I finally watched this and there's no doubt at all in my mind... - Making a Murderer (2015) Discussion

[–] paranoja 8 years ago

What made you think he was guilty?

By the way - what do you make of his nephew, Bobby Dassay's, part in this?

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[–] misterbfd 8 years ago

Gosh, I'd have to write an essay to answer that question comprehensively and thoroughly. I studied law for a few years in the 1970's. I've known an actual murderer (a Florida state trooper named Charlie Trice, who shot his wife to death) and a person who accidentally killed several people (my brother - RIP). I've studied several significant murder trials because they had odd intersections with my own life (Billy Ferry, Jr. and Bobby Joe Long) and I've sat in the front row of extremely high-profile murder cases (Ted Bundy's trial in Tampa, for instance).

In the case of Ferry, I actually pulled all of the material I could possibly get on the case (I was on the scene moments after it happened and I wanted to write a book about it) including psychiatric reports, court records, trial transcripts, interviews, media coverage, and I even interviewed people who were involved in the case (victim relatives, law enforcement, court officials, mental health professionals).

If I can nutshell it for you, while there are a ton of individual pieces that I use to come to this conclusion, I find Steven Avery himself to be both deceptive and manipulative. Avery himself seems to me to be very much similar to Ferry in many, many ways. While that doesn't make him a killer, it certainly allows me to view Avery through the lens of someone who was also convicted of murder and behaved similarly to Avery.

And I feel for Mr. Dassey, because I believe he was grossly manipulated into embellishing what he knew about the murder. I believe he was being manipulated by both sides of this case, both law enforcement and Mr. Avery.

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[–] catbookss 8 years ago

If I can nutshell it for you, while there are a ton of individual pieces that I use to come to this conclusion, I find Steven Avery himself to be both deceptive and manipulative.

I think that's what the other poster was looking for -- your nutshell version. I too was interested in reading it.

Which pieces of evidence stand out most to you, that most convinced you?

I feel the same way about Brendan Dassey.

You sat front row on the Bundy trial?! That must have been interesting, to say the least.

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[–] paranoja 8 years ago

You sat front row on the Bundy trial?! That must have been interesting, to say the least.

Is it bad that I wanted to squee out a "DEAR F---" to this? Seriously, more interesting than Avery who seems to be your average boring killer.

Yes, in your spare time, do write about it.

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[–] misterbfd 8 years ago

I was studying law and my mentor was Harry Lee Coe in Hillsborough County (Tampa). One of Bundy's trials was held in Tampa, so Judge Coe reserved seats for us at the trial. It was standing room only. He defended himself. He was handsome, affable, intelligent. He flirted with ladies in the gallery and on the jury. It was clear that many women there were smitten with Mr. Bundy, which he used to his favor.

Prosecutors did not appreciate Bundy's antics, but the judge insisted that since Bundy was representing himself, he intended to "give Mr. Bundy plenty of latitude".

At many points I found that I had to remind myself that Ted Bundy was a monster. He seemed like such a nice guy. I guess that's what made him such a successful serial killer.

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[–] paranoja 8 years ago

At many points I found that I had to remind myself that Ted Bundy was a monster. He seemed like such a nice guy. I guess that's what made him such a successful serial killer.

Which is the problem when anyone's looking at a killer. They think they're going to see a MONSTER. Personally, I've been fascinated with the Jack the Ripper case since I was a child and there's the same problem there - everyone was looking for someone CRAZY! Instead of someone who would fit in.

Oh well. Thanks for your story, back to the topic, at least it took us all away from the happenings in Turkey.

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[–] catbookss 8 years ago

One of Bundy's trials was held in Tampa, so Judge Coe reserved seats for us at the trial. It was standing room only.

I didn't follow the Bundy trials, so didn't realize there was more than one. It doesn't surprise me that it was standing room only in the courtroom, but I find your observations intriguing.

Prosecutors did not appreciate Bundy's antics, but the judge insisted that since Bundy was representing himself, he intended to "give Mr. Bundy plenty of latitude".

I'm not involved in law, professionally, and am curious to know -- if you know -- if that is usually or often the case -- that defendants who represent themselves are often given latitude.

At many points I found that I had to remind myself that Ted Bundy was a monster. He seemed like such a nice guy. I guess that's what made him such a successful serial killer.

Very interesting. Again, I'm hardly an expert on Bundy, although I've watched a few videos on him, including the interview he gave right before he was executed. I can understand your having to remind yourself he was a monster, lacking any empathy for others or remorse for any of his actions, as horrifying as that is. Psychopaths are usually quite adept at emulating normal human emotions in order to fool others, and get whatever it is they want. I'm sure the fact that he was so adept at it ensured his ability at being such a successful killer and serial killer, along with many who are either unable or unwilling to listen to their "gut" instincts about others. It's easy to dismiss these things, as they're frequently dismissed by so many others. Which isn't to say paranoia is the way to go; there is a difference.

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[–] misterbfd 8 years ago

I don't fully recall the context of the hearing that was held in Tampa. It was moved here (Hillsborough County) after a change of venue from Tallahassee.

Yes, according to Judge Coe when he talked to us about the hearing, he stated that judges tend to give defendants who represent themselves lots of latitude because they're not trained lawyers and they don't want to give them possible fodder for having rulings overturned on appeal.

He was quite suave and of course attractive, and seemed like a very affable fellow. You could tell that the law enforcement and medical professionals who took the stand really had a strong dislike for him, however.

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[–] mme3924-1 8 years ago

I studied law for a few years in the 1970's.

Law school is usually three years. So, are you an attorney, then? Practicing? Retired?

Always interested in hearing an officer of the court's views on this case. I've known -- and worked for -- a number of lawyers, and it's my experience they see such things through their own lens, due to their respect for and love for the Rule of Law. Knowing how it all works, they weigh everything; they rarely see things the way laymen do, who tend to be naïve about the law and the courtroom.

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[–] misterbfd 8 years ago

I did not go to law school. I spent several years in a special legal studies program that was offered to exceptional high school students who were interested in attending law school.

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[–] JeffS90092 8 years ago

Given the saturation of the law market, you're lucky you didn't.

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[–] satan44 8 years ago

Being an *beep* socially incompetent, or even a psychopath doesn´t make anyone guilty of murder.

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[–] mme3924-1 8 years ago

Brendan Dassey.

At least he's the one in prison, so I assume that's who you mean.

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[–] lawitall 8 years ago

I concur 100%. He was a psychopath from the get go. He was just unlucky in that he was arrested for the rape that he did not do. But, he did kill TH, and his attorneys try to make this out to be the cover up, framing of the century. That one policeman was correct, killing him would have been easier than framing him. No doubt the jury got it right. You know the best place to learn to be a criminal, prison! Anyone who has been been there will tell you they know more coming out than going in. SA is a rapist and killer.

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[–] bluesafari 8 years ago

Innocent, without a doubt in my mind according to the law, this is a prime example of the flawed justice system in the land of the ever so holy.

How could anyone in their mind think that Avery is guilty beyound doubt, this stinks of atleast incompetent police, they surely couldnt handle the embarrassment of Avery sueing their asses of due to the first failed atempt to lock Avery awag in prison for life. Evil people indeed behind this injustice. It really blows my mind that anyone think its a fair conviction.

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[–] Ro-bust 8 years ago

Evil people indeed behind this injustice

And what type of person do you think Steven Avery is?

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[–] bluesafari 8 years ago

Well what does it matter what one might think of Avery, i have no reason to believe that he himself is evil, and that the entire Avery family is evil, and that their genepool should be shut down as Len's helping hand stated, you know the one that which job was to prove and aid Dasseys in his fight for justice.

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[–] Ro-bust 8 years ago

I didnt ask about Dassey i asked about Steven Avery who yes is an evil *beep*.

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[–] bluesafari 8 years ago

@well i responded, and why is it you think of Avery as evil? Any somewhat intelligent being easily sees that he was sentenced to a lifetime in prison without being proven guilty beyound any reasonable doubt, i guess alot of those who believes in his guilt, built their reasoning om feelings, and a patriotism which in this matter includes a brainwashed idea of Police is men of honour by default.

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[–] Ro-bust 8 years ago

First of my feeling of his being evil has nothing to do with the case he is currently sitting in jail for (although that just proves me right) and someone can think a person is evil without thinking police are all men of honour.

Honestly I have the feeling you have only watch MAM, because for anyone to say we think he is guilt purely based on feelings, cannot have a very good knowledge of this case and the evidence that points to his guilt. In fact I would say the opposite is true, people think he is innocent based on their feelings towards the police without basing that opinion on any evidence at all.

Anyway, why do I think Steven is EVIL:

Before he was convicted falsely; he burned a cat alive and worse yet tried to force his cousin into his car at gun point, only stopping when she told him her baby daughter would freeze to death in the car if he did in fact abduct her. (Six of the 18 years he served was for this act).

After he was released from prison; he had numerous complaints of domestic abuse made against him, including an incident when his brother Earl witnessed him kicking his girlfriend like a dog. He then had allegations of sexual abuse and even rape made against him by his neices and nephews. Even Brendan Dassey told his mother that not only had Steven touched him, be he had witnessed him touching an underage girl inappropriately. Once again Earl (who is a scumbag himself) didnt want his daughters around Steven and felt he was capable of kidnapping a woman.

Even if Steven Avery is innocent of kidnapping and killing Teresa( which I am 99 per cent sure he is), he is still an evil person in my eyes.

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[–] satan44 8 years ago

I´m with you bluesafari. People seem to miss the "beyond any reasonable doubt" part when determining whether Avery is guilty or not. I´m sorry, but saying that evidence and circumstances are such that there can be no doubt, is silly, at least as far as the facts are presented in this documentary.

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[–] 8 years ago

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