If GOD exists, then explain these.... - 90 Minutes in Heaven (2015) Discussion

[–] straw_hat_boy_luffy 9 years ago

Maybe we are the ones who should be explaining those things to God. After all, humans did those things, not God. I find it funny that the same people who think God needs to get with the times and not have any rules are the first to blame him when people make violent choices that go against those rules.

So how about we stop trying to pass the buck to God for something that humans did in rebellion against him?

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[–] ChknSoupForDaFanboysSoul 9 years ago

What people think there should be no rules?

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[–] edoman2000 9 years ago

Maybe we are the ones who should be explaining those things to God. After all, humans did those things, not God.

Ok, so that means god doesn't know? Why would "We"need to explain something to the all knowing, omnipotent being in charge of the universe? Then again, who asks who when a natural disaster kills hundreds or thousands of people?... I'll wait for your or anyone elses answer....really.

I find it funny that the same people who think God needs to get with the times and not have any rules are the first to blame him when people make violent choices that go against those rules.

Ok, so what are those rules again? PLease do explain..... Cuase I'm here trying to understand what exactly should've that 2 year old child do in order not to get raped and killed? What "rule" did she or those Sandy Hook kids did not follow that led to their death?

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[–] chamohlamb 9 years ago

Ugh man. As a non-believer, you embarrass me greatly..

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[–] sanfordrm 9 years ago

Are you seriously saying the God is directly responsible for those tragic events? I really doubt God came down and personally committed those crimes. You are a fool for writing as much.

Humans are responsible for their own actions. You cant blame God for what somebody else does. The simple fact that evil is present is proof that good exists as well. A "good" God is always there to counterbalance "evil" actions.

Your logic is really poor.

"Please do explain....I am so eager to be illuminated."

No, you are eager to be condescending and confrontational, all while being irrational and ignorant.

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[–] Nataevberry 9 years ago

You're not really in a position to call someone else a fool and question their logic when you believe in organized religion.

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[–] ChknSoupForDaFanboysSoul 9 years ago

Irrational is giving all credit to God for good, and only crediting man for evil. So much guilt in religion.

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[–] monstermaniac 9 years ago

Well, it depends on what you believe about God. Does he have a divine plan? Does that plan encompass all that has and all that ever will happen? Did he set that plan into motion? If so, then one would think that all events we consider evil in this world are in fact, the will of God. Or if you want to suggest it's Satan's fault, does God's plan encompass the actions of Satan as well? Or does he not know what Satan will do, or is just powerless to stop it? If he is unwilling to stop it he is evil, if he is unable to stop it, he is not all powerful, both of which make me question why I should call him God.

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[–] edoman2000 9 years ago

Humans are responsible for their own actions. You cant blame God for what somebody else does. The simple fact that evil is present is proof that good exists as well. A "good" God is always there to counterbalance "evil" actions.

Ok,first off, you're talking in behalf of the perpetrator, not the victim, cause how can you explain what was that 2 year old baby responsible for......???? Then lets discuss that further. If Humans are responsible for their own actions, then answer me this.....Why do people then pray to god when there's people getting murdered and butchered, even for religious beliefs, in places like Sirya or Iraq or even pray for the people getting murdered in our own streets in gang violence? Are those prayers for god to intervene? Cause as per your logic , there's no purpose for that since "humans are responsible for their own actions" and god is not responsible for that, right? Then why pray?

Besides, let me go another route then..... Where was god when the terrible tsunami of Indonesia hit? That was a natural disaster, not man made or caused by "human evil", yet thousands of innocent people died there, children included.

And you might ask why I am so obsessed with including kids in this, well I want to prove that what you guys believe, is a god that is OK with killing or at least letting be killed or die the utmost symbol of innocence in this planet..... Yes your "god of love"

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[–] creatorof2002 9 years ago

I am an atheist and god does not exist but I will PRETEND to be a theist for the sake of argument, like a comic book nerd talking about Superman or something.

Anyway, he put ALL of us here on this Earth and gave the ENTIRE WORLD free will. The world is like a gigantic board game or sports arena. His refusal to interfere with free will is much like the prime directive in Star Trek.

Collectively we the human race as a group are responsible for each other. As soon as god starts making exceptions even if it means preventing bad people from doing bad things he is violating the absoluteness of the free will of the human race.

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[–] Mr_Nyar 9 years ago

If God is all knowing there can't be free will really. God would be creating people knowing they will sin against him, knowing they mostly will end up in hell and make the world a mess. He could have twitched the first humans to a point of perfection in which they would not betray him but still not being like robots using his all knowing habilities... he is God after all. So yeah, I think everything is God's fault. He must be some kind of sadist who enjoys watching how a guy rapes a 2 YO. Remember another of his powers is being everywhere at all times.

I think there is a difference between a work of art and an Oscar. Roger Corman

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[–] edoman2000 9 years ago

As soon as god starts making exceptions even if it means preventing bad people from doing bad things he is violating the absoluteness of the free will of the human race.

And here is your exception.....

Exodus 4:21
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

So that tent-pole of religious belief called "free will" just went out the window there as in order to have his will done god intervened and MADE the pharaoh NOT listen to Moses in order for his plan to be accomplished.

..........Next!

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[–] RebBacchus 9 years ago

Pretty good Arminian theology for an atheist! Too many folks really want to believe that God is some sort of gigantic puppeteer who micromanages every event. I love "Sim City" and "Civilazation" but even those great games wouldn't be fun if I had to do everything! Not that God couldn't, but He doesn't and I'm so very glad, because I REALLY love my sins.

Knowing what someone will do is NOT control, ask any parent or long married spouse. I'm sure I know how my wife of 47 years is going respond, well at least some of the time, but that is NOT control! If you don't believe me ask her. Frankly I doubt you'd find any successful marriage where one spouse actually does control their significant other. Besides, it'd be a terribly boring life.

Reconciling "Acts of God" with a loving and just God is much harder. It would be too simplistic to say, "folks who build their houses in a river bed (as most American cities are) should expect a flood. But that's not always true or just.

It's clear from the Old Testament that God doesn't look upon human deaths the way we do. It's also clear from both the OT & NT that our lives here are an insignificant portion of our eternal one.

But? even without a ying/yang theology I believe that in order for our planet to be able to support humans and all the other life there has to be certain "natural events to make and keep a balance. I don't understand it, but just as the rail falls upon the righteous and unrighteous, bad stuff happens to good people. If you want to blame God for the tsunami, then you ought to credit Him for every beautiful sunset, spring flower, the perfect waves that surfers proclaim. In fact I believe you'd be so busy praising Him you wouldn't have time to gripe.

I don't have to understand God's ways and why they are so much better than mine, that is just part of my faith. (although I do confess that most of the time I'm sure MY PORTION of the world would be a better place if God would just follow my instructions. Of course I can't say how that would affect YOUR WORLD).

Currently I'm dying of a really nasty thing called IPF. As a way to die I think only slowly burning to death would be worse. Okay that's hyperbole but I hate the idea of slow suffocation. I can't blame it on smoking for 30 years or stoping 20 years ago or any other factors in lifestyle. I also don't blame God! For His reasons He didn't make us perfect or immortal and that's a good thing since Heaven IS real although I haven't seen the movie. I don't know why this thing is taking so long to kill me, and I'd be happier if it would stop the pain.

When God created the universe in 144 Earth hours, He said it was good, NOT perfect. He left that for heaven.

Now let's look at your concept of prayer. First, honest prayer alway is submissive to God's will. Jesus showed this in his garden prayer. Second, prayer connects us to God, which is ALWAYS a good thing. It doesn't always provide comfort, far from it all too many times I absolutely hate what God reveals to me in my prayers. Still, the connection is vital for my mental health and happiness. Third, while as Tony Compolo said, "God is not some sort of giant ear connected to the universe's biggest slot machine, and if we can say just the right words we'll set up the right vibrations to hit the grandest jackpot," loose quote. He doesn't ignore us or our condition. Tevye's (in "Fiddler on the Roof") question about being a rich man is just right and sometimes there is a miracle. It also needs to be noted that miracles are NOT for the person cured of _______, but for those who witness it. I think that miracles are more rare today because rather than being an aid to faith they tend to be a stumbling block. After all Lazarus died even after being raised from the dead. Still, they do happen and I believe I've seen a few.

It's important to remember that we are asking the Guy who made the universe in 144 hours for a favor and He makes it pretty clear that He can't be bribed. In fact, one has to have a pretty big ego to think God is so desperate to give you the universe's greatest gift, eternal life, in return for you doing not only what you're supposed to do, but what will give you the most joyful life on Earth possible. Now for MY SOUL ??

Finally, and I apologize for the length, you might consider that some mighty smart folks over the last 2000+ years have provided logical answers to about any questions you might think up.

May God bless you this fine Sunday morning and give you peace.

Reb Bacchus
(That really is my name)

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[–] edoman2000 9 years ago

Wow...That wall of text with neat words might work to convince your fellow worshipers into a false sense of understanding a flawed concept like the bible, but all I read there is that you dont have a clue why your god decides to spare some people but spare others.

Now,.... I never talked about CONTROL, what I talked about was that god ALLOWS things like that to happen with what purpose? Cause you will have to agree that god must have some sort of plan or purpose right? Even though this all knowing being, in hius master plan, created man to be in eden, only to have them sin, then purging them from eden only to live a life of pain and suffering and then only if they follow "his rules" (those of whatever religious text you go by, since there are so many different religions with different rules you might have to ask if you are really in the right religion, right?), he will bring them bakc to eden, right? Thats quite a plan there.

Now I am truly sorry you have that sickness that looks to be really bad, but that only confirms my point that people look into religion, in order to be at peace and have closure on what they don't understand (death in this case). It is indeed something dating back since the beginning of time when people did not know what microbes, germs and sickness were, what weather was, what planets and other celestial events would be. Human mind evolved to a point that it needed to have a purpose. it is the quintessential question on all developed beings that are "aware".

Now, I don't want to be cruel, but since you brought the whole sickness theme here, I ask you....Have you prayed god to cure you? How you feel knowing god gave you that nasty sickness, yet some multiple murderer and rapist of women and children will go on to live an unapologetic life, roaming free in some 3rd world country somewhere till the age of 90? Cause it will happen.... Is that balance? IS that OK? Is that what a omnipotent, omnipresent being of good considers fair for his creation that he so loves and wants to be happy thus creating Heaven for them?.

This reminds me of this.....Have you heard the story of Job? Basically god made a bet with satan to see if that righteous, god fearing man would still love god after satan had his way with him, killing his servants, his stock, even his FAMILY and even giving him a nasty sickness..... Only to prove a point to satan?????....Man that right there is a sick mentality if you ask me.

Theres only one answer there...there is no god and life just is. Man is a byproduct of life on this universe just like bacteria is a byproduct of bad hygiene. There is not a master creator looking after us, and if you really believe there is one, you have to agree ....That master creator is a sick puppy. Kid with a magnifying glass over an anthill comes to mind....

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[–] RebBacchus 9 years ago

edoman2000 replied 3h ago
Wow...but all I read there is that you dont have a clue why your god decides to spare some people but spare others.

I'm sorry about my wordiness, I'm often told I use sixty words of six syllables when eight simple words would do. "God allows us to suffer the consequences of others free will." OK so I took eleven words, sue me. Let me give you an example I hope might illustrate this point, at least it did for me. I have a very good friend who was a hitman for a large gang. He had been sentenced to death row but somehow got it changed to life. He said, "The reason all those people got hurt, wasn't because of God's will, it was because of my will."

<<<God has some sort of plan or purpose right? Even though this all knowing being, in hius master plan,>>>

Actually, I don't know that I have to believe that God has a plan every human on Earth. I do believe that he doesn't force anyone to follow His plan, heck, He doesn't even force folks to follow His rules. Even if the evidence is pretty clear that the world would be a better place if everyone did.

<<< you might have to ask if you are really in the right religion, right?) >>>

You're right! Everyone should check to make sure they're in the right religion. One needs to study and, at least in my case spend many hours in prayer, both speaking & listening.

<<< in order to be at peace and have closure on what they don't understand (death in this case). >>>

This is a great misunderstanding and some might call it insulting. Clearly some can be comforted by the knowledge that this life isn't "all there is," however throughout history man has been proclaiming that a life lived in communion with God is much better than one without. In fact I read a study just the other day that found religious people are happier than non-religious folks. I certainly know it was that way for me.

I need to add something else about this section, it comes close to something I encounter much too often. I don't mean this personally, but too many of the atheist I've visited with seem to think any/all believers are, simple minded, ignorant, stupid, and/or uneducated, especially about their own religion, or sometimes all of the above. It's a prejudice as groundless and insulting as racial prejudice.

<<<Now, I don't want to be cruel, but since you brought the whole sickness theme here, I ask you....Have you prayed god to cure you? >>>

No, I'm at peace with the the process, I do know that several folks are/were praying for me to get well but I think I got some to change when I pointed out that they were praying for me to get a "set off."

<<<How you feel knowing god gave you that nasty sickness, z? till the age of 90?>>>

Let try to make it clear again! I don't believe God is a puppeteer and I don't believe God gave me IPF, but the really shocking thing is that I also believe that if He did send it, He'd had a good reason and I'd hope I'd make the best of it. After all I've got a pretty good example to follow about accepting a bitter cup.

<<< Heaven for them?. >>>

There are probably as many different ideas about what Heaven is as there are people. But to address your question, everyone is going to die. Most don't choose the time or the method. I have the blessing of having a loving family that is supporting me know, and even better, I feel the presence of my best buddy here with me too as I deal with this. Frankly, I don't know how I could live as joyfully as I am if He wasn't giving me Grace.

FWIW, I don't have any problems talking about the @&$%##} disease that's killing me, so don't feel like you need to sensitive about it. Of course I wish I didn't have it, but life is still good, and I'm have fun.

<<This reminds me of this.....Have you heard the story of Job? Basically god made a bet with satan to see if that righteous, god fearing man would still love god after satan had his way with him, killing his servants, his stock, even his FAMILY and even giving him a nasty sickness..... Only to prove a point to satan?????....Man that right there is a sick mentality if you ask me.>>

The first time I read Job was in freshmen English, 101. Aside from a lifelong inability to discern the rules of grammar, making the class torturous, the class was at 7:50 AM!

I often used your example when I'm asked about the morality of gambling although I have to be careful because frequently those asking the question are addicted gamblers. I've always been more bothered by the end of the book where he gets twice as much as he had before including children. As a parent I never could see that a child lost could be replaced by a new one? especially a grown man who kids had finally grew up enough to be a help around the farm rather than with ones that requires 2:00 AM feeding and smelly diapers! An awful lot of scholars believe that the book is allegory. There's even some evidence that it was a well known story from other cultures that was adapted to make the point of the book.

Still, the point of the book is that we can't understand why God does what He does. A great example is in the book of Ruth. Her poor mother-in-law, Naomi, got the shaft in every way possible for a Jew. Ruth is basically Cinderella, but while there's supposed to be a sop at the end, by Jewish understanding at that time she lost the future because she didn't have children who would carry her lineage forward. She also, most likely, died before David was even born, she certainly never saw him become king, and it was centuries before Jesus was born of Ruth's line. Yet without all the crap (literally) she had to endure, the genes God wanted Jesus to have would have, wouldn't have existed. That's longer term thinking than most humans are capable.

>>>"Theres only one answer there...there is no god and life just is. Man is a byproduct of life on this universe just like bacteria is a byproduct of bad hygiene." >>>

Nice try to preclude all other options. I'm sure you're aware that these issues and many others have been raised for thousands of years, and very smart folks have given answers to each and every question, which have been accepted by equally smart students.

While I'm so NOT a scholar, my computer is, and I have copies of some of those answers, but this isn't the proper place to do it our posts are already much too long, and I'm just getting started.

There is not a master creator looking after us, and if you really believe there is one, you have to agree ....That master creator is a sick puppy. Kid with a magnifying glass over an anthill comes to mind....

I can give you concept of how God created everything in 144 hours, (which I never had any say was impossible) but I've yet to see anything else that doesn't call for more faith than I'm capable of providing. I used to believe that Seagan was right about how few conditions were needed for life to form, and thus given how many stars are out there the universe should be teaming with life. However, the best science keeps adding conditions and? different discussion

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[–] ChknSoupForDaFanboysSoul 9 years ago

This kind of reasoning seems to be a coping mechanism for uncertainty. Very wishy washy and random.

I think maybe what the OP is trying to get at is that some people attribute certain good outcomes to God having intervened. Like a terrible car accident that someone walks away from. A "miracle". Yet tens of thousands are fleeing from areas controlled by ISIS. How about working a miracle involving an ISIS cell all passing out so that they can be arrested without any harm coming to anyone? Because that would be a tough thing to explain. You might even get some atheists to say that they can't explain it. A bad car accident that a person walks away from? That's just good luck.

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[–] RebBacchus 9 years ago

My biggest problem with atheism is that it requires sooooooo much faith! Perhaps it's just the ones I been able to talk to, but while they (the ones I've visited with) tend to be condescending about my intelligence and knowledge, (not that I'm all that smart or well read, but I are a college graduate from a top 25 school) but they don't seem to know some of the basic non-religious arguments with their world view.
They also tend to think few Christians have studied the Bible and of the ones who have, some large percentage are hypocrites or preachers ignoring the text for profit.
Sorry I'm sure that doesn't apply here, but I've seen it way too many times.

But perhaps that's my ignorance.

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] PrincessMagical 9 years ago

Clearly you haven't read God's Word, The Holy Bible.

I belong to Jesus: my Lord, Savior, my eternity, my everything. I love you, Jesus!

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[–] Nataevberry 9 years ago

So because someone has a differing opinion from you it's only clearly because they haven't read a book that you like? Christian logic.

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[–] edoman2000 9 years ago

Clearly you haven't read God's Word, The Holy Bible.

Clearly you might have but it clear you are unable to see past the gross inconsistencies in it and believe the spoonfed, cleaned, washed, PC, and americanized portions the secular religious group use to control masses.

Good Job SHEEP.

Thinking is free........

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[–] burgershmurger 9 years ago

I commend you for asking this question. But there is not a single caveat that atheists can come up with that a bible primer has not dealt with already
Sandy Hook? Well, who was the perpetrator? Who was this psychopath? He was an avowed atheist, just like most psychopaths because a psychopath refuses to bow to God and they also refuse to go by His word and make up their own rules. Thus, Sandy Hook and all other shootings were committed by people that chose Satan over God. Or do you want God to intervene every time somebody chooses to do evil? God never promised us heaven on earth.
And as for kids being shot: Of course it's a tragedy but from a Christian perspective it means that these kids are now in a better place, namely in heaven for all eternity because Jesus Christ promised us that theirs is the kingdom. Adults though have to actively seek Jesus and give their lives over to Him for salvation. And for a born-again Christian, getting killed also means that they will be admitted to heaven and in the light of eternal bliss, what does it matter if we die at 20 or 80? Atheists have the wrong perspective as they fail to see that we Christians already have eternal life and getting shot in this world may be cruel (and we do mourn the deaths of our brothers and sisters) but it's not the end but the beginning of the real life.

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[–] ChknSoupForDaFanboysSoul 9 years ago

I stopped reading when you essentially claimed that all sociopaths are atheists. Atheism is not defined by a lack of rules or lack of morality. That is hedonism. A very common mistake made by theists.

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[–] RebBacchus 9 years ago

I would take your side if that's what he said, but I read it to mean that all the shooters were atheist, not that all atheists are somehow evil. I know far too many extremely ethical atheists to even consider that calumny.

What does bother me is that I don't know why an atheist should be moral or ethical. We humans are a rationalizing species, if we want something bad enough too many can figure out a justification for whatever they need to do to get it. Granted, my viewpoint has been shaped by spending the last twenty years working with guys in a maximum security prison ? and my own ability to justify my less admirable acts. Still, would you want to live in a society where ther weren't any Belivers? I thought the "Left Behind" series trite and way too preachy, but I think it would be interesting to see if such a society would be more like "Lord of the Flies," or Heinlein's, "Tunnel in the Sky. "

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[–] edoman2000 9 years ago

What does bother me is that I don't know why an atheist should be moral or ethical.

Wow...That is just as ignorant a statement as I've heard in a long time..... That is one of my biggest gripes with believers... They think of themself=ves as a higher class of human being just for believing in god, and look

Morality and Ethics are only valid on what they are based on..... I explain.... what Protestants call Ethical or Moral, is different than what Catholics call Moral or Ethical..... Not to mention the other thousands of religions across the world... Some religions believe in sacrificing animals, is that moral or ethical to you? To them it is..... And theres nothing that can make them change that..... Not to mention the Moral and Ethical beliefs some religions have that go to the extremes of killing those people who oppose their beliefs...Yes, just like what the Crusades were all about...remember?

So now, to answer your question, ..Why should an atheist be moral or ethical? That is simple, there is no religious or mythical constraints on my thinking.... I can do good just because it is good and it gives me pleasure to do it... I can love and help a homosexual or Lesbian the same way I would any other Heterosexual person just because I dont need to have that religious pre concieved "moral or ethical" questioning or programming in my mind.

I can follow the rules set by the society where I live without thinking they are "ungodly" or that they dont follow some "commandments" made by some people thousands of years ago..... I can talk, eat, do and feel what feels right in my heqart without having to question "what would jesus do" ...In conclusion, I can live a good life, doing good to others without having to explain to an invisible dude why I did it....... AND...If I mess up, I know its HUMAN NATURE, not some red horny dude with a pitchfork making me do bad things... I will accept responsibility and evolve to make sure I dont do it again...... That simple....

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[–] grindovermatter 9 years ago

Good Job SHEEP.

and with that, you just lost the argument.

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[–] phoebenna 9 years ago

This is a question asked a lot even from christians that believe in GOD. Why is there so much hate and suffering.? Why would you blame GOD if you don't believe in him? Do you belive in satan because there is so much suffering in this world? What about all the good things going on in this world? This is simple GOD gives everyone free will. This is not GOD doing these things. There is evil in this world it all started with Adam and Eve when God gave Adam free will and Satan lured him to eat the forbidden fruit from the tree. Adam and Eve sinned this was the beginning but GOD sent his only son to die on the cross for ALL of our sins. See we're all sinners. Some more than others. Maybe they need GOD in there lives? In the end HE will come for us all. What will you say to him? See he is waiting and giving us all a chance to know him. I've personallly have lived a better life since I've given myself to GOD. I will pray for you. God Bless....

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[–] Ohyeah12345 9 years ago

We created sin and by that account the events you describe. If you're going to post something with such events with a very clear intention then why don't you post about any of the good in this world? Why don't you post about Mother Teresa? You mention Sandy Hook - why not talk about Victoria Soto who gave her life for her students.

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[–] edoman2000 9 years ago

If you're going to post something with such events with a very clear intention then why don't you post about any of the good in this world?

Cause that is EXACTLY my problem... Already all good things that happen are attributed to god, yet when the bad things happen is cause "humans have free will" , there is a master plan and such nonesense...

And still to this point no one here has explained how that whole free will thing worked with that 2 year old...All you seem to point at is that the perpretator had free will but what about the 2year old girl?????

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[–] KvlhokVjequs 9 years ago

Free will. Pretty simple.

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[–] edoman2000 9 years ago

Free will. Pretty simple.

Please explain how that worked with the Pharaoh in Exodus?

Exodus 4:21
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Out goes that concept........

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[–] serviceuaustin 9 years ago

"Christians" don't even understand the concept of free will.

A parent tells a child that they have two choices. Choose one, and I will love you and care for you forever. Choose they other, and I will abandon you to an eternity of the worst torture you could possibly imagine.

This is NOT free will. It is petty vindictiveness. Good for keeping uneducated, illiterate simpletons in line, but not good for anyone with a brain.

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[–] Cyclo Rider 9 years ago

A parent tells a child that they have two choices. Choose one, and I will love you and care for you forever. Choose they other, and I will abandon you to an eternity of the worst torture you could possibly imagine.

No. The choices are receive Him or reject Him. If you choose torture over love, who's fault is that? You have the freedom to do so.

This is NOT free will. It is petty vindictiveness. Good for keeping uneducated, illiterate simpletons in line, but not good for anyone with a brain.

It is free will just as society has laws and people break them everyday of their own free will. There are consequences. It's not "petty vindictiveness."

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[–] edoman2000 9 years ago

Figures, that aside that whole "free will" nonesense...there is not any other explanation.......

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[–] Cyclo Rider 9 years ago

Why is free will "nonsense?"

People have it.

Receive Him or reject Him.

If one is on a cruise ship with family and decides to abandon them by jumping overboard into shark infested waters in the middle of the night, whose fault is that?

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[–] edoman2000 9 years ago

Why is free will "nonsense?"

People have it.

Nonesense as in using it to explain wy god let horrible things happen to innocent people.

As I explained people use that "explanation" for why people commit crimes, etc, and they say god cannot interfere cause he gave us free will to humans and they can do whatever they want and him intervening will be against the "rules", yet as I've explained in this same thread a couple of times, that is something only used as convenient as per the bible, god did intervene in changing the pharaoh's mind when Moses asked to release his peoples. So he CAN interfere in human thinking and affect their actions.

Still, even though, if that whole free will thing was indeed the reason, what happens with the victim? Don't they have a choice? That "free will" rule you guys so eagerly defend is absurd and one sided only to cover the perpetrator's motive and god unwillingness to interfere and protect the innocent.

Yet what happens when something is credited as a miracle? Let's say when a Shooter spares someone's life and all credit is given to god and his will to protect his children....What then? Why won't people say, thanks to the madman's shooter's free will he spared his life.???

SO many inconsitencies in your faith.

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[–] Cyclo Rider 9 years ago

Nonesense as in using it to explain wy god let horrible things happen to innocent people.

As I explained people use that "explanation" for why people commit crimes, etc, and they say god cannot interfere cause he gave us free will to humans and they can do whatever they want and him intervening will be against the "rules", yet as I've explained in this same thread a couple of times, that is something only used as convenient as per the bible, god did intervene in changing the pharaoh's mind when Moses asked to release his peoples. So he CAN interfere in human thinking and affect their actions.

Through Moses, G-D was establishing His people Israel from whom Salvation would be born. They had to be set free to enact G-D's plan of Salvation for the human race.

Still, even though, if that whole free will thing was indeed the reason, what happens with the victim? Don't they have a choice? That "free will" rule you guys so eagerly defend is absurd and one sided only to cover the perpetrator's motive and god unwillingness to interfere and protect the innocent.

If G-D interfered and protected the innocent, the Earth would be Heaven and Faith in Him would not be required. This is a fallen world with humans choosing to sin of their own free will and sin can impact anyone at anytime.

Yet what happens when something is credited as a miracle? Let's say when a Shooter spares someone's life and all credit is given to god and his will to protect his children....What then? Why won't people say, thanks to the madman's shooter's free will he spared his life.???

They believe G-D intervened and spared that life.

SO many inconsitencies in your faith.

What inconsistencies? The Earth is a fallen world because of sin and far from Heaven.

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[–] keOron2010 8 years ago

Just because God gave man free choice/free will, it doesn't mean that He's not ready to intervene - especially to those that call upon Him. Sometimes, even most of the times, He intervenes in a way that we don't expect. Your definition of God intervening may not be how God worked in those situations - the gunmen did not drop their weapons and walk out of the school saying "We saw God intervening". Joseph, in the Bible, was a slave and was imprisoned for total of 13 years, all because he told his brothers about dream that he had - God's plans for his life. But He still trusted God, he seeked God and was faithful to Him inspite of his traumatic situation (prison is not easy especially when you are wrongfully convicted). He could have been bitter and cursed God, but he chose to trust Him and be faithful to Him. And God turned his experiences into something good. He got promoted when he was released, and God's plan for his life was realised. That's where it ties up with your concern for the victims. Yes, the perpetrators made the choice to hurt and victimize the innocence. But, they also have a choice on how they can overcome the experiences. If they choose to allow God to heal them, to guide them, and to trust Him and His plans for their lives, God can intervene by using their experiences to help others, to bring healing to others, and to be promoted in their faith with Him as they walk this life.

Everyone has been a victim/victimised in a way. Some, not as traumatic as you think victims should be, but even in a small way because of someone else's choices. Even the perpetrators, even the victims at some point in their lives have been perpetrators, even in a small way. No one is innocent.

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[–] Gabe1972 8 years ago

Don't forget the holocaust, either.

This is a question that is most often answer with the tried and true (I mean ridiculous) Christian answer...."God has his plans and we are not meant to understand them." It's the Christian "get out of jail free card" when something is so ludicrous that, were it anything else, it would be considered, and logically so, complete nonsense.

You can't argue with them, though, and logic and Christianity are like oil and water.

Religion simply started out as a way to answer things that couldn't be answered at the time. Even something as simple as why the sun always rises over there and sets over there. As the years went on it just morphed into what it is today. And, sadly, religion has been the cause of more unnatural death on this planet than anything in human history, probably combined.

If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. - George W. Bush

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[–] rp69 8 years ago

Religion is a waste of effort. If mankind put half the energy into truly bettering society as they do preaching about it with religion and faith, we would be much better off. And I'm talking about people that profess good and love. When you include the crazy fundamentalists, Muslims, Christian Crusades, cults, sacrifices and everything else done in the name of god. Religion is the worst thing to ever curse mankind. If god really exists we should be shaking our clinched fists to the sky in rage.

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