MovieChat Forums > General Discussion > American Monuments being taken down.....

American Monuments being taken down.....


What do you think of this? Do you think that this is right or wrong?

For my part, I feel that they should stay up. Right or wrong, they are a part of our history. They are a reminder of what went on over the years. Nobody should ever forget history. I feel that by taking them down, no matter how offensive they are to certain people, even ME, we are taking away reminders of our rich history as a nation. To me, it would be the same as trying to downplay the Holocaust.
Tell me I am wrong, right, ??????
I'm interested in anyone's views on this controversial subject. I respect all views.

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[deleted]

American monuments. Sorry, Dazed. You are from the UK, right?
These days here in the states, many feel that monuments to historical figures should come down. Some were slave owners. Many were confederate leaders from the Civil War.

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[deleted]

There are definitely those in our society who try to instill that guilt.

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I didn't really think that you weren't interested. You wouldn't have asked me about what I was talking about if you weren't interested.

I agree! history is history and I believe that we should always be interested and LEARN from it. I'm not sure about guilt. As I said, we should learn from the mistakes and move to correct those mistakes we made in the past.

How do I feel about slave owners? I think that what they did and do is appalling! They took away the dignity of other human beings. Many of the southern plantation owners in our history treated human beings worse than they treated their livestock!

Do I think that monuments to these people should be taken down? No.
These are a reminder of our history, good or bad. We should learn from these reminders.

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[deleted]

"Do I think that monuments to these people should be taken down? No.
These are a reminder of our history, good or bad. We should learn from these reminders."

So do you think there should be statues of Hitler and Eichmann and other Nazis in heroic poses put up around Germany to serve as "reminders"?

It's interesting that monuments to the Holocaust are all set up in such a way as to remember the VICTIMS, whereas monuments about the Confederacy and American slavery are all set up in such a way as to remember the PERPETRATORS, and to glorify them. There are virtually no monuments to the SLAVES that those generals fought to keep in their chains. There are reasons for this.

These kinds of historical monuments are never, ever just about "remembering history" in the abstract. They exist to make an ideological point. They're either about remembering the crimes and their victims, or they're about remembering the perpetrators and erasing the crimes and victims. These Confederate monuments in the US decidedly fit into the latter category, which is why neo-Nazis and Klansmen use them to this day as rallying symbols. You don't see European neo-Nazis defending Holocaust memorials; you see them vandalizing them.

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The concentration camps are reminders enough.
I didn't start this thread to start a fight. I started it to gain more understanding. I may learn from all of you.
Who knows? I may even change my views!

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agree 100%

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I think that I will change my title to, AMERICAN Monuments being taken down...
I'm on that NOW.

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On its face, what you are saying seems very reasonable. The problem is, like with so many things, those darn little nuances. These monuments weren't erected directly after The Civil War. The were erected during the civil rights era, and during the period directly corresponding with Jim Crow. They're a blight on our history, and a rallying call for white supremacists. Take 'em down.

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They're not real monuments, they're mostly cheap mass-fabricated statues put up during civil rights eras as insults.

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"it would be the same as trying to downplay the Holocaust."

This would make sense as an argument if monuments to the Holocaust were all statues of Hitler and Himmler and Goebbels and so on.

Fact is, these Confederate statues in the US exist to glorify slaveholders and people who fought to defend slavery. Those statues mostly didn't even exist until the 1950s and 60s during the racist reaction to the civil rights movement. They were never about "remembering history" in the abstract, but about glorifying white supremacism. They should be torn down, every last one, and ground into dust.

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As I said, I respect all responses.

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My initial response was the same as MissMargo's. However, I didn't know most of these statues didn't exist until the Civil Rights movement in the 50s and 60s, in response.

That does change my views.

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I confess that I wasn't aware of when many of these statues were erected either.
I'm learning.... I'm LEARNING!

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You and me both. This is a great topic for discussion. Thanks for starting it. I now feel I have a decent enough grasp on what the problem with these monuments is, and hadn't before.

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I think it is a good topic for discussion as well. I hope that we can all remain civil.

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Yes, we don't need an (un)Civil War here! So far, so good :)

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It's unfortunate people who happen to be born in a sub-culture are coerced into having a fondness for that culture.

I used to live in SE Michigan, and Henry Ford is very well thought of. But it seems he was an obvious anti-Semite.
I didn't know this growing up, and he did do a lot of good things as far as employing a lot of people at livable wages, but he wasn't a saint.

I feel bad for people who think their heritage is being ripped away from them, and we shouldn't ignore the reality of history.
I think any governor or mayor who wants a monument of a southern Civil War figure to stand, they should put it in front of their own home or office. If they feel strongly enough this person should be remembered, they should stand next to them.

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Perhaps they should be put in the local museums????

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Some of the ones that were removed from public streets have been moved to confederate cemeteries. That seems like a respectful place for them that lets people see them who are interested in civil war history, but they are out of the general view unless you go seek them out.

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[deleted]

Sorry to interrupt,but you don't need monuments to remember what happened in history.For example,in Irak they took down saddam's statue,but they still remember.

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^Exactly, I hate seeing right-winger-whiners on Facebook and such who equate the statue removal with "erasing history." It's just an asinine point to make. History doesn't need statues.

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I thought i'm the only one who thinks this way...thank you,frogarama.

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Pretty much most right wingers infest social media forums. They are not very hard to find.

The one under are noses is from WI, a red state, that has a majority leader in U.S. congress.

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Except that those who control the present also control history, or the history they want you to believe.

It's very easy that way to wipe out a lot of things from memory, good AND bad.

I think the monuments should stay, though I think a museum may be a better place to house them.

There is nothing to stop the protestors putting up their own bigger & better monuments to whomever they think deserves one.

Destroying historical monuments and statues is just what Isis does. Don't be like them.

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I'm not like them,keybored...i knew my post will cause another misunderstanding...but,i don't understand why you have to built a statue for someone...isis!?

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Isis wouldn't have any statues or monuments.

Perhaps if people were honest about history instead of rying to hide or destroy it then we wouldn't need statues and monuments at all.

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Are you talking about the godess or the organization,keybored?

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The organisation.

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The organisation...well,it's a sensitive subject and i don't want to start another misunderstanting,especially about this...

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Destroying historical monuments and statues is just what Isis does. Don't be like them.

Except these are not historical monuments, they are literally cheap, mass-produced propaganda for white supremacists. Read up on when they were erected, and why.

Here's one: http://insideofknoxville.com/2017/08/monument-battle-lines-drawn-in-knoxville-but-are-the-lines-really-that-clear/

" Erected in 1891, an inscription was added in 1932 which read, “United States troops took over the state government and reinstated the usurpers but the national election of November 1876 recognized white supremacy in the South and gave us our state.”"

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"Except these are not historical monuments, they are literally cheap, mass-produced propaganda for white supremacists. Read up on when they were erected, and why."

I'm curious about this. I wonder who produced these mass-production monuments. I'd assume the manufacturer would be in a southern state, and be a white supremacist themselves. Do you know?

I'm also curious how many there are. If they were mass-produced, there would have to be a lot of the same monuments.

The one you linked to wasn't mass-produced as a backlash to the Civil Rights movement, nor was its inscription -- however offencive -- made during that time.

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I've answered my own question with some Googling.

The manufacturers of these mass-produced monuments were in fact generic monument companies from the northern states. There are similar Union monuments in the north. One site referred to the ordering of them as like Mr Potatohead, where you'd pick out which features and so on you wanted.

So far, I haven't been able to find any mentioned that were ordered and erected as push-back to the Civil Rights movement.

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Some good objective input here, Cat.

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Thanks, Db. I do try to be objective and fair, and to understand both sides of issues.

So far, what I've found is the majority of these monuments were ordered and erected between the late 1880s, +50 years. Many who were behind purchasing and erecting them did conflate commemorating the Civil War and white supremacy, but not all. Obviously some of this was push-back about freed African American former slaves, and the Jim Crow laws, but I still haven't found anything about monuments being erected during the 50s and 60s and in reaction to the Civil Rights movement.

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https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/8/15/16153220/trump-confederate-statues

The two major upticks on the chart shown on this page: After 1900, around the same time the NAACP was founded, and 1963.

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Thanks, Frogarama. I couldn't find any reference to monuments being raised during the Civil Rights movement.

I disagree there was a major uptick in 1963. It's only slightly more than in 1929-30, when there was no particular racial unrest event. Two each in the next years, followed by none, and then a few more.

BTW, I didn't count the dots, but I've read there are only 130 of these Confederate monuments in the whole of the South. That's important only to keep things in perspective.

I don't know that I could attribute the escalation of them to the formation of the NAACP in 1909. Momentum had started well before that, and continued for a few years afterwards, then decreasing as sharply as they increased before the peak in 1911.

From the article:

"They assert that a war fought on behalf of slavery was a just one, that the people who fought it were morally upright, and that white supremacy should be cherished as part of Southern “heritage.”"

While "they" isn't defined, I assume it refers to those who erected the monuments. There's no question there were and still are those who believe this, however I don't think everyone in the South believed or believes this.

I think all of this is more complicated than that.

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From what I've read, the cheap "hollow" statues that crumple like foil when toppled were mostly funded by the Daughters of the Confederacy.

It even mentions those on their wiki page here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Daughters_of_the_Confederacy

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They may have been. But those cheap hollow statues were made by manufacturers in the North, and there are many similar cheap Northern statues, purchases from the same manufacturers.

Wow, the UDC is one wildly mixed bag. I didn't know anything about them until now. Their aims ranged from horrifying to noble.

I'm reading about Lost Cause now, thanks to your link, which is both interesting and disturbing.

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Manufacturers are there to make money. If they are paid to make a statue, they'll probably make one. Plus, after the Civil War was over, the North/South dichotomy became mostly irrelevant.

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Of course they are. My point is the cheaply made statues were made by Northern manufacturers, and also sold to and erected by Northerners. I.e., it wasn't just a UDC/Southern thang.

After the Civil War, it became mostly irrelevant to the North (who won), but not the South (who lost, and whose economy was destroyed). All the same, post-Civil War, both North and South erected monuments to honour their dead.

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All of this is so very interesting! I am ashamed of myself though. I never did my homework before starting this thread. You all have done it! I have learned so much!
Thank you!

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Hey, I hadn't done the homework either. I now know a LOT more about all of this, thanks to your starting this thread :)

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And P.S., speaking of rewriting history, this is from the wiki link:

In 1896, the organization established the Children of the Confederacy to teach the same values to the younger generation, through a mythical depiction of the Civil War and Confederacy designed to rewrite history. According to DuRocher, "Like the KKK's children's groups, the UDC utilized the Children of the Confederacy to impart to the rising generations their own white-supremacist vision of the future."

The communications studies scholar W. Stuart Towns notes UDC's role "in demanding textbooks for public schools that told the story of the war and the Confederacy from a definite southern point of view". He adds that their work is one of the "essential elements perpetuating Confederate mythology"

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Yeah, your first quote is the horrifying part I mentioned.

I don't mind if Southerners want their point of view *included* in history books. That's only fair. When I was in school, all I was taught was Southerners bad, Northerners good. But perpetuating Confederacy mythology, no.

Interestingly, slavery was first made legal, in the States, during the 1600s, and in more Northern states than South! 5 North, 2 South.

Weren't the majority of those who dealt in the slave trade Northerners? Aside from Brits.

So it pretty much sucks and is hypocritical that when the North became industrialised and didn't need slaves, but had brought them to the South, making them an integral part of their economic structure, Northerners wanted to abolish slavery. Which, coincidentally, would have virtually no impact on them.

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Interestingly, slavery was first made legal, in the States, during the 1600s, and in more Northern states than South! 5 North, 2 South.

Well, colonization started in the North (northeast technically), and you're talking about a time nearly 200 years before the United States was even an official nation.

Not to mention, yes slavery was a norm everywhere in the U.S. for a long time. It took a long time for the divisions of North and South to form. It took a long time for southern and western states to even become truly populated.

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Nope. The original 13 colonies were:

Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Georgia, Connecticut, Massachusetts Bay, Maryland, South Carolina, New Hampshire, Virginia, New York, North Carolina, and Rhode Island and Providence Plantations.

The British first established plantations in the South. In order to make them succeed, they needed labour. Native populations were too reduced, indentured servants too expensive, so they took to slave trading and bringing the African slaves here.

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I mean before the founding of the colonies, but I think I'm mostly thinking of the New York area being the place where immigrants were coming through. That's why the Statue of Liberty is there, and why the Northeast U.S. is the most densely populated area of the U.S. to this day.

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First was Jamestown, but it too was a colony.

The New York Bay Harbour was by far the largest harbour on the east coast and the British were already familiar with it, which is why it was and remained a point of entry. Which is why, eventually, it became the biggest point of entry into the States, when immigration started in earnest. Which is why the Statue of Liberty was put there.

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Of course abolishing slavery would impact the whole country?
Didn't you learn about the 3/5 compromise?

Each state gets a certain number of congressmen based on that states POPULATION.
the south wanted all their slaves to count towards population, so that they'd get more congressmen per state. (basically they could control congress)
Taxes are also paid to the federal govt per person. The North wanted the southern states to pay taxes on all the slaves the same as any free person. the south didn't want the slaves to count as people for taxes, only for the number of congressmen.
so they agreed on a compromise that a slave would count as 3/5 of a person.

tldr: of course it affected the north! it affected every state int he union.

and ALSO

even if it didn't impact them directly, there are actually some people who care about the welfare of others besides themselves.
If you see an old lady getting mugged, that's not having any impact on you- it's not your money or your grandma...should you therefore just sit by and watch, and do nothing to help?

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I didn't say it wouldn't affect the whole country. What I meant, which I thought was obvious because I posted it so many times, is it wouldn't affect the North economically, as their economy was no longer dependent on using slaves. But the South's was.

I read about the 3/5 compromise, but not that the South had wanted slaves to count to increase their number of congressmen, and then *not* to count when they had to pay taxes per person. Nope, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

The thing is, the North HAD slaves for 200 years, when they needed them for labour. Even worse, they were the slave traders! It was they who brought their ships to Africa, filled them with human cargo, shackled and packed together like sardines, and sailed back to profit heavily from their "black gold." It was they who were responsible for creating the majority of the problem, so you'll forgive me if I have trouble swallowing it was all about caring about the welfare of others.

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Have you seen the latest Fox news item here? Check out that thread. Gone With The Wind screenings were taken out of a Memphis Theater. It seems that people are sensitive to the content of this classic.

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No, I haven't.

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It's right under this thread.

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James DeWolf of Bristol, Rhode Island (1764-1837) was a United States senator and a wealthy merchant who, at the time of his death, was reported to be the second richest person in the country.

He was also the leading slave trader in the history of the United States.

Over fifty years and three generations, from 1769 to 1820, James DeWolf and his extended family brought approximately 12,000 enslaved Africans across the Middle Passage, making the DeWolf family our nation’s most successful slave-trading family.


:/

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It makes sense to me that the first people to take up slavery en masse were also the first ones to turn against it. The time frames would match up logically, if one assumes a "general amount of time" it takes for generations to turn against slavery.

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But they weren't the first. Slavery existed throughout the colonies and, later, the states, simultaneously.

The difference is the North was no longer reliant on slave labour, while the South was.

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Then the southern area should have made a bigger effort to keep up with the American Revolution, instead of turning against the north with a civil war.

Failing to keep up with technology, whether that be mostly circumstance or mostly by choice, made them fall behind in terms of the moral evolution of the country.

It's crazy to me that, as old as civilization is, slavery in America was only being abolished like 150 years ago! I'm 40, I've been alive almost 1/3 of that entire time frame!!! Our modern morals are still in a relative infancy. It's no wonder we experience such strong racial hostility still.

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It wasn't a matter of not keeping up with technology, it was that the South was primarily agricultural, while the North wasn't suited for agriculture and eventually became industrial. A difference in the best uses of the lands and climates.

It wasn't like, as I was taught, Northerners had this moral high ground, while Southerns didn't. Northerners only stopped using their slaves because they no longer needed them.

What adds insult to injury is a great deal of the wealth that the North had was a result of slave trading to the South! Which, in turn, allowed them to industrialise.

Yeah, it is pretty crazy that it was only 150 years ago slavery was abolished in this country.

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Three things. Whiskey Rebellion after the US was founded. The Erie Canal which was as important to send food to NYC and the East Coast as it was to send settlers out West. Which is to say there was agriculture in the North but did not lend itself to large scale production and therefore slavery. The abolitionist movement of the 19th Century was an extension of rising religious fervor. Many people in the North did not own slaves out of principle due to their religious beliefs. Poor soils and textile based wealth was true of upper New England but not so much west of the Connecticut River and certainly not west of the Hudson and Delaware Rivers.

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Great, even more things to Google! I don't know about the Whiskey Rebellion so will have to look that up. Good point about the Erie Canal being a factor, as well as the abolitionist movement growing out of rising religious fervor. The last I'm going to have to Google about too, because I don't know why there was an increasing interest in religion during that point in time. … Do you?

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I've just read the Cliff Notes (i.e. Wikipedia) on the Whiskey Rebellion. It's an interesting piece of US history, but I don't get your tie-in with slavery and either the North or South.

For those who don't know about it either:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion

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I was responding to your statement about the North having very little agriculture. Further, that the North had a wide spread need for slaves going into the 19th Century. The North in fact had considerable agricultural resources which was crucial in fighting the Civil War as the Union troops were well fed for the most part. While the South obviously had agricultural land it was needed to create a trade base by selling cotton and tobacco to obtain arms to fight the North. The Confederate soldier led a far more miserable life in terms of malnourishment and made a war of attrition that much harder to undertake. Getting back to the Whiskey Rebellion in the 1790's it affected small farmers in Pennsylvania who had no need for slaves as these same farmers had family to work the small tracts of land they owned. There was an absolute cost to owning slaves as well as bearing children and these farmers could not manage both costs. It was far more important for these farmers to have heirs than slaves. However, their moral stances should not be underestimated or under chronicled.

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I'm having a great deal of trouble following you. The North did have little agriculture, and certainly compared to the South, although admittedly the South's main cash crops -- cotton, tobacco -- did little to help feed the Confederate soldiers.

The Whiskey Rebellion involved western PA and Kentucky -- both of which were part of the western expansion. The remaining 2/3rds of PA was part of the Union, yes, but Kentucky certainly never was.

The rest of your post supports what I said, that the North did not have a widespread need for slaves anymore, while the South did.

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The North had more agriculture than what you comprehend and that is the point. It was sufficient to feed the Union's population as well as the Union army. A great deal of food supply to the coastal region back before the Civil War came from areas along the Erie Canal in Upstate New York. My point about Pennsylvania was that it, too, produced food used in the Union effort and that any sympathies towards the Confederates by Western Pennsylvania did not reduce the state's effectiveness when acting with the Union.

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Then let me amend that to agriculture grown on a large enough scale as to have to depend on slaves, unlike the South.

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Here's some more very interesting info, that I hope will paste here okay with the formatting:

Contrary to popular belief:

Slavery was a northern institution:
The North held slaves for over two centuries
The North abolished slavery only just before the Civil War
The North dominated the slave trade
The North built its economy around slavery
The North industrialized with slave-picked cotton and the profits from slavery

Slavery was a national institution
Slavery was practiced by all thirteen colonies:
Slavery was enshrined in the U.S. Constitution and practiced by all thirteen original states
The slave trade was permitted by the federal government until 1808
Federal laws protected slavery and assisted slave owners in retrieving runaway slaves
The Union was deeply divided over slavery until the end of the Civil War

Slavery benefited middle-class families:
Slavery dominated the northern and southern economies during the colonial era and up to the Civil War
Ordinary people built ships, produced trade goods, and invested in shares of slave voyages
Workers in all regions benefited economically from slavery and slavery-related businesses
Consumers bought and benefited from lower prices on goods like coffee, sugar, tobacco, and cotton

Slavery benefited immigrant families:
Immigrants who arrived after the Civil War still benefited from slavery and its aftermath
Immigrants flocked to the “land of opportunity” made possible by the unpaid labor of enslaved people
Immigrants found routes to prosperity which were closed to the families of former slaves
Federal programs in the 20th century provided white families with aid for education, home ownership, and small businesses

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"The North abolished slavery only just before the Civil War"

The last Northern state to abolish slavery did so in 1804 (NJ). Just for accuracy's sake.

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Made it illegal, yes, but there were still a significant number of slaves in the North, right up to the Civil War (which is what that article should have said):

"For example, did you know that there were 451,021 slaves counted in the 1860 census in states and territories that would make up the Union during the Civil War? Twenty years earlier, in the 1840 census, there were 355,777 slaves counted and in 1850, 415,510. When you look at the census data, New England is the only region where slavery ends rather quickly. In other areas of the north and west, slavery continues until right up to the Civil War."

http://www.civildiscourse-historyblog.com/blog/2017/1/3/when-did-slavery-really-end-in-the-north

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Way too much generalizing in your statement above. An increasing amount of settlers after 1830 settled west of the Appalachian Mountains where there was little connection between their economic fortune and slavery. Even with clothing quite a few early settlers relied on buckskin or wool as sheep could be brought with them and was a renewable fiber source as the sheep regrew wool after sheering. Wool subsidies by the government were paid by the government into the 20th century to assure a source of fiber for the military.
A lot of discrimination happened in regards to federal social programs during the 20th Century but lets not imply the exclusion was in print to be enforced.

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Not my statement. As I said, I copy/pasted it. From here:

http://www.tracingcenter.org/resources/background/myths-about-slavery/

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Bottom line is, at least IMO, while the history is indeed fascinating, the fact is we probably don't need monuments, outside of museums and designated historical parks ( eg, Gettysburg) to those who supported treating human beings as a commodity to the point they felt a war for it was necessary.

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Except, Northerners supported treating human beings as a commodity too, and were responsible for a large part of the slave population in the South, because it was very profitable to them.

When their economy was no longer reliant on slave labour, they chose to gradually phase it out. Which was great of course, but they wanted the South to do it immediately, and not by choice.

I don't have any problem with memorials to the lives that were lost in the Civil War, on either side. I DO have a problem with things like that 1932 inscription touting white supremacy. Things like that are best removed and put into museums.

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I loved the movie 12 Years A Slave. It had a profound effect on me. It was through that film that I learned that it was a common practice for free black men in the North to be kidnapped and eventually forced into slavery in the South.

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I haven't seen it yet, although I've heard it's excellent. Just checked Netflix, too bad they don't have it.

Anyway, I didn't know that was common practice. Can you imagine what it must have been like to be freed, only to be kidnapped and sold into Southern slavery?

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It certainly happened and it had a significant impact on free blacks in the North but I question that any significant portion of the white population was employed in such unsavory practices. Not to say that many whites were as pure as fresh fallen snow but there was not a need for a wide network of spotters to engage in entrapment. Further, that abolitionists by the time that 12 Years a Slave takes place were a sizable portion of the Northern population and exerted their own force on those who would be otherwise indifferent to black suffering. I'll admit that reading about abolitionists while being in college was not the most interesting topic one can't really understand 19th Century America in terms of slavery and the Civil War without reading about them. And to fully understand abolitionists it helps to know about the religious and temperance movements of the same time period. In short it is a far larger and more accurate "universe" in discussing the US from that era.

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But notice I specified those who supported slavery to the point where they were willing to create a war over it; that doesn't constitute about 95% of those who actually fought, especially in the South. Most were far too poor to own slaves.

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Yes, I did notice that. However, no one forced the Northern states to stop using slaves when their economy needed them for cheap labour, plus the part slavery played in their economy when they were actually sailing to Africa to get the slaves, ship them back in horrific conditions, and profit from the sales.

The worst hit the North took was during the War of Independence, when the British, who primarily focused on the Northern colonies, freed all the Northern slaves they encountered if the slaves would join forces with them. (Which makes me wonder what became of all of those former slaves, as an aside.)

So the North already fought a war over it, and I'm quite certain that had the British tried to force the North to abolish slavery at the time, there would have been war as a result. Whether most could afford to have slaves or not.

What I'm really trying to say here is the Northerners were no better, no purer, than the Southerners. There were both terrible and good people north and south of the Mason/Dixon line, with most being somewhere in the middle.

I know I'm about to run out of characters, so will continue in another post.

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What I don't like is the North's having rewritten history, which is the history I learned in school (North good/South bad), while completely glossing over the fact that it was the North who were the slave traders, and held slaves themselves for two centuries!

Just take your damned responsibility in this travesty, and don't whitewash it. It's just as bad as Southerners' Lost Cause, wanting to rewrite history and turn the Confederacy side of things into a noble cause.

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'Destroying historical monuments and statues is just what Isis does. Don't be like them.'

sorry there is just no comparison between schlocky 20th century public statues, and priceless archeological treasures that are thousands of years old.
trying to compare those removing the confederate statues to Isis is just logically ridiculous.

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The south lost.

It's time to get over it, and let the union celebrate their rightful victory. The statues glorifying slave owners and slavery that show Africans in chains, or otherwise in submission to whites, are not appropriate, nor a worthwhile part of our history in any context.

Replace the statues with MLK, or events that celebrate positive aspects of our nation's history.

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The south did loose. I'd like to think that we are over that. We are one nation now.
Maybe we don't need statues and monuments in order to remind us of our history.
We don't want it whitewashed down through the years either. Sadly, that's true.
Terrible things did happen. We should always remember that and learn from it.
That is all that I am saying.

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I think the statues should stay up to remind us of the terrible things they did, I also think they should erect a statue of Charles Manson in Beverly Hills to remind the people of the things he did. and maybe one of Bernie Madoff right in the middle of Wall St.

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Depends on the specific monument, when it was erected, and the reason it was erected.

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"Depends on the specific monument, when it was erected, and the reason it was erected."

Yes.

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Having now done some research on this, your position is the most sensible.

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I agree with this view as well, fyi

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Yep, it makes the most sense.

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