MovieChat Forums > Legion (2017) Discussion > S1: Chapter 4

S1: Chapter 4

posted 7 years ago by DreamersxDisease (817)
23 replies | jump to latest

Welcome to thread for the 4th episode! This is a general, open-ended, posting so please feel free to come in here with any and all thoughts regarding this episode. Theories? Predictions? What you liked most? Least? Something just make you laugh or think?

My thoughts:
- I must say I really appreciate how honest Hawley and Co. have been in their writing. Just straight up asking questions like, "are we still in his head?" And all the stuff fans are already wondering and thinking themselves. They're not being coy or gratuitously mind-screwy with it, they're straightforwardly addressing some of it. That's refreshing, especially for a show like this.

- I'm still unclear on David's status. Is he both mentally ill and powerful? Or are they really just sticking to the whole, "it's only your powers," thing. I've read from comic readers that he's actually very insane in those, but since the show isn't following that religiously I don't know if I should let them inform me or not.

I don't think we should be wondering this now that we're halfway through the season unless they plan to make it some kind of drawn out thing for the entire show. Though that seems kind of dumb and out of character considering what I said above about their honesty. I admit, if they throw the whole mental health angle out the window now, I will be sorely disappointed and even offended somewhat.

- Lots of nice comedic moments in this one, mostly concerning Oliver. Jemaine Clement was such a perfect choice for that role!

- Interesting introduction of the astral plane. I was kind of waiting for something like that to happen, and yet I didn't connect that with David's memories. Like others I had wondered if they were fake or implanted ones, but I didn't ever think they might just be a whole other plane of reality. Did I get that right? That's what they were implying, yes? So what does that mean with everything we've seen of his "past," has it all just been a smoke screen? We know the Dr. Poole stuff really happened...if we take it at face value.

- King wasn't real! Who knew? I had not predicted that either, but kinda makes sense with the whole dog theme they have going. David's first foray into creating a personality or interacting with one, or something like that?

- It was interesting getting to see some more of Cary/Kerry. That fight scene was pretty epic!

- So, are the DYE and Lenny one in the same? In his astral bedroom she was acting like she was actually frightened, I assumed it was cause she felt the DYE coming on, but then she encouraged that to help get them out? So I'm a bit unsure there. Her creeping up on him in the end...taking over?

Alright, this has become waaaay too long and I feel like I didn't even get to half of it :P I have more to say, but I'll add more later because I'd rather see what you all have to say first. I'll end by saying...I think this was very much a make or break sort of episode. In that, this was so weird and out there, more than it has been, and I can see it being a sort of polarizing chapter. The kind of one where it may decide whether you're really along for the ride or not. Love it or hate it.

I'll also add that that episode may have only seen fit to confuse me even MORE. What the hell?! I am sick of my own typing, so I'll stop, but I'll leave you with this as it circles back to my first thought above....did we really leave David's head? And even if we did, in a sense, are we now just stuck in his other astral plane-y version of reality?

Okay, go forth fellow fans!

[–] Popcorn Kernel (2368) 7 years ago

I'm also really questioning what is real in this episode. I assume that Syd changing places with the villain was real because "Lenny" used that as the fuel to make David wake up. It seems like the devil with the yellow eyes is actually David? Like when he gets mad enough he turns into that?
Lenny's creepy fingers on David's shoulders at the end was super scary.

[–] DreamersxDisease (817) 7 years ago

DYE is definitely David....which, I know you shouldn't be certain of anything on this show...but Oliver did pretty much say that last night. Though he compared him to a parasite and not really a personality so...that would suggest it is still a foreign entity that's just in his body. So, I'm not sure all about that, maybe I'm taking that too literal and DYE is a part of David's mind, but the parasite thing comes from someone introducing that into his mind state rather than it being purely organic? I don't know, always grasping at straws with this show, eh? haha

Or did you mean something else by DYE being David? I'm all ears...errr...eyes, rather ;)

Lenny's hand looked like a part of DYE so that's why one of my last points was about them being the same thing. Or maybe they're a bit like Cary/Kerry in that they're 2 hosts inside one body or being. She's his, more human, nicer (though not by much), and more recognizable side. The one David can and will respond to and engage with...and DYE is the solely animalistic, rage, power-filled side that is forever nagging away in the background and comes out when David is backed into corners. Hm, well, that's my take!

And what about David replacing Benny with Lenny? Was that just due to his mind being scrambled by the voices, drugs, and the trauma of her death or what?

Thanks for posting!

[–] Popcorn Kernel (2368) 7 years ago

The Cary/Kerry back story does almost seem to set us up for the possibility of there being multiple discrete entities within one body. (more than multiple personalities).
But if David is like Cary/Kerry, then maybe the DYE and Lenny and the angriest boy in the world can all have corporeal form outside of David's body, as well?
Because Syd SAW Lenny in the hospital, didn't she? And other people saw Lenny stuck in the wall. So that entity had it's own physical body at some points. Did he manifest Benny first and then later replaced him with Lenny? Or maybe Benny was a real independent person, and Lenny was the manifested alter that was based on Benny?

Will Cary be able to live if Kerry dies? It seems like the guy was the "host", so they were wondering what would happen to her if he died, but they didn't mention what would happen to him if she dies.

[–] DreamersxDisease (817) 7 years ago

I rewatched the episode and started thinking of all the duplicity happening. Not even metaphorically or story-wise, but with Cary/Kerry, Benny/Lenny, Lenny/DYE. That's a lot of halves to make a whole, ya know? It's an interesting trend (well I'm calling it a trend, hah) thrown in there and I think speaks to the greater narrative and psyche of David.

Repetition, as this would be in its own way, seems to be another motif ever-present. Even within this episode we see that quasi-helix looking shape a couple separate times. Perhaps this is to give some consistency to the overall jumbled feel of it all or to give us hints at what is real and what isn't....I don't really know, but they seem to thread these things in throughout to add a little cohesion in the midst of the bigger chaos.

I don't think Kerry died, wasn't she just shot in the shoulder? Did I see that wrong? I think she'll recover, but it was fascinating to see how Cary feels all that as well. As for what happens if he dies, that remains to be seen, but could very well have been a portend for your question or something else down the line....nice thinking!

As for the whole Lenny situation. I suppose my running theory is that she was real in the hospital (again if the hospital was ever real, lol) and once she died David absorbed her in some way, or rather, the DYE did. He's using her, perhaps, as a proxy for him to do his bidding and get David listening and on his side. She shows up in his memories to give David context for her presence in his life and to trust that. She mentioned, while they were in the astral plane, that he was letting his defenses down and had opened up to them, but....it's really her he did that with by thinking she was his friend and with him throughout those times in his life.

[–] Popcorn Kernel (2368) 7 years ago

I don't know if kerry died, I was just speaking hypothetically. What would happen to Cary IF she died. He seemed to feel her pain when she was fighting and being shot, like they have a psychic communication across great distances.
But again I don't know if David's "alters" have the same relationship to David that Kerry has to Cary. Usually in these comic book universes, there is like ONE of each thing. Each mutant has their own special power, they are all one of a kind. The same thing with Miss Peregrine's school- every peculiar child had a unique peculiarity. So it's possible that David's power is nothing like Cary's.
(Although I guess Wolverine has a kid in the new Logan movie who shares his party trick?)

I just hope there aren't TOO many red herrings. I do like a good twist, but what is the point of building a story if you are just going to tear it all down at the end. there's a limit, when you have invested 10 hours into a show, you don't want to hear "it was all a dream" at the end.

[–] Mahrez99 (236) 7 years ago

This episode was quite straightforward in what was real and not I felt. The only unclear parts where Syd seeing the angry boy in the woods. What were they doing making a fire in the woods anyway? We see them in a city, then out in the woods, then in the city again, then back in the woods. Very strange, and one that could point to this all being inside Davids head. But at this point, with how they have delivered the story so far, it would be a deal-breaker for me. Agree with Popcorn. All fine with a good twist, but everything an illusion is just bad.

[–] DreamersxDisease (817) 7 years ago

Oh, I misinterpreted, my bad!

I don't think David and a personality or personalities have exactly what Cary/Kerry do...I was just observing something that I think there has been a bigger trend of. There seems to be a lot of "host," "parasite," or mutual symbiosis kind of stuff going on. Clearly, David's relationship to Lenny is something he barely even understands yet, so it makes sense we wouldn't really and who the hell knows with the DYE.

So far, that's fairly undiscovered country and we're just on the tip of the iceberg of it all. Whatever relationship he had is surely going to change now that he's coming into his own understanding anyways. A dime has shifted, it feels.

[–] Mahrez99 (236) 7 years ago

"I rewatched the episode and started thinking of all the duplicity happening. Not even metaphorically or story-wise, but with Cary/Kerry, Benny/Lenny, Lenny/DYE. That's a lot of halves to make a whole, ya know?"

I felt the part with Cary/Kerry could very well be a foreshadowing of Syd being a creation of David. Then again we have Syd narrating the story, clearly separate of David, so I guess this is just all wishful thinking..

[–] gun_will_travel@hotmail.com (65) 7 years ago

In the comics, when David kills someone with his power, he absorbs their psyche into his growing stable of multiple personalities which are vying for control of his body and aspects of his virtual omnipotence. So one personality may exert primary control over pyrokinesis, another telepathy, and another telekinesis, etc.

These personalities may manifest as David's dominant personality, or as discrete apparitions within his psyche, or as voices/visions/images, or anything in between.

Keeps the viewer guessing!

[–] DreamersxDisease (817) 7 years ago

I didn't see this exchange till just now, but I hope they incorporate all those powers into this incarnation of David. I know they're going off book, so to speak, but having that kind of conflict in one character just sounds so awesome and like it'd be really interesting to watch.

You mentioned discrete apparitions and that's sort of how I was theorizing some people we know of to be real could end up not being...I had said I thought maybe his powers were so strong he could literally and physically manifest his other personalities out into the real world so as to appear like they're their own individual beings.

I'm also wondering, that as the show goes on and we come to understand David as using and changing between personalities here and there if they're going to take that the extra mile and actually have different actors assume the role other than Dan Stevens to really show the extreme difference from person to person and power to power...or if we'll see that all represented solely within him.

I suppose, the cheaper option is the latter, haha and I'm sure would be more fun/challenging for Stevens. The thought of seeing them come in and out like that is also an exciting prospect to me. David seems like the sort of character that kind of just keeps on giving with the endless problems and possibilities he presents.

[–] Mahrez99 (236) 7 years ago

"I think this was very much a make or break sort of episode. In that, this was so weird and out there, more than it has been, and I can see it being a sort of polarizing chapter."

Indeed.. Very disappointing episode for me. Trippy as hell, like the first two, but so lacking in style in comparison. That Syd-narration was just horrible! With that (and some of the other scenes) they suddenly started spoon-feeding us the answers to so many of the interesting questions that was so creatively and carefully crafted during the first episodes.

The astral plane was way to cartoonish too, even if it the guy he met there and their interactions were a bit cool.

Had this feeling watching that some Michael Bay wannabe had taken over the whole project after the first three episodes. Will continue watching, but a big letdown!

[–] DreamersxDisease (817) 7 years ago

I can understand that, like I said, I anticipated reactions like it. I said make or break, but I already kind of undermined by own point by liking some parts of it more than others, haha, oh well.

Narration is always a toss up. I think it's something you either have to commit to or not. Take Mr. Robot, which has been compared to this show many times already. That has successful narration, in my opinion, because it was always there from the onset. The audience immediately was cued into Elliot (protagonist) from the get go and they've rarely let up since because it's an important component.

But here, they use it so intermittently that it loses its impact and just sounds jarring in the middle of everything we're seeing. So, I agree, I'm not much of a fan of it either. I think either stick to one sort of narration and keep it going or don't do it at all.

The astral plane....yes, it wasn't the best CGI in the world. We're not going to get blockbuster-esque level CGI, but obviously they know that. They're dreaming on a budget and I believe Hawley and Co. are a smart bunch and realize just how that whole thing looks. It's certainly a big style choice and direction, I'd love to hear their thoughts behind conceiving it. It didn't really bother me, but it's definitely one of those moments where it can make you say, "what the fuck," in either a good way or bad way, lol.

They had soooo much jam-packed into this episode that I almost wonder if they needed that much. Spread the love and all that, but again, we are already halfway through and I get that they have to start ramping up more of the story and get David to the next stage of his evolution...err...escalation...we'll go with both :P

I must say, after seeing the preview for next week, I'm already onto and excited for that. The idea of them being trapped in his astral plane and him having that complete sort of control, while Lenny/DYE may be in charge sounds like some next level horror movie stuff. I'm pretty jazzed for that....who knows...maybe by the end of the season, when binged, or in time this episode will jive or work better for you and many others who I'm sure are uneasy about it.

[–] MinaVladimir (4077) 7 years ago

This show broke my brain! I'm so confused. But I think they're purposfully trying to disorientate us.

I think David is definitely mentaly ill. With his powers, and him not knowing for so long what was happening with him, I think that's enough to drive anyone insane.

I also think Scary Neck Man, Little Boy Frank, Dead Lenny and the dog* are created by Davids mind as sort of coping mechanisms, to make sense of what's happening to him. Sort of like the imaginary friends children have. And that he can make them "real", or manifest in the real world. Ooor it could be that his powers have attracted some sort of entity that's infested his mind, and is trying to take over, or use him, or something... As to the whole Benny/Lenny thing, I think they were both real, but got jumbled up in his mind.

The narration out of nowhere startled me. But maybe it's a hind that Syd's not real? Or that they were still in his mind? The ex-girlfriend said that they were watching. But who are "They"? The people after David? The other "personalities"?

And the astral plane CGI was... interesting. But I like the look of it. Sort of unreal, otherworldly thing going on there.

Jemaine Clement was great. Great bits of humour with him. And I love the way Dan Stevens reacts to things. Sort of like "What? Huh? What's happening?". Kind of how I feel haha.

It was definately a bonkers episode, but I haven't been this wonderfully confused in a long time, so it's definately a "make" not a "break" episode for me.

This sums it up nicely, I think.

*You have to excuse my definitions, I'm not up to what they're actualy called yet, lol

[–] gun_will_travel@hotmail.com (65) 7 years ago

"they're purposefully trying to disorientate us"

Yes. Part of the story is that we're getting Haller's perspective, and Haller is mentally ill. His perceptions and memories are not reliable, so things we see cannot be taken as truthful.

You've got at least one type of mental illness, maybe more. Drugs. Intentional and unintentional telepathic tinkering. All are affecting his mind, in additional to some extreme psychological trauma. And then there's the fact that Haller's perception of reality actually creates reality. You can definitely throw conventional perception out the window.

[–] MinaVladimir (4077) 7 years ago

"You've got at least one type of mental illness". I thought you were talking about me at first :D. Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing, if you can manage it haha.

I was suspecting he was manipulating reality in some way. It's definately something I'll be keeping in mind going forward.

[–] DreamersxDisease (817) 7 years ago

They're definitely trying to disorient us, like the poster below me said...that's pretty much what happens when you're getting a story from a first person POV. And we just so happen to be getting it from one of the most unreliable narrators to ever exist, haha, lucky us!

I like how you put it, 'wonderfully confused.' I think that's about right. There are certainly two different kinds of confused, and for me, Legion is the good kind! It's maddening, but delightfully and intriguingly so. At the same time, I don't fault people for not liking it and thinking it's the bad kind of confusing because there is a lot going on and it is really weird and for some that's just not up their alley.

I'm wondering too, who Philly meant by, "they're watching." It's easy to assume it's Division 3. They pretty much implanted and made up that memory in Philly's mind of her, David, and Dr. Poole having lunch or whatever...or they at least manipulated it in order to trap Syd, Ptonomy, and Kerry at the lighthouse. Sooo, I'd go with them watching for now because it seems they got into her head somehow or at least knew the Summerland gang would be coming to her to find out.

Layers, upon layers upon layers, eh?!

I too love David's reactions, haha, because like you said they're the same ones we're mostly likely having ourselves! Just this deer in the headlights, "what the fuck is happening?!" kind of expression. Especially when he was with Oliver this week and his eyes remained wide pretty much the entire scene, lol!

I, for one like the names you've given David's psychic friends (I use that word loosely, of course). I've been calling Devil with the Yellow Eyes, the 'Goiter Goblin' and I feel like I always will even if/when we find out who or what he really is. It's just a name that sticks!

It feels weird to say, but I'm glad others feel or it seems that he is still considered or seen as mentally ill. I mean, it's a horrible thing to go through, but...like I mentioned above, I really would like to stick and explore this part of him as much as the powers. Maybe that's just me, but since they do almost go hand in hand, I think it's worth developing. Even if he's not conventionally mentally ill, going through what he has with not only the more fantastical elements, but being medicated possibly for the wrong thing and being institutionalized and all that would clearly take their toll on someone and maybe even create a mental health issue, so I just hope they've taken that into account and let it be apart of his character.

I'm pumped for next week's episode!

[–] DreamersxDisease (817) 7 years ago

holy cow, I'm sorry for that wall of text, got away from my own damn self like usual :P

[–] MinaVladimir (4077) 7 years ago

I'm seriously considering re-watching the episodes so far (that's not something I usualy do).

I really like the fact that they're mixing mental illness with powers. It's interesting to me to see how a broken mind deals with these types of abilities. And if he can create reality, as gun_will_travel said, then that adds another dimension (hehe) to his problems and struggles and my quetioning "what is even real, even?"

I'm still on the fence as to who's the "they". But the more I think about it, the more confused I become, so I'll let that marinate for a while.

Goiter Goblin is very fitting. Maybe he just whats David to give him some iodine tables, poor guy.

[–] DreamersxDisease (817) 7 years ago

This show begs you to rewatch it, you almost have to in order to keep up and everything in line. I've watched the episodes a couple times...not altogether or back to back, but I figure I'll do that when the whole season is done.

I like the mixing of mental illness and power as well as powers as a sort of mental illness/sickness. It's a really interesting and a more nuanced take on it than I'm used to seeing. I certainly wouldn't ever envy someone having to deal with those two things haha...that's why, even if/when David kind of goes rogue (as I think he will), I'll still be pretty empathetic towards him, hell, he's already done some questionable things, but that's also what makes him a fun character to watch.

It comes back to Oliver's opener. Is David to be feared or empathized with? I thought watching Syd and Ptomony and the rest starting to grapple with that was a nice turn of events.

[–] MinaVladimir (4077) 7 years ago

Yes, powers as a mental illness is also a very interisting thing to explore. Any sort of ability is bound to affect the psyche of those that have it. Especialy if it's something like telepathy and the like.

You can still fear someone and empathize with them. And it depends on how much control he has over what he does (he doesn't seem to have much so far). It'll be interesting to see how the "gang" deals with the situation, if he goes rogue.

[–] DreamersxDisease (817) 7 years ago

True, you can do both, but that's a hard balance...I think one end of the spectrum will always win out over the other. I'd wager, if he gains more control of his powers and becomes possibly the most powerful person on the planet, most of that will sour into fear or a lust to command it.

I had a theory that both sides (Division 3 and Summerland) were all just about using him to weaponize him, basically. And well, they are (even though Bird claims they do care about him) and to be a commodity like that will never end up well and probably will only serve to hurt his mental state even more. That's why I predict he'll split and go rogue or possibly turn more from a protagonist into an antagonist...which doesn't equate to villain, mind you...but will fit more squarely into an anti-hero status. He's already within that space, but I have a feeling he'll go deeper, especially if Goiter Goblin and Lenny are on his back, literally and not!

[–] beto (143) 7 years ago

I thought the book was an allegory of something I couldn't see, but now that I know the dog isn't real AND Lenny is actually Benny, I don't know what to think... God, I love this feeling, it's like Mr. Robot without hacking.

The paranoia remains.

[–] DreamersxDisease (817) 7 years ago

I just wanted to say thanks for all the responses! I mean that in the most un-narcissistic way possible, haha. I'm just very happy to see the activity boost this board has gotten over the last week or so and enjoy reading all of the intelligent, fun, and thoughtful discussions that have been going on.

I was worried that I'd be receiving nothing, but echos when creating these threads and am pleasantly surprised to see it's been the opposite. I only hope it continues...so thanks again, you guys rock ;)