MovieChat Forums > Loki (2021) Discussion > Free Will: Concept misused here.

Free Will: Concept misused here.

posted 3 years ago by ace2 (552)
11 replies | jump to latest

Typically Free Will has to do with the idea of a predefined destiny or fate. A more modern/scientific interpretation is the idea of your biology (environment plus brain chemistry) pre-determining all your decisions.

This is not what was going on here; this is closer to external intervention. Closer to just killing someone, or putting them in prison -- nothing to do with free will. In my opinion its just simple freedom.

Disappointing because this is an interesting area of philosophy. Its not handled as well as the multiverse plot points, which are apparently based on real physics theory.

[–] FilmBuff (6857) 3 years ago

The show has been questioning free will in exactly the way you describe in your first paragraph. When Immortus dodges Loki and Sylvie's attacks, and when he shows them the script of what they've said and are about to say, he is showing them that their words, actions, and thoughts are already set in stone. They feel that they are making a choice in the moment, but they are merely acting out a part that has been biologically predetermined.

[–] ace2 (552) 3 years ago

Exactly right, I agree completely with how it was done in your example.

My problem is with Sylvie accusing the TVA/Immortus of taking free will from people. They know what people will do, but they are not determining it. The only thing they do is remove variants from the equation.

Perhaps if they actually coerced people subconsciously, or changed things/or memories to alter decision making, (closer to the Adjustment Bureau or inception), you could get closer to the idea of them determining people's actions.

[–] faqbaby (54) 3 years ago

Doesn't that mean the variants have no free will if they are killed because they didn't follow the path that the TVA wants?

[–] Corbell (9703) 3 years ago

Basically. You have free will, as long as you make the right choice. If you make the wrong one, they kill you.

[–] fc31 (4853) 3 years ago

But there is no threat, not they know of, so people do have free will.

[–] FilmBuff (6857) 3 years ago

I don't think it's as simple as that. Like most things time travel related, it's paradoxical.

You have free will, and every action and choice you make is completely up to you. Meanwhile, I'm observing and recording everything you do. I then go back into time and I know exactly what you will say and do before you do it. You are doing it of your own free will, yet all that you do is set in stone and, in a sense, preordained.

[–] ace2 (552) 3 years ago

That's a fair interpretation. But still it wouldn't be the TVA that took the free will away or determined what you would do. So it wouldn't make sense for Sylvie to blame them for that.

[–] FilmBuff (6857) 3 years ago

I don't think Sylvie was thinking carefully or logically. She was acting out a lifetime of rage and resentment, and seeking revenge.

[–] fc31 (4853) 3 years ago

Not preordained. TVA can only intervene if there is a time branch. They can't if there isn't. So not everything is set in stone, in fact most of the things aren't.

[–] ace2 (552) 3 years ago

Whether things are set in stone/preordained is the ongoing philosophical debate.

But we can agree that even if they were, it would not be because of the TVA. In a negligible number of cases compared to the total population of those who have ever lived, the TVA will curtail an individual's future. But again this is closer to taking away their freedom rather than taking away their free will.

[–] ace2 (552) 3 years ago

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