you think Jenny would have reacted differently to Claire's return, and the whole Laoghaire fiasco (including the push for their marriage), if she knew Laoghaire tried to kill her?

I'd sure hope so! But who really knows. Maybe not, because I think Jenny just thinks that Claire is gone anyway. Out of sight, out of mind, and who cares what happened to her while she was here.

As for asking Jamie - I think Claire did, or at least hinted at it in the days in Edinburgh after she returned? I vaguely recall Jamie said he wasn't attached...

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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As for asking Jamie - I think Claire did, or at least hinted at it in the days in Edinburgh after she returned? I vaguely recall Jamie said he wasn't attached...

Ahhh! Here it is..your right, FnkyChkn:
"Are you trying to tell me you don't want me to stay?" I said, finally. "Because if so...I mean, I know you'll have a life now...maybe you have...other ties"

Jamie only replies with:

"Christ!" he said. "Not want ye?"

But he never directly addresses the "other ties" issue, only:
"But I'm no the man ye knew, twenty years past, am I?"
"Sassanach, will ye take me--and risk the man that I am, for the sake of the man ye knew?"


He's shrewd, isn't he?😜

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He's shrewd, isn't he?

Ha! Very. I guess I interpreted him then asking her to take him back as him being free to do so. Probably the way Claire interpreted it?

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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I guess I interpreted him then asking her to take him back as him being free to do so. Probably the way Claire interpreted it?

It would seem so. His reply left it a gray area IMO. If it was me, I would've been direct and asked if he was married, or had been married (tactfully, of course). But by this time, Jamie was all ready to hop into the sack with Claire and he didn't want to jeopardize with that prospect. My bad!!😝

Cheers!

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He did have a startled reaction for a second like he thought she knew about Laoghaire. I don't think Claire really caught it though or at least didn't pursue it when Jamie answered.

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I don't think Claire really caught it though or at least didn't pursue it when Jamie answered.

No, she didn't. Later, she realized something was up when she returned to the room and felt the tension among Jamie, Ian, and Young Ian. But I don't think it ever occurred to her that Jamie was married to Laoghaire!
When I was reading the book I did keep wondering why they didn't discuss more of their respective pasts. I would have. Jamie did tell Claire that he didn't live like a monk. I'd have asked questions then. That monk comment would make me think he was sexually active. It would have been normal for him to have sexual partners over a 20 year period. What about STDs? Yet Claire briefly mentions Frank and then they don't talk about anything. But years later when the whole Malva thing happens and Jamie tells Claire about Mary, it's kind of a big deal. Did Claire really think Jamie had sex as seldom as he actually did during those years? Or only the two women she knew about? I thought it was odd. There was a great deal Jamie and Claire should have discussed, but didn't.

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Sometimes you just don't want to know.

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Jamie did tell Claire that he didn't live like a monk. I'd have asked questions then. That monk comment would make me think he was sexually active.

Sorry, but Jamie didn't say that.

Jamie:
"And have you lived a nun for twenty years?" he demanded, shaking me slightly. "Have ye?"

Claire replies:
"No!" I flung the word at his face, and he flinched slightly. "No, I bloody haven't! And I don't think you've been a monk, either--I never did!"

They both didn't expect each other to be celibate angels over the 20 years.

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Jamie did tell Claire that he didn't live like a monk. I'd have asked questions then. That monk comment would make me think he was sexually active.

Sorry, but Jamie didn't say that.

Yes, he did, earlier in the book than the part you quoted where not being a monk or nun was mentioned. It's in Chapter 27, Up in Flames, when Jamie and Claire are in bed talking about how happy they are to be together again. And then Jamie says:
“It’s no just the bedding, ye ken,” he said, drawing back a little at last. His eyes looked down at me, a soft deep blue like the warm tropic sea. 
“No,” I said, touching his cheek. “It isn’t.” 
“To have ye with me again—to talk wi’ you—to know I can say anything, not guard my words or hide my thoughts—God, Sassenach,” he said, “the Lord knows I am lust-crazed as a lad, and I canna keep my hands from you—or anything else—” he added, wryly, “but I would count that all well lost, had I no more than the pleasure of havin’ ye by me, and to tell ye all my heart.”
“It was lonely without you,” I whispered. “So lonely.” 
“And me,” he said. He looked down, long lashes hiding his eyes, and hesitated for a moment. “I willna say that I have lived a monk,” he said quietly. “When I had to—when I felt that I must or go mad—” I laid my fingers against his lips, to stop him. 
“Neither did I,” I said. “Frank—” His own hand pressed gently against my mouth. Both dumb, we looked at each other, and I could feel the smile growing behind my hand, and my own under his, to match it. I took my hand away. 
“It doesna signify,” he said. He took his hand off my mouth.
 “No,” I said. “It doesn’t matter.” I traced the line of his lips with my finger. 
“So tell me all your heart,” I said. “If there’s time.”

I would definitely have talked about Jamie's comment about not living as a monk, when he "had to or go mad." That would mean to me that he was with a woman more than twice in 17 years, plus when he married Laoghaire. That wasn't Jamie "going mad" very much. And neither of the first two were because Jamie wanted to do it. Claire should have asked questions, if only to protect herself. She was a doctor, after all!

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Ahhh! Thanks! Forgot that one. Keep me honest, Redheid.

That would mean to me that he was with a woman more than twice in 17 years, plus when he married Laoghaire. That wasn't Jamie "going mad" very much. And neither of the first two were because Jamie wanted to do it. Claire should have asked questions, if only to protect herself. She was a doctor, after all!

I agree with you...I believe he had quite a few sexual encounters during those years. It would only stand to reason...sex hormones are powerful, especially in a male...withholding can lead to testicular pain (hence, possibly leading to Jamie's "going mad" statement). There has to be a release. Now, when you mentioned "the first two", I would assume you're referring to Mary and Geneva. He tried to refuse Mary's offer and he certainly didn't like Geneva's blackmail offer. He didn't want to, per se, but I'll put it this way....If it was put under his nose on a silver platter, his body is not going to refuse it (only way I can explain it).
Testosterone - 2
Brain - 0

I'm not going to say he probably visited brothels, but it wouldn't surprise me if he did. I think he would have had enough sense as to scrutinize the more reputable and "clean" houses. He seemed not to have any qualms about little Ian being serviced at the brothel where he had a room. And with the "pox" (syphilis) that ran rampant in brothels, yes, Claire should have asked questions.

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He tried to refuse Mary's offer and he certainly didn't like Geneva's blackmail offer. He didn't want to, per se, but I'll put it this way....If it was put under his nose on a silver platter, his body is not going to refuse it (only way I can explain it).
Testosterone - 2
Brain - 0

Haa!! No matter how they got in bed with someone, it's obvious for a male, who's deprived of sex for so long as Jamie, to participate in the act. Testosterone.
I'm not going to say he probably visited brothels, but it wouldn't surprise me if he did.

Well, Claire did ask Jamie if he participated sex with anyone from the brothel, and Jamie said he didn't. So, Claire did ask Jamie about his brothel activities..

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At the point of Crisis and Annihilation, Survival is Victory- Dunkirk

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Diana Gabaldon Was asked about Jamie's experience with women and she has explicitly said, that Jamie had sex only with 4 women in his life. Claire, Mary McNabb, Geneva and Laoghaire.


I always took his comment to Claire about "not living a Monk", that he masturbated. Remember it was considered a sin back then.

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I always took his comment to Claire about "not living a Monk", that he masturbated. Remember it was considered a sin back then.

Well, monks don't masturbate. Sin or no for a common man, it is considered as a sin for monks, even today.. But he didn't say anything about "not living a monk".
Diana Gabaldon Was asked about Jamie's experience with women and she has explicitly said, that Jamie had sex only with 4 women in his life. Claire, Mary McNabb, Geneva and Laoghaire.

Well, that clears the air.

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At the point of Crisis and Annihilation, Survival is Victory- Dunkirk

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But he didn't say anything about "not living a monk".


He did? In the scene that was quoted above?

He looked down, long lashes hiding his eyes, and hesitated for a moment. “I willna say that I have lived a monk,” he said quietly. “When I had to—when I felt that I must or go mad—” I laid my fingers against his lips, to stop him.

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He did.. I didn't look at that quote. Thanks.

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At the point of Crisis and Annihilation, Survival is Victory- Dunkirk

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Well, monks don't masturbate


This made my day!





Finch: "In all the time I’ve known him he’s never let me down.”
"Goodbye, Harold."

****

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Andorra,

Diana Gabaldon Was asked about Jamie's experience with women and she has explicitly said, that Jamie had sex only with 4 women in his life. Claire, Mary McNabb, Geneva and Laoghaire.

Well, hell....that just blew my theory out of the water. If he didn't not masterbate, I guess he was Superman and able to cope with numerous attacks of SRS (sperm retention syndrome). Jamie being Catholic, if masterbation was/is a sin, there's always confession and absolution.😁....Goodnight!

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Andorra,

I always took his comment to Claire about "not living a Monk", that he masturbated. Remember it was considered a sin back then.

Just found it....he DID perform the big "M" (at Ardsmuir, at least). He reveals it to Claire when aboard the Artemis (Chapter 44 - Forces of Nature). I'll just type in bits that pretty much sums it up.
"There's nay privacy in prison."
"Well, ye wait for the light to go, for the only modesty there is, is darkness."
"I was in irons for more than a year, Sassenach."......."And I couldna move my hands at all without the chain makin' a sound."
Torn between shame and need, he would wait in the dark, breathing in the stale and brutish scent of the surrounding men, listening to the murmurous breath of his companions, until the stealthy sounds nearby told him that the telltale clinking of irons would be ignored.

Sin or no sin, I guess desperate times called for desperate measures.

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Yes, I know he did. There is another incident at the beginning of "The Scottish Prisoner".

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Yes, Yes, Yes. In the opening paragraphs of chapter 1, at Helwater. I just finished that book, and dang, I didn't remember it. Alzheimers???

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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but Jamie was hiding in a cave for 7 years, imprisoned for about 5 (?) more, then an indentured servant at Helwater for at least 6. He went back to Lallybroch for little while before marrying Laoghaire, then left her within a year and went to Edinburgh. When would he have been free to visit a brothel? Certainly not for the first 12(ish) when he was hiding or imprisoned, I doubt he was free to come and go like that at Helwater.

I know I'm late to the conversation and the quote from DG below clears it up, but I just wanted to throw this out there for people to think about. He may not have lived entirely like a monk, but close to it.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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He was in Ardsmuir for about 3 years. Jamie never visited a brothel to indulge with the ladies. Just to do business with the Madame concerning printing and/or the sale of various alcoholic beverages. He did pretty much live a life of sexual deprivation. Even marriage to Laoghaire didn't offer much in that respect.

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Even marriage to Laoghaire didn't offer much in that respect

Jamie had sex with Laoghaire, didn't he? Diana said as much.

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At the point of Crisis and Annihilation, Survival is Victory- Dunkirk

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Yes, but not much. To paraphrase, he couldn't make her happy, so she turned him away. Something like that.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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redheid - I knew I wasn't sure on the exact number, but it was still years. Thanks for clarifying. I guess I always assumed that if Jamie had any other interactions with women, DG would have written about them. Even without her confirming, I always thought it was just 4 too. (And I think Claire will be 4 as well? But not sure, that's in future books.)

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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And I think Claire will be 4 as well?

Frank, Jamie, LJG, and King Louis.. Don't know if she had sex with others before marrying Frank..

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At the point of Crisis and Annihilation, Survival is Victory- Dunkirk

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Just want to say that I liked BookJenny much better after she arrived in America and fixed her relationship with Claire and they became friends again.

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Yes Claire had sex before Frank.

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Huh? Curious. Is this in the books?
Must be something I skipped over. Please elaborate. I thought Frank was first.

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Yes in the books, I can't remember which one, but Jamie mentions Frank being Claire's first and she intimated that he wasn't.

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Ahhh! Thanks! Forgot that one.

And I hadn't remembered yours! It bothered me so much that I looked until I found the part I meant. I thought I knew Jamie had said the monk remark and that Claire had started to say, "Frank-" but Jamie stopped her. So relieved when I knew my memory wasn't playing tricks on me.
I agree with you...I believe he had quite a few sexual encounters during those years.

I knew Jamie hadn't had much of a history with women while Claire was gone. Not terribly realistic, but Jamie is a one woman guy, even when the woman isn't born yet, apparently. DG has confirmed that Jamie has only had 4 partners in his life, so no brothels. It was a long 20 years for him.

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Your right, only 4 women and no brothels. But as Andorra and I have been discussing above, he did go to Plan B.

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I don't pick up that he had a "startled" reaction. It only reads "He turned from the window to stare at me" before saying "Christ!" he said. "Not want ye?"

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Too lazy to look it up but there's a bit in there when Claire mentions other relationships that Jamie gives a start or slight jerk at what she says. It didn't mean anything to me the first time I read it but after finding out about Laoghaire later, on subsequent readings I caught that small reaction on Jamie's part.

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I'm in the middle of the Voyager re-read and I'll try to find your reference.
Thanks!

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I unlazied myself and am looking for it too.

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Ah found it.

“I—canna even say what I felt when I touched you today, Sassenach,
and knew ye to be real,” he said. His eyes traveled over me, and I felt the
heat of him, yearning, and my own heat, melting toward him. “To find you
again—and then to lose ye…” He stopped, throat working as he
swallowed.

I touched his face, tracing the fine, clean line of cheekbone and jaw.

“You won’t lose me,” I said. “Not ever again.” I smiled, smoothing back
the thick ruff of ruddy hair behind his ear. “Not even if I find out you’ve
been committing bigamy and public drunkenness.”

He jerked sharply at that, and I dropped my hand, startled.

“What is it?”

“Well—” he said, and stopped. He pursed his lips and glanced at me
quickly. “It’s just—”

“Just what? Is there something else you haven’t told me?”

“Well, printing seditious pamphlets isna all that profitable,” he said, in
explanation.

“I don’t suppose so,” I said, my heart starting to speed up again at the
prospect of further revelations. “What else have you been doing?”

“Well, it’s just that I do a wee bit of smuggling,” he said apologetically.

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Just found it, too. You beat me to the punch by about 40 seconds. Dang!☺

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[deleted]

I think he just didn't know how to tell her. I'm also not sure it was necessarily on his mind the whole time - I think he was overwhelmed with her return, Young Ian, the fire, etc. that he mostly didn't think to do it.


Yes, it was a complete shock for him when she appeared, but he had opportunities to tell her later.

There are so many times that they just don't discuss things though. Like why did Claire never tell Jamie it was Laoghaire behind her getting arrested as a witch.

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There are so many times that they just don't discuss things though. Like why did Claire never tell Jamie it was Laoghaire behind her getting arrested as a witch.


Agreed, it makes no sense at all. Not only didn't she tell him after the fact, but especially when she came back to him after running for the stones upon finding out about Laoghaire? And after she told him she didn't care if he was bigamous.. What was he supposed to think was so bad about marrying Laoghaire that it made her break her promise and run.

I'm glad this issue is cleared up for the show. At least Show-Jamie will be able to understand why Claire feels so betrayed.

GRR...ARGH!

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I'm glad this issue is cleared up for the show. At least Show-Jamie will be able to understand why Claire feels so betrayed.

I agree. Even if they tried to "fix" it in other ways that I didn't like, it did make sense that Claire told him.

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"How do you know this?"
"That's what I do... I drink, and I know things."

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He will which will make it nuts that he marries Laoghaire in the first place.

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I'll judge how much sense it makes to me after I see how they play Jamie and Laoghaire reconnecting in the show.

At this point nothing will make less sense than the huge gaping hole of Jamie and Claire just not talking about it in the book.

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He will which will make it nuts that he marries Laoghaire in the first place.

I think they have to do more "redemption" of Laoghaire to make it remotely believable that Jamie would even consider marriage to her. But that last scene with Jamie and Laoghaire together, when he thanks her but doesn't know why...I think that RDM and company think she has been redeemed. Her unheard comment just shows that she isn't, but neither Jamie nor Claire is aware of that. Maybe she will be really nice to Jamie and makes him a little happy at first. She seems to be a changed person, but it doesn't last. Something like that. Really curious as to how they will do it.
Still hoping that Mary isn't switched to Laoghaire. I think Mary will be omitted since she was never part of the first two seasons. But doing the switch would certainly be a surprise for book readers, and explain why Jamie marries her later.

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Can you imagine how THAT would go down with the book fans? It doesn't bear thinking about.

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I don't think that would even go down with the show fans.

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I'd just be afraid that if L'heery takes Mary's place, it could be used as the excuse for him to marry her...a paternity question. He's presented with one of L'heery's children being his..and I wouldn't put it past her....and that crash you'd hear would be a heavy object meeting my tv!

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I'd have to figure out a way to jump through my laptop and throttle RDM and company if they did that.

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In fairness: I think Diana would throttle RDM before you.  I can't imagine her accepting that without yelling her rage all over the internet. She's not shy showing her displeasure if something doesn't go her way in the show and THAT certainly would be a biggy!

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I wasn't thinking paternity, just Jamie taking responsibility because he had sex with her before he left for prison. The books says that Jamie would never deceive another man in his marriage so Laoghaire can't be married at the time of the cave sex. She is, in the books, but timing can be changed. Her girls could be older and that would make it less objectionable for a 15 year old to marry a 30 year old later.

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I understand your point of view, but disagree with one thing...Jamie wouldn't do something he didn't want to do. I don't think he wanted to do it, I think he just didn't care one way or the other at the time. Remember Jenny, Ian, even young Ian, comment how changed Jamie is when he returns home...he was a stranger to his family, being gone for so long...had no connection to the land or tenants. Jenny was trying to save his life by giving him something to care about. Jenny was afraid he would go off to be a mercenary and get himself killed...L'heery was familiar to him and she had children...Jenny was appealing to Jamie's nature to help and protect and it worked. She wasn't Claire, though...he succeeded with the protecting and caring for the children, but not L'heery.

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I don't think he wanted to do it

I don't think he didn't want to do it either.. But I get your point.👍

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At the point of Crisis and Annihilation, Survival is Victory- Dunkirk

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Everyone's blaming Jenny for marrying Jamie off to Laoghaire

I don't blame Jenny for Jamie's marriage to Laoghaire. Even Jamie says it wasn't just Jenny "forcing" him to marry her. I blame Jenny for sending her daughter to fetch Laoghaire when Jamie and Claire went to Lallybroch.

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