Plot hole? - Rogue One (2016) Discussion

[–] PiggybackBandit 7 years ago

Was she supposed to say "Yep, you got me. Here are the plans back?"

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[–] Jedan_Archer 7 years ago

That's not the point Piggy. Vader mentioned several times (to the strangled officer and Leia) that the traced the beamed transmissions to her ship, but in RO he saw the rebels physically ship the plans away from him. Is Vader senile, stupid or just full of $hit.

Does not diminish the film, but it speaks volumes again about the intelligence of the fanboys unable to grasp, and trying to deny, this logical inconsistency (plot hole)...😉

de gustibus non est disputandum

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[–] Sunny_Nelson 7 years ago

Vader mentioned several times (to the strangled officer and Leia) that the traced the beamed transmissions to her ship...

No he didn't.

He said he had traced the Rebel spies to her.
He also said to her that several transmissions were beamed to her ship.

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[–] Jedan_Archer 7 years ago

Bear with me, since you put on this albino monkey avatar my blind trust in your expertise seem to have waned, Sunny (🙈🙉🙊 )

My copy of the ANH script states:

Vader to Officer : Where are those transmissions you intercepted?

Vader to Leia: Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you.

So, why would Vader say that even though he personally saw that the plans were physically handed over into Leia's ship, while they just barely escaped his slashing grasp by the skin of their teeth?

It's a textbook logical inconsistency aka plot hole, if you do not like that label we can still call it a continuity error, anyways you need to come up with explanations not set out in the films to explain it - as many apologists do with a - revealing! - variety and diversity of explanations and speculations.😉
de gustibus non est disputandum

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[–] Hazekiah 7 years ago

You're ASSUMING that Vader saw the plans being handed off.

We don't KNOW that he did.

In fact, the fact that he didn't just Force-grab them like he did the Rebel's blasters suggests that he DIDN'T see the plans handed off. It's easily plausible he was simply boarding the Tantive IV to find the plans and had no idea they were RIGHT there in the airlock.

You're trying so hard to shout PLOT HOLE! that you're overlooking the obvious, simplest explanation.

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[–] Jedan_Archer 7 years ago

Nope Hazekiah, you are engaging in what is called an argumentum ad absurdum in an attempt to fansplain things away, but you make it worse:

- Even IF Vader had not known the plans were handed off, why would he then claim vis-a-vis Leia/officer that they traced transmissions of the plans to Leia's ship? We know the plan were brought on board physically, which is smart because not traceable.
- Why did he hunt and kill these poor rebel bastards, seems futile, should he not rather focus on hunting the plans? Is Vader stupid?
- If Vader does not know, why would Vader and his destroyer hunt down just this particular starship (one of many of this kind engaged in the battle)?
- Even if we speculated that the plans were also additionally transmitted, what was the point of the physical hand off and the sacrifice of the rebels then...? (pointless, superfluous scene?)

Also, you do interpret the mayhem scene absurdly:

- We know Vader hacked and slashed his way through lowly rebels (what he usually does not do!) because one of them had the McGuffin and Vader knew about it (their save-the-plans reaction was not too subtle). Even if he could not actually see the plans - he knew they had them. The suspense of the entire scene is built on Vader hunting behind the plans!
- Further, you project a detail into the facts (Vader did not know) not indicated in the dialog and context of the film rendering an important scene pointless, which damages the film and is a deadly sin in logical debate - and a telltale sign of a plot hole.

QED. You are beaten, don't let it cost you your life as so many fanboys did.
de gustibus non est disputandum

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[–] Hazekiah 7 years ago

The Tantive IV was docked within Raddus' ship...tracing the transmissions to one was effectively the same as tracing the transmissions to the other. And Vader seeming to think in Ep. IV that the plans were sent via transmissions to the Tantive IV only furthers the notion that he was unaware of the hand-off happening as he was attempting to board it.

Vader wasn't "hunting" the rebels at the end of R1. He was attempting to board the ship and find the plans and the rebels were in his way.

It's unclear if he boarded Raddus' ship because they'd already traced the transmission to it, but either way it was the flagship of the assault and the largest, most important vessel still on site. Of course he'd choose THAT one to board.

The Tantive IV is very specifically known as a "blockade runner" ship. Raddus' ship received the transmission while the Tantive IV waited to haul ass and make a break for it as soon as they were aboard.

Whether or not Vader knew they had the plans in hand in that same airlock in no way negates the tension of the scene or his purpose in slashing through the rebels to board the ship. Theoretically, he knew the plans were somewhere on Raddus' ship and the Tantive IV was trying to escape it, so boarding and stopping it from escaping with the plans was still his goal regardless of the plans being handed-off to it just then or them already being somewhere deep inside.

Still not a plot hole.

:)

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[–] Jan_El_Senor 7 years ago

I don't think you know what a plot hole is....

Perpetual outrage is the most popular religion today.

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[–] Turricanmachine 7 years ago

The end scene only proved screenwriters were too lazy or too stupid to rewatch New Hope and see what Vader actually says. Ór they could have cut the end scene out before Vader sees the rebel ship fleeing.

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[–] Jan_El_Senor 7 years ago

I don't think you know what proof is....

Perpetual outrage is the most popular religion today.

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[–] millsey72 (9756) a year ago

Nobody on these boards knows what a plot hole is

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[–] ahsnedden 7 years ago

Sadly, you're not alone in this thinking. But you're not looking at the bigger picture

Not only Lea is a terrible and desperate liar but why couldn't Vader just say "I saw your ship take off from the flagship."
No need even mention transmissions...Not to mentioned dialogy between rebel captain and Vader

Now, look at it this way.

How did Vader know Leia was on the ship?? He didn't know. All he knew was A ship had taken off with the plans.

Also he delivers a line in ANH after capturing the Tantive IV.

He says, when referring to the Tantive IV, "Send a distress signal, then inform the senate that all aboard were killed"

This proves Vader knows there's still a political game to play. So Vader was never going to go running into the ship swinging his light saber at everyone. He'd captured and detained a ship that was pretending to be a diplomatic vessel. So he had to play the game

During the battle of Scariff, he was in a literal war zone. So he did whatever he could to salvage the plans before the rebels escaped.

You're just looking at it too simplistically.

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[–] Turricanmachine 7 years ago

You're right. Vader didn't know Lea was on that ship. And didn't know it at the opening scene in New Hope.
But it seems very out of place Vader saying to Lea "several beams were intercepted to this ship by rebel spies." why not " I just saw your ship take off from the rebel flagship."
Isn't also a danger if Alderaan soldiers dress exactly like rebel soldiers in Tantive IV?
It's like a Swiss diplomat flees from Nazi Germany by train but the train is full of British soldiers when Germans invade it..

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[–] ErgonomicSpliff 7 years ago

But it seems very out of place Vader saying to Lea "several beams were intercepted to this ship by rebel spies."

"Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you." - Darth Vader

It is not out of place at all for Vader to have said that. That's exactly what happened in R1. Rebel spies beamed the plans to the vessel to which the Tantive IV was docked. Vader assumed that the craft probably also intercepted the transmission from Scarif. While Vader's assumption is ultimately incorrect, and the plans were burned to a disk which was physically handed to Leia, that doesn't make what Vader said wrong. It also gave Leia plausible deniability. She didn't know Vader witnessed her craft exiting Raddus's flagship.

Isn't also a danger if Alderaan soldiers dress exactly like rebel soldiers in Tantive IV?

What does this sentence even mean? Alderaan has no weapons, no army as such. The soldiers aboard Tantive IV are Rebel Marines.

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[–] Sunny_Nelson 7 years ago

This!

And this also goes back to what I've been saying about people thinking the characters in the movie see everything that happens in the movie. It's stupid.

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[–] Jeorj Euler 7 years ago

If I had a nickel for every thread with a subject heading containing the term "plot hole", ...


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[–] Jan_El_Senor 7 years ago

You'd be rich.

However, if you had a nickel for every thread where the term "plot hole" was used correctly, you'd have about 15¢....

Perpetual outrage is the most popular religion today.

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[–] Jeorj Euler 7 years ago

I like how there's a question mark, as if there's ambiguity about a given thing being a hole.

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[–] millsey72 (9756) 2 years ago

I'd have the most nickels in the world

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[–] FootOfDavros (7272) 2 years ago

Hey, I tee'd you right up for a plot hole discussion here:-
https://moviechat.org/tt0039420/The-Ghost-and-Mrs-Muir/5eb1f7254b347714af995a84/Passage-of-time

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[–] millsey72 (9756) 2 years ago

I never saw that movie so its unfair for me to call it a plot hole

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[–] FootOfDavros (7272) 2 years ago

No need to watch the full film, here's the scene in question:-
https://youtu.be/gGFmPIa162A

Mr Sproggins is clearly lying through his teeth to the little girl or we have what is often referred to as a plot hole...

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[–] millsey72 (9756) 2 years ago

Its a 1:23 long scene, so I cannot distinguish what the issue is here

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[–] FootOfDavros (7272) 2 years ago

You don't even need to watch the entire, full 1:23 scene. You simply need to listen to the initial dialogue and look at the screen for the issue to become quite apparent.

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[–] millsey72 (9756) 2 years ago

It was labeled on both sides probably so the passing ships could see it

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[–] FootOfDavros (7272) 2 years ago

It wasn't "labelled" at all. Mr Scoggins had just finished carving it and Mrs Muir walks around to see it!

It's a 100% irrefutable plot hole - the very thing you've been dreaming of.

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[–] millsey72 (9756) 2 years ago

You found a plot hole. Good job. Go collect your nickel

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[–] robertstow 7 years ago

It made sense to me. In A New Hope, we know that the plans aren't in the ship's central computer, which they presumably would be if they'd been transmitted there directly, and we see Leia place the same date chip or whatever it is into R2 that we see passed to Leia at the end of Rogue One.

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[–] Turricanmachine 7 years ago

Let me repeat this tenth time. Vader saw the ship leave. And yet Vader says In New Hope "don't act surprised. Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they send you? You are part of rebel allience and a traitor. Take her away."
Lea being part of rebel allience is so obvious that any need to proof it telling hey we hijacked rebel transmission from this ship does not make any sense. Nor Leas' desperate lying about it.

If Vader indeed saw the ship flee from the flagship it's absotely impossible for Vader not to state the obvious. So the dialogy should have seen something like "I saw your ship take of from the rebel flagship. You are part of the rebel allience and a traitor. Take her away." So Vader would have mentioned it in the New Hope dialogy.
I'm 99 % certain that Lucas did not have in mind that Leas' ship escapes from the rebel flagship during battle and Vader sees it that let to New Hope when he made the movie in 1977...My guess is Tantive IV wasn't anywhere near the battle of Scarif(if that battle even existed back then) and Tantive IV was a diplomat ship..
So other words if you try to put together Rogue one ending and New Hope opening scene very hard to do...
It's like that moment between Episode III and VI "I was very young when my mother died. She was beautiful but sad." Yes Lea you were like minutes old after birth so yeah you were very young when your mother died...

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[–] robertstow 7 years ago

Say it as many times as you like, it still doesn't make the dialogue a plot hole. It still fits.

And I'm 100% certain Lucas didn't think that was what happened.

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[–] millsey72 (9756) 2 years ago

Thats not true. If he posts the same thing 15 times, then I have to consider it a plot hole due to repetition

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[–] Sunny_Nelson 7 years ago

You are correct, it does not fit your anal interpretation.

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[–] FieryMaid 7 years ago

Because people never make up reasons for detaining someone -- even today when they have real proof but want to play the delicate political balance game.

Because of course Leila couldn't have thought her adoptive mother WAS her real mother....

~ I keep my expectations low -- then I can be pleasantly surprised.~

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[–] Tristan_Jones 7 years ago

😂 lol, the fanboys are to pathetic: the angrier they are spinning in their echo chambers like EmoRen on hissy-fit steroids, the more it proves you (and all these who have made treads before) are right, dude.

I dig this movie a lot but this is one of the most obvious inconsistencies, nothing of TFA caliber but still unnecessary... Bet we will get an "apology" on the BR audio commentary...



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[–] ahsnedden 7 years ago

In A New Hope, we know that the plans aren't in the ship's central computer, which they presumably would be if they'd been transmitted there directly, and we see Leia place the same date chip or whatever it is into R2 that we see passed to Leia at the end of Rogue One.

THANK YOU!

Now we just need everyone who sees this "plot hole" to read that quote. It's summed up perfectly.

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[–] Jedan_Archer 7 years ago

Wrong: interpretation against the explicit dialog, damaging the characters.

Vader to Rebel Officer : Where are those transmissions you intercepted?

Vader to Leia: Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you.

So you are saying Vader is full of $hit and just making stuff up randomly? That's an argumentum ad absurdum (makes you lose in court and debate clubs).

Also you engage in pure speculations, why should the plans be in the central computer? Have you studied SW sciences - you know they are not talking e-mails here: beamed transmissions, like with radio waves. And even if they were in the computer, would the sensible thing for the rebels not be to destroy all digital recordings when attacked, and put it on some transportable, hidden device...? Ooops that is what they did!

Try again😉
de gustibus non est disputandum

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[–] SloppyJ30 7 years ago

Uh-oh. Now you've done it. I asked basically the same question a few weeks back, and you should've read the squealing. Seriously, you'd think some of these man-children got paid by the tear.

-------------------------

I have meddled with the primal forces of nature and I will atone.

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[–] Hazekiah 7 years ago

You need to watch the end battle again.

There are several ships identical to the Tantive IV in the Battle of Scarif, Leia had plausible deniability on her side.

Not a plot hole.

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[–] Sunny_Nelson 7 years ago

^This.

Also, people need to quit pretending that Vader is sitting in the audience watching the movie with us. He doesn't know that it's Princess Leia's ship. He just sees a ship. Sometime in the short time between R1 and ANH, he traces the ship, realizes it's hers, and goes after her.

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[–] Jedan_Archer 7 years ago

He just sees a ship. Sometime in the short time between R1 and ANH, he traces the ship, realizes it's hers, and goes after her.

Sorry to pee ob your fanboy parade, Sunny. But wrong on all counts, and against the explicit dialog:

Vader to Rebel Officer : Where are those transmissions you intercepted?

Vader to Leia: Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you.

Hokey deflections and fanboy denials are no match for a argument based on facts at your side. Sunny. A plot hole is a plot hole is a (inter-movie) plot hole....and RO is still a great SW film.
de gustibus non est disputandum

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[–] jrsjr81 7 years ago

Turricanmachine, Vader didn't actually see Princess Leia on that ship so there's no issue whatsoever.

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[–] hhh_dx33 7 years ago

Don't know which side to be on here but I feel the need to add something..

Vader 100% saw the rebel hand the disc to the next rebel officer. as he killed the 2nd to last officer in the way he starts walking towards the guy who then tells the guy here take it and as soon as the guy grabs it Vaders light saber goes through the guy and through the door. Vader is not deaf, he heard and was walking towards the guy as this exact thing happened.

However, it's not a plot hole either. It's a simple mistake that was overlooked and really has no bearing on either movie. Who the hell really cares if Vader at the beginning of ANH states what he did say or something to the effect of " I saw your ship leave the battle I know you have them."

Who the hell cares? Is it that big of a deal? If so wow just wow. I'm sure there is something more significant to point out to complain about then something as small as this.

"If someone asks if you're a God you say YES!"

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