MovieChat Forums > General Discussion > The cultural divergence of Europe/UK & t...

The cultural divergence of Europe/UK & the US


Given the generally miserable zenophobic, antisemitic roots of European development, though along with class consciousness and a strong Socialist/Social Democracy/Communist experience, it is interesting to me that post-war Europe seems so much more humane, these days, in comparison to the US, which was spared most of the disaster/destruction. Germany, for example, is virtually unrecognizable from the culture of a century ago. I've been there, saw it for myself.

Some might find that assessment of mine simplistic/facile/wrong-headed, but given my experiences living/working there, for short stints, and exposure to the general attitudes I pick up in European media/cinema, I mark a much greater instinct for tolerance/inclusion, a reticence to condemn, a sense of shared values/resources, than in my own country.

That said, its clear that immigrants do still face barriers, exclusion - I'm not saying its all peaches & cream, of course, but the general attitude seems less paranoid than here in the states.

If anyone would care to weigh in on this, esp. those who have experience in both cultures, I would be interested in their response. This might be tangentially political, but I'm more interested in what has changed the attitudinal warp of the two broad cultures, over the century, where I see the direction basically reversed - the US a century ago was a leading innovative progressive culture - now retrograde. With Europe/UK, the reverse.

reply

Nothing progressive about the U.S. in 1923.

reply

The context is over the last century, not specifically the 20s

Prior to the 20s there was a long progressive era, where a lot of actually big ideas got tossed around concerning the proper scope of the federal government & social policy, largely dispensed with in the war years and economic boom of the 20s. There was, throughout, a labor movement, woman's suffrage, popular votes for senators, in the midst of prohibition, reactionary racial policy. A mixed bag, to contrast w/ the rise of fascism, mortal combat between fascists/conservatives/social democrats/socialists/communists in Europe at the same time.

Then after, the new deal lasting thru the 60s into the era of civil rights reform.

There was progress during the last century, which has stalled out here in unfavorable contrast to societal/cultural/egalitarian advances in Europe - what I'm getting at.

reply

I’m from the USA but have lived in Spain and visit Europe as often as I can.

I've observed some of the cultural shifts you mentioned, notably that Europe and the USA have evolved differently since a century ago, with Europe seemingly emphasizing "tolerance/inclusion" more than the U.S. While I concur with some of your observations, the claim that the U.S. was unilaterally more progressive than Europe a century ago might require further nuance.

For instance, certain ideologies that fueled the Nazi regime, like eugenics and prison camps, originated in American thought and policy. Eugenics was “pioneered” by prisons in California, and the US had a dark history with the harsh treatment of Native Americans. Additionally, the U.S., one century ago, was grappling with significant social issues. The Jim Crow laws enforced racial segregation in the South, there were significant labor issues, and women were still fighting for their right to vote which they eventually achieved in 1920; later than many European countries like the UK, Norway, Denmark, etc.

In other words, while the U.S. did have progressive elements in the early 20th century, I’m not sure if it was categorically more progressive than Europe.

As for the modern perceptions of racism and inclusion, I noticed the same things you have; that on the surface, Europe appears to be more inclusive than the USA. However, what I’ve learned is that racism manifests differently in Europe than it does in the USA, and for outsiders it’s sometimes hard to see. For instance in Portugal I learned from African-Portuguese individuals that, although Portugal has decolonized, some ethnic Portuguese will still refer to Africans as "Portuguese," without mentioning Africa or the names of the African countries they are from. While this may seem inclusive and anti-racist to us in the USA, the African-Portuguese see it as the Portuguese attempting to still "own" their former colonies by erasing their African identity.

Ok, so although I’m unsure if the USA was ever actually more progressive than Europe in the past, I do 100% agree that in the modern era Europe is MUCH more humane and grounded in shared values/resources than the USA.

I think the reason the USA has fallen behind Europe is largely due to the founding of the USA being built on individualism. While the EU is still capitalist, they are much more collectivist than the USA. In other words; the current culture of the USA is the logical-end result of a country founded on an Anti-tax war that promoted rugged individualism.

The narrative that emerged from the American Revolution’s portrayal of King George III as a tyrant has played a large role in shaping American values & attitudes, especially those related to government, taxation, and individual liberties. These values & attitudes influence policy debates & decision-making to this day.

In 1772 England, the Somerset Case ruled that chattel slavery was unsupported by common law in England & Wales. This led to a degree of anxiety among American businessmen & slaveholders (English Heritage, 2022; Roberts, 2021). Their desire to maintain the institution of slavery was a significant factor in their decision to break from Britain, as emphasized in the U.S. Declaration of Independence where they accused King George III of inciting slave rebellions (1776). This desire to break away from England led to the monied interests & slaveholders creating an anti-tax propaganda campaign that painted King George as a Tyrant.
Indeed, to this day, the story of the American Revolution as taught in US schools places a strong emphasis on the idea of resistance to taxes & tyranny, a narrative that continues to shape Americans attitudes towards government, taxation, and public spending.

When you consider that American children are socialized to view the American Revolution as an anti-tax war against tyranny, & that over 55% of Americans view any public spending as “socialism” that “incentivizes laziness” (Pew, 2019) it makes sense that the USA would fall behind Europe in terms of a developing a more humane culture with a sense of shared values/resources, in other words, it’s embedded into the national framework of the country as “Unconstitutional” & “Tyrannical."

reply

Cool. I spent 6 months working in Galicia (near Lugo) working on automating a milk production plant. What an experience that was. One of the reasons I wish most or even all intelligent Americans could spend time in Europe is to just get a good look at a slightly different social order, to observe if nothing else that it seems to work just fine.

Yes, I agree with virtually all of that assessment. A first-rate historical breakdown in my view.

The aspects of America which I viewed as progressive were early adoption of public education, technological/industrial/productivity innovation, the rise of organized labor, the new deal, public works, infrastructure - much of which can easily be encompassed within the laissez-faire capitalist paradigm, as well, but some of which represented a pragmatism, an expansion of the social contract - which now is long since in decline.

In many ways, our libertarian & frontier & Evangelical/fundamentalist experience may be the poison pill of our development in the coming century - because we are now laggards, our foundational myths serving in no small measure to crowd out a creativity given freer reign elsewhere, less encumbered by paranoia, whereas in our nation the ever-ready resort of reactionary power centers. Our quality of life relative to the first world, in general, is certainly falling.

reply

I'll expand on VinceD's excellent response and your reply to him.

The American rich (conservative) have always had a disproportionate amount of power especially in the Antebellum South which was an oligarchy. There were practically no public schools, voting and political office reserved for the rich and tariffs were passed on the average folks to pay.

During the same era, the North had plenty of public schools, higher taxes paid fairly by everyone and voting and elections (for white males). It was the North that introduced public schools to the South for blacks AND whites during Reconstruction.

The New Deal and War on Poverty were liberal agendas which lifted millions out of poverty and into the middle-class. In the 1970s, the rich (and Conservative political party) attacked these programs, unions, fair wages, fair tax structure which reversed the progress. American Conservatives have always been farther to the right than their European counterparts, more pro-Big Business, anti-regular folks and use Divide & Conquer strategies like exploiting racial and class distinctions.

There has been a centuries-long conflict between two opposing visions for the U.S.. Visit a conservative state and compare to a liberal state for differences in social programs, legislation, infrastructure, lifestyle, etc..

"American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America" by Colin Woodard explains the regional cultural differences and why the conflict exists.

"Evil Geniuses: The Unmaking of America: A Recent History" by Kurt Andersen explains in details the strategies used to destroy progress.

reply

Brilliant response 👍

reply

I can't really add much to VinceD's excellent response, except to emphasise that some of these issues may be baked right into the US constitution and its form of government.

The USA is often thought of as a 'young country', which in many ways (culturally-speaking) is perfectly true. But if we measure 'country' in terms of a continuous constitution, it's false -- the USA is one of the oldest in the world.

With European civilisation in ruins after WWII, most of the continent went through a constitutional/governmental overhaul. The (West) German Constitution dates back to 1949. The Constitution of the Fifth Republic (France) dates back to 1958. Etc. Etc. And, of course, the values embedded into those constitutions -- and the entire European Project [EU] -- reflected the 'never again' attitudes of the post-war period.

Even the UK, which doesn't have a written constitution, has evolved in the last two hundred and fifty years. Do we believe the Founding Fathers of the USA would have been stridently anti-monarchist against a modern constitutional monarch as the ceremonial figurehead of a parliamentary democracy? I don't.

And the USA's constitution was, of course, designed by Enlightenment era, lawyerly minds to be rigid and promote legislative gridlock (against tyrannical government) and individual rights. Perfectly sensible -- brilliant, in fact -- at the time. But how well does it fit with the modern world?

It's more difficult for the USA to make significant changes at a federal level. And this continues to be reflected in the US's mainstream culture. There's a certain clinging to that document, as if it is the final word on 'progress' -- as if the 'new' USA constitution and the values it represents is the progress.

reply

Yes. You make a clear point that we have been taught to flatter ourselves, somewhat, as Europe perfected, or as a fait accompli. The 20th century European instability/ferment/conflict reinforce that view. Which you could call 'American Exceptionalism', or fortress America, or your could call hidebound carefully manipulated self-satisfied ignorance/arrogance.

As it turns out, Europe as a result of the final conflicts of the age of empire, in the midst of social movements never given much sway in the US, had a later, more comprehensive, indeed modern, chance to erect a social order on the back of two centuries more of experience/experimentation.

It should be noted that, even in the midst of cold war tensions & massive US influence, virtually none of the Europeans including Israel, adopted the US approach, all preferring some variant of parliamentary multi-party government, strong central government, early support for public healthcare, housing, subsidized university education, welfare.

During the depression & thru the 60s, in the prosperity & shared-sacrifice & optimism of the later new deal era, the US somewhat let loose & caught up. Ultimately, after things cooled down economically, the basic self-limiting structure of our power arrangement reasserted itself, as we revert to the laissez-faire mean.

reply

The USA is often thought of as a 'young country', which in many ways (culturally-speaking) is perfectly true. But if we measure 'country' in terms of a continuous constitution, it's false -- the USA is one of the oldest in the world.

That is GREAT point.

The U.S. Constitution was adopted in 1787 and has been in continuous operation since 1789. As you mentioned, many other countries, like France, have adopted, modified, or completely replaced their constitutions multiple times since then.

Which makes me wonder, 100 years from now, will Americans still to be clinging on to a 336 year old document and living as if they're still in the 1700's???

reply

the US a century ago was a leading innovative progressive culture

How so ?
Equal rights for blacks ? or women?
Banning alcohol? that was a radical move tbf

reply

nationalism is still strong in parts of europe. we see it in russia and the balkans. the belief in conspiracy theories is becoming more mainstream in america.

reply

Russia, though, has always been the special case - not actually European, just always on the edge, with a toe in. I would call it more Asiatic, despotic, atavistic - they have no sustained experience with representative government, which separates them from the continent fundamentally.

It does seem to be the case that their despotism is attractive to authoritarian elements in Europe/US. Their expert use of disinformation, asymmetric information warfare, has been an eye-opener.

reply