"it was becoming way too detrimental for my mental health to wear feminine clothing" - Elliot Page Discussion

[–] kukuxu (5409) 3 years ago

Be a bit sensitive. Being asked to wear a dress was a bit hit for her mental health. Indeed, it was such a hit for her mental health that she ended up thinking she was a dude. A few days more wearing feminine clothing, and she would have ended thinking she was a horse.

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

If you think that this is a sign of, or an affect of a mental illness (being a trans person), then why doesn’t anyone think that a treatment option for it is to actually transition (in whatever form be it just socially, medically, surgically etc)?

Why do people think (as I’ve seen on other threads for example) that the only thing to do to ‘treat’ a transgender person with their transgender notions (mental illness) is to sort them out somehow (therapy?), tell them it’s all a bad dream/idea/unnecessary etc and send them on their way..... to live the life of the person they don’t want to be?

Do you think it’s that easy? It’s that simple? Being a trans person, who is physically and mentally unable to cope with themselves, such a thing is just a ‘notion’ that can just be reversed or covered up like some gay conversion therapy?

If the level of gender and body dysmorphia is so strong that they are depressed, having panic and anxiety attacks etc etc and cannot continue in their daily lives, then the actual underlying cause of the problem is the very fact that they are a trans person, and therefore must be supported in a transition. The anxiety etc. can be treated with therapy or medication and surely should ease off because the person actually transitions (in whatever way needed for them to feel and be ‘happy’).

It always seems that some people just don’t believe that others can be so lost in themselves, in this way......and that it’s a real issue.

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[–] cyguration (3945) 3 years ago

If the level of gender and body dysmorphia is so strong that they are depressed, having panic and anxiety attacks etc etc and cannot continue in their daily lives, then the actual underlying cause of the problem is the very fact that they are a trans person, and therefore must be supported in a transition. The anxiety etc. can be treated with therapy or medication and surely should ease off because the person actually transitions (in whatever way needed for them to feel and be ‘happy’).

No it's not.

I can guarantee you 100% of time it has something to do with childhood trauma or abuse. Every single time you dig into these people's history you find out they were abused or suffered some kind of abuse that led them to that point.

Getting therapy would help with finding out the underlying issues. Normal people don't take on the delusion that they're trapped in the wrong body, because that's neurologically impossible for a human being, since the existential process of perceiving self is a post-natal development, ergo you physiologically CANNOT be born in the wrong body since you're not even cognizant of your body until you're able to perceive it, and that only happens AFTER you are born.

So somewhere between childhood and adulthood something set Ellen adrift psychologically, and she needs to get that sorted first. Transitioning and being patted on the back for physically ruining her body and feeding into delusions is not helping that person at all, that's why 42% of trans people commit suicide even after some of them transition (and oftentimes especially after they transition).

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

Are you a transgender person? Are you professionally involved with transgender people? Do you know all the trans people in the world?

No doubt some people may have suffered from trauma or abuse as a child AND no doubt some of these people have been influenced by this towards being trans. However I do not believe that you, nor anyone can categorically say (especially without any research) that 100% of trans people are trans directly as a result of childhood trauma or abuse.
That seems to be in the same league as thinking or stating that all trans people are paedophiles (as it appears some people think!).

I definitely agree that anyone who has had any experience that’s affected them psychologically should seek and get help to work through it.....as well as any detrimental affects said trauma’s having in their life since.

Suicide rates are higher in trans people, but it’s probably harder to assess and no accurate research into data (from death certificates for example) has been done yet, as far as I know.

I believe a lot of what may drive trans people to take their own lives is the stress they are under from external influences - lack of understanding, lack of support, abuse, harassment etc..
I’m sure many even find it hard to find medical professionals to help them:
shorturl.at/fkrKW
Surgery (if that’s what the trans person wants/needs) reduces the suicide risk:
shorturl.at/hwxBQ

I’ve read that suicide rates are actually reduced after transition (but whether this is 100% transition?).....
‘A survey of trans people in the UK found that a completed medical transition was shown to greatly reduce rates of suicidal ideation and attempts, in contrast to those at other stages of transition (imminently transitioning or beginning transition). 67% of transitioning people thought more about suicide before transitioning whereas only 3% thought about suicide more after their transition’
https://www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/transgender-people-suicide/

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

‘Normal people don't take on the delusion that they're trapped in the wrong body, because that's neurologically impossible for a human being, since the existential process of perceiving self is a post-natal development, ergo you physiologically CANNOT be born in the wrong body since you're not even cognizant of your body until you're able to perceive it, and that only happens AFTER you are born.’
I hear what you’re saying BUT.....to my knowledge, a transgender person is still born.....when they are self aware and become aware that they feel different to other people and can communicate their discomfort and gender dysphoria.....but it’s still probably been there since birth.....even if its ‘diagnosed’ at puberty or even in adulthood.
https://childmind.org/article/transgender-teens-gender-dysphoria/

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[–] cyguration (3945) 3 years ago

I hear what you’re saying BUT.....to my knowledge, a transgender person is still born.....when they are self aware and become aware that they feel different to other people and can communicate their discomfort and gender dysphoria.....but it’s still probably been there since birth.....even if its ‘diagnosed’ at puberty or even in adulthood.

You're not paying attention, you can't have these issues "since birth" because neurologically you haven't developed the cognitive functionality to PERCEIVE that you are in the wrong body until your senses have developed, since cognitively you cannot be influenced without stimuli; stimuli for humans come from somatic sensations, ergo, senses, ergo environmental stimuli.

This literally gives you a very basic 101 of how neurological cognition develops in human beings:
https://www.babycentre.co.uk/a1047257/understanding-your-babys-cognitive-development

The second paragraph makes it clear.

What you're spouting off is Left-wing propaganda used to brainwash ignorant people into believing anti-science agitprop.

I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm simply pointing out that you are 100% blatantly wrong in what you believe, not because I say so but because neurophysiology dictates it say via irrefutable science. That's simply how the human brain works, I can go into more detail about the development of cognition in human beings through the process of developmental neurotransmissions, but I tend to doubt you would understand it.

Also you're mistaken about post-op trans suicide rates, they monitored people who "felt" less suicidal, not actual suicide rates, which are still extremely high among post-op trans. Here's the actual data:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Short gist: more people commit suicide AFTER trans surgery.

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

I see my shortened links didn’t work, but no matter. I’m not here to keep batting random journals etc as back up for points that can be discussed until the cows come!
But FYI the last article you reference is from research done from 10 years ago, in one country and with a cohort studied up until 2003, as far as I can tell. Even suicidal ideation figures of 67% (pre transition) reduced to 3% (post transition) that shows a significant decrease means simply - if you’re not feeling suicidal, you’re less likely to kill yourself, which equals a good thing!

Many studies say the same thing - rates of completed suicide are difficult to ascertain for the trans population.

However, no matter what I say, people like yourself will always say I’m not paying attention, I’m wrong, I’m spouting left wing propaganda etc etc. and basically that I’m an idiot and either don’t understand scientific concepts or am ignorant of them.
FYI I have an honours degree in the biological sciences.

You’re getting bogged down in trying to win one over on that particular science front.
The point you seem to be missing is that the arguing over whether someone is born trans or not is irrelevant. What difference does that make to the actual trans person? Their daily lives, future, health, sanity etc will still be affected because they are trans. People who hold the view that any deviations from the ‘norm’ (be it trans, gay or whatever) would probably love the easy option of eugenics pre-birth in order to make everyone the same!
I’m more concerned with the acceptance, treatment and support trans people get from others and the outside world. It’s about understanding and empathy at the end of the day.

I feel sorry that you feel the need to reduce your language to personal attacks and name-calling to try get your point of view across. That is certainly not intellectual debate, cordial discussion or showing any common courtesy in conversation.

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[–] cyguration (3945) 3 years ago

The point you seem to be missing is that the arguing over whether someone is born trans or not is irrelevant.

WRONG. That makes all the difference in the world if someone believes they're born trans (which they can't be for the reasons named above). Because once you stop believing in a fairy tale and start addressing reality you can start to delineate means of resolve. Ergo, if you are not born trans then the ideological preference for affirmation of being the opposite sex happened between developmental years and the recognition of said preference. In short, it means something happened in the formative years to induce the stimuli for that thought process.

Honoring sophistry and misinformation won't result in solutions, utilizing sound scientific methods and logical deduction is how you find solutions. The process of elimination is the first step in reaching said solutions, not constantly adding fairy tales and mythologies to the equation.

People who hold the view that any deviations from the ‘norm’ (be it trans, gay or whatever) would probably love the easy option of eugenics pre-birth in order to make everyone the same!

This is something I never said nor brought up in the discussion. You did. I've always been of the mind that if an impetus led to an induced condition then an impetus can lead to reversing that condition. However, constantly ignoring basic neurophysiology and entertaining absurdities will only continue to obfuscate the problem and reduce any possibility of fixing the problem. But Leftists don't want the problem fixed, obviously.

I feel sorry that you feel the need to reduce your language to personal attacks and name-calling to try get your point of view across.

Your kind started that WAAAY before I even entered the discussion. It's been a decade of censorship for anyone who doesn't acknowledge or kowtow to Leftist degeneracy yet you call for cordiality and decorum?

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

Your kind?!
Wow.
There you go again.
I’m done here.

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[–] Pete314 (2523) 3 years ago

Because you are running out of - btw: lousy - arguments. We see.

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

I wasn’t talking to you, but if you’d like to discuss your non-lousy arguments and have a conversation on the topic, then let’s go ☺️
However....from the looks of this comment it’s not really a good start....

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[–] Pete314 (2523) 3 years ago

Your kind?!
Wow.
There you go again.
I’m done here.

Ever heard of displacement activity?

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

Yes I have, why?

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[–] Pete314 (2523) 3 years ago

Well done. Thanks.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

TBH I don't care if an adult wants to cut off their weewee or get one attached and call themselves something they are not, more power to you, but don't pretend it's healthy, normal, or ask me to support laws to make them a protected class.

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

I’m not asking anyone to do anything.
I just find it very sad that people continue to attack anyone that’s not the same as them, or that they class as ‘normal’.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

Nah, come on, that's being disingenuous. This discussion isn't happening in a vacuum. My state is one of many where there are debates raging about how we need to protect transgenders, allow children to change genders, allow boys who say they are girls into the girl's locker room, allow boys who say they are girls play women's sports.

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

I’m in no way being disingenuous!

I think there are lots of fine points that still need to be (and continue to be) discussed in a thoughtful and open way about transgender people and society, for example the whole thing about transgender women in female sport. I personally am not interested in sports so can’t say I’m au fait with it all, but realise that this is an issue.

I’m no expert in anything to do with transgenderism (indeed it is very complex and vast) but I do have an interest in it and I do think that the way people are treated is very important.

The way some people speak about transgenders on this board is absolutely abhorrent and shows a complete lack of empathy, awareness, education, humanity and frankly manners. Even if it’s done as trolling, it’s completely vile and unnecessary.

I’m only really ever trying to broaden people’s horizons; the whole point of discussions is to get people thinking about subjects from a different perspective and to share information, for example.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

People are reacting that way because they are being told how to think, act, and behave; and as I said it isn't happening in a vacuum. This isn't a matter of "be nice," it's a political movement toward identity/group rights replacing individual rights. It's also insulting to be lectured that gender is a spectrum or that gender means something other than biological sex, it doesn't and never has until the relative recent push to redefine the word. And when you try to discuss these issues in a serious way the reaction is defensive and vicious. A number of states have or tried to pass laws that would force students to use a locker room that matches their birth gender and the backlash is always the same -- bigots trying to ban or oppress transgenders. I have 2 daughters, I don't want "Timmy today, Tammy tomorrow," using the same locker room as my girls. They aren't comfortable using co-ed bathrooms that are relatively common in some states, let alone showering with boys. This is America, you go do what you want to do but freedom isn't anarchy.

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[–] Jinx (3166) 3 years ago

Was it ‘insulting’ to learn that Pluto was no longer considered a planet? Science discovers more and more and changes our world everyday. What we know about gender and womb development isn’t out to insult anyone, it just ‘IS’. I don’t know what ‘individual rights’ are being replaced but I’d be interested to find out.

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

I would think an individual right in the context of that particular reply would pertain to the right of a daughter (born/biologically female) to use a bathroom that only born biological females have access to.
I believe that an argument against shared facilities is that there will be an increase in sexual assault and rape.....because transgender women are sexual deviants obviously and a man would only ‘dress up’ like a woman or claim to be a female that day just to access the facility to abuse someone.
A rapist can walk into a female space, or even a public space now, any time to attack someone - no trans involvement. Anyone can attack anyone anywhere - again, without any trans involvement. Rapists don’t even have to be biologically born male (as in women can sexually assault people too).....men can assault men....and a man could assault a trans-man.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

Stick to the subject, if you can.

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

This is entirely relevant!

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

People are told what to think and how to act and behave all the time....laws, rules, society, the Government etc etc. and all of these evolve and change... and sometimes, if not all the time, at least someone or some portion of society will not be pleased. Even the sciences and ethics etc. evolve.

With reference to terms and specifically ‘gender’ versus ‘sex’, I’ll continue to provide others with information (not lecturing) on their official authorised difference/meanings (whether you accept it or not is your choice).
‘In 1964, Robert Stoller coined the term gender identity, which refers to an individual’s personal concept about their gender and how they feel inside. It is a deeply held internal sense of self and is typically self-identified. Gender identity differs from sexual identity and is not related to an individual’s sexual orientation’.
ONS U.K. government.
There were a lot of scientific advancements in that decade - is 1964 in your view part of the ‘relative recent push to redefine the word’?

How is this concept much different to other segregation/anti-segregation and the like ‘movements’ throughout history? At its core, surely they are all about trying to do what’s right for the majority by including the minority.

I’m sorry you and your daughters feel threatened by shared bathrooms. It’s obviously quite a new concept in your state and obviously initiates neophobia in some. I’m interested to know why people think this is going to create anarchy. What happens in states where co-Ed bathrooms are common-place?

I understand that not everyone will share the same views and that these views and reactions are very complex and personal, based on many things including upbringing, sense of self, life experience etc. I find when I share my view of tolerance I get anger, hate, literal insults and name called. I hardly get any serious discussion but receive defensiveness (natural reaction no doubt) and viciousness (immature).

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

"...at least someone or some portion of society will not be pleased."

And ...? What makes your teeny minority special that we should make them happy.

"...gender identity..."

Is not gender.

"...why people think this is going to create anarchy."

Freedom is not anarchy, we don't get to do anything we want.

"... when I share my view of tolerance I get anger, hate..."

Tolerance isn't liberalism. Tolerance is a trait of youth and temperament, not an ideology. You need to think deeper than "going along to get along," or jumping on a bandwagon.

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

“ "...at least someone or some portion of society will not be pleased."
And ...? What makes your teeny minority special that we should make them happy. “
That’s a very sad view. The best society should aim to make everyone as happy as possible but at least allow a relatively comfortable and tolerable environment. It should lift people up, protect them, support them etc… not put them down, hurt them and endanger them. There are many minorities and they should all be considered and not attacked by the majority.

“ "...gender identity..."
Is not gender “
I’m fed up of this argument. We disagree.

I used the term anarchy because it seemed that you were insinuating that allowing co-Ed bathrooms and transgenderism would somehow create anarchy….and a lot of intolerant people seem to be scared that anarchy will come if society supports transgenderism etc. Bizarre.
No, people shouldn’t do anything they want (which is a detriment to society and not moral etc) like murder….but for some individuals to be able to live better, is hardly going to impact on the rest of society in the same way.

“ "... when I share my view of tolerance I get anger, hate..."
Tolerance isn't liberalism. Tolerance is a trait of youth and temperament, not an ideology. You need to think deeper than "going along to get along," or jumping on a bandwagon “
Ok…I’m not even sure how you’re arguing this!
If tolerance is a silly notion for the young then fine, the older generation (maybe including yourself?) that are not accepting etc of trans people being more integrated within society are staid and intolerant. I’m not a light thinker, nor jumping on any bandwagon. I don’t know how many times I can encourage others to be more open and understanding….but obviously some people are not able to be empathic.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

Your arguments here are trending toward 'reductio ad absurdum' and that's probably my fault from making such a terse reply when I was short on time so I made a new reply but I will address a few points ... your first paragraph is taking the postmodernist point of view that everyone is either a victim or oppressor and using that to justify upending society. Is the idea that you are helping the underdogs while sticking it to the man?

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

Terribly sorry, I actually have a life!!
No, I’m not sticking it to any man…..woman…..or child….unless they are a complete a$$hole.

I don’t know what else I can say, or different ways to say anything on this subject that I think, what I believe, what I’ve experienced, what I know and what I’ve read.

Such a long term conversation/debate/discussion/argument is very tiresome for me.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

Your life didn't stop you from posting.
It wouldn't be tiring if you weren't making it up as you go.

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

Ok, now you’ve definitely made the decision for me - you are not worth talking to …… and I definitely cannot be bothered to explain why each of those two sentences above you’ve posted are inaccurate.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

LOL, what I expected. I'm sure others make all your decisions.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

chirp chirp

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

Longer, more thoughtful reply to your previous comment.

Fair point about being told what to think, I was explaing the anger, it doesn't have to be rational. Afterall, the idea that your "inner self" trumps biology or the rights of others is irrational. There is no inner self, that's a juvenile concept like following your heart, true love or destiny. Someone took the gramatical definition of gender and tried applying it to biology and I guarantee you it wasn't a biologist. Besides, gender identity and gender are 2 different things. Gender identity came from the discussion about gender roles in society, it has nothing to do with gender being a spectrum. Believing you are a person other than you are, is a mental illness, not an identity, and has nothing in common with segregation or civil rights or homosexuals. These points have been brought up again and again in this and many other forums and the replies sidestep them or make inproper analogies.

Also if my daughters don't want to share a locker room with boys I/they are transphobic? I realize you wrote neophobic but the implication is clear in context. That's a rationalization. The co-ed bathrooms I've seen were in small businesses like gas stations and tended to be larger with partitions so that people could use them without snooping. Co-ed bathrooms and locker rooms are not appropriate for high schools, nothing good is going to come from that. I played sports in HS, girls would not have enjoyed hanging out with a bunch of naked HS boys.

As for tolerance, it is a blessing of youth that usually fades with experience. I am a liberal, I believe our govt should treat everyone equally under the law. I believe that anyone should be allowed to marry, serve in the military, etc. But we don't upend society to accomodate the mentally ill, that isn't rational. Freedom isn't anarchy, society needs structure and norms.

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[–] ChipDouglas (1607) 3 years ago

It kind of goes back to when white people were told to think of black people as actual people rather than slaves.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

You are being indoctrinated to think of it that way. It's no accident that transgender, race, homosexuality, are all being lumped together by postmodernists despite having nothing in common.

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[–] ChipDouglas (1607) 3 years ago

Just like people were indoctrinated into thinking black people were meant to be slaves

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

What people? Americans fought a war against the Confederacy to end slavery because it was wrong. Why would you condemn a society that fought to end slavery? Propagandists make tidy little groups like "white people" but in reality that group is made of hundreds (conservatively) or thousands (as often defined) of cultures, most of which had nothing to do with slavery. When you buy into that kind of thinking you are making enemies out of allies.

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[–] ChipDouglas (1607) 3 years ago

The people in the south considered there to be nothing wrong with slavery and that Africans were biologically inferior. Society was indoctrinated into thinking that was true. That is the comparison I am making.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

That's a huge leap from slave owners in the south to "society," but that kind of thinking requires huge leaps.

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

Why is it being indoctrinated? By whom?

There are similarities between race, transgender and homosexuality, for example - these people have all been victimised, sidelined, minoritised etc etc. or been deemed lesser people, and not the societal ‘norm’ and so without equality.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

By postmodernists.
You are lumping dissimilar things into one group and defining them as victims while seeing everyone else as the oppressor, the inevitable line of thinking is that you need to upend society and overthrow the establishment to make things equal for everyone. So what does victory look like to you? Literally, in the every day world as you walk down the street, shop, work, what does your new vision of the world look like?

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

I don’t have any new vision.
All I have - and will continue - to want is wider acceptance, or if not tolerance, without the widespread, uneducated, unnecessary sh*t that ANYONE has to go through to be themselves.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

Exactly, you have no vision, you don't know what you want, only that you want. It's because you've been manipulated into "wanting" and haven't considered the agenda behind those manipulating you. How can you achieve anything if there is no clear goal, no definition of success? Obviously you can't.

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

I’ve said what I want above….which in turn does provide some definition of success and goal ……so, erm….?
Obviously you can’t….read?

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[–] McQualude (4231) 3 years ago

LOL, weak.

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

I do think that the hatred for anything other than what society at large deem ‘the norm’ and the neophobia that some people have is rife today and has been throughout history is part of what we are as a species……and that it’s the same fear that drives the hate of all the intolerable atrocities of racism, terrorism etc.
I’m sure people will beg to differ, but I don’t see how it’s any different.

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[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

He's become more powerful than you could ever imagine

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[–] ProgsReturn (1863) 3 years ago

For someone who's chosen profession involves putting on a lot of different clothes without a choice, this is odd. Especially for someone whose most famous role was dressing up as a pregnant teenager. Having read the article tho, I'd blow my lid too if i couldn't choose what to wear at a press conference.

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[–] OratiaGlake (1244) 3 years ago

I think there can be a lot of stress at press conferences for anyone, so any extraneous factors wouldn’t help.

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[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

Doing press conferences to promote a movie is just as much a part of the job as dressing up and performing in front of the camera. If she is so unstable she can't handle the press conference she should never had gone into acting.

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[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

He was a closet lumberjack. See the picture!

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[–] johnmiller (3605) 3 years ago

Never thought of Page as female anyway...

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[–] [deleted] 3 years ago

It takes a full out denier to ignore the mental problems in someone when they breakdown over what clothes someone has them wear. I imagine if this was normal we would see the heads of millions of babies and toddlers explode each day as their insensitive parents dared to dress them in the wrong clothes. A person without a mental problem could wear a dress, a tuxedo or a clown suit and not have a breakdown.

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