MovieChat Forums > They Died with Their Boots On (1942) Discussion > The uncomfortable truth about Custer

The uncomfortable truth about Custer


From Past Imperfect: History According to the Movies.

Despite his miserable record at West Point, the real-life Custer quickly became a Civil War hero and, at 23, the youngest general in the U.S. Army. After the Civil War, however, there emerged a different Custer, one entirely ignored by the movie. Although still in the army, he was now a postwar lt. colonel who was cruel to his men and hated by many of them. Sent first to Texas to cope with former secessionists and then to Kansas to fight Indians, he became a controversial figure who seemingly thirsted for the fame and glory that had vanished with the end of the Civil War.

It is at this point that the movie runs completely amok historically, turning into a cock-and-bull melodrama. The shift is signaled in the film when Custer takes to drink to soothe his let-down feeling after Appomatox. (The truth: After an 1862 binge when he made a humiliating spectacle of himself on the streets of Monroe, Michigan, Custer swore that he would never take another drink in his life, and he never did.) Skipping the reality -- Custer's duty in Texas, his frustrating campaigns against Indians in Kansas, his court-martial and reinstatement, his massacre of Cheyenne families at the Wash-1ta [IMDb bot is censoring the correct spelling]http://www.nps.gov/waba/index.htm
and his confrontations with the Sioux while guarding Northern Pacific Railroad surveyors in the Yellowstone Valley - the picture has Libbie, with the help of Sheridan, snapping Custer out of his alcoholic gloom by getting him back on active duty...

On his way to Fort Lincoln, the film Custer and his entourage are attacked by Sioux, led by a goofy-looking, goofy-talking Chief Crazy Horse (in reali life, even today, perhaps the most revered patriot of the western Sioux.) After being captured and then escaping, the ersatz Crazy Horse (Anthony Quinn in an atrocious wig) sues for peace, and in a fictitious meeting with Custer (Crazy Horse never parleyed with whites) the chief announces that the Indians will give up all their lands to the whites (!) except the sacred Black Hills, which the united tribes will defend to the death. Seeing the folly of risking a disastrous war, the film Custer now suddenly becomes a noble friend of the Indians, promising to protect teh Black Hills for the Sioux.

Of course, he fails. Evil developers who want to open up the Black Hills spread rumor that start a gold rush (in truth, the gold rush was started by Custer himself), and the Indians prepare to fight. The film Custer, meanwhile, strikes one of the villains and is ordered to Washington.... Custer finally persuades Grant to send him back to the Seventh Cavalry....

In an egregious final scene, Libbie visits General Sheridan and reads him a letter left by the fallen Custer, demanding that the government "make good its promise to Chief Crazy Horse. The Indians must be protected in their right to an existence in their own country." Sheridan, the man who in real life was purported to have said, "The only good Indian is a dead one," replies solemly to Libbie that he has the promise of the Grant administration... that Custer's demand will be carried out. "Come, my dear," he says in the film's most incongruous and shamelessly fraudulent line, "your soldier won his last fight after all."

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Thanks for posting this. It's always interesting to read up a bit after seeing an historical film on a subject one does not know enough about to tell truth from fiction. I suspected this of twisting the facts a bit... Is there any other film about Custer you'd rather recommend?



Is this stuff sterile? I want to kill him, not some secondary infection.

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It's not about twisting the facts a bit, or even a great deal, as the lengthy IMDb goofs list for this movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0034277/goofs) will demonstrate. Rather it's about concocting an American mythology to glorify white manhood, to provide moral justification for Manifest Destiny, and to expunge a nation's sense of bloodguilt.

Is there any other film about Custer you'd rather recommend?


I haven't seen it, but the best one so far appears to be Son of the Morning Star.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102962/

A really great feature film about Little Bighorn has yet to be made.

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Well, some goofs are just nitpicking, but I see thay hadn't excactly done their homework, regarding historical facts... I think I'm going to check out Son of the Morning Star, Custer seems like an interesting man.



Is this stuff sterile? I want to kill him, not some secondary infection.

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Interesting indeed. Custer was his own mythologizer, his own man and legend, well before his death set off a frenzy of myth-making in the press. But I do think books are your best bet.

This one is a real page turner:

Philbrick, Nathaniel. The Last Stand. Custer, Sitting Bull, and the Battle of the Little Bighorn. 2010

Richard Slotkin's The Fatal Environment is far more academic and analytical but absolutely riveting for its explanation of how Custer became the "perfect hero" for the industrial-era frontier. It's hard to make sense of Custer's life and legend without plenty of context.

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"... and to expunge a nation's sense of bloodguilt."

"Bloodguilt"? Hmmm . . . from whom else have I heard such terms? Ahh yes -- Adolph Hitler.

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Bloodguilt"? Hmmm . . . from whom else have I heard such terms? Ahh yes -- Adolph Hitler.

Maybe if you spent less time reading Hitler and more time reading the Bible you'd encounter the term more often. ^__^

Unfortunately for your argument, my post had nothing to do with Sippenhaft and everything to do with collective guilt, i.e. the remorse that is felt when one's group has illegitimately harmed another group and not repaired the damage done. Sippenhaft, an entirely different matter involving kin liability, was just the sort of collective punishment that Jeremiah condemns way back in the 6th century B.C.E. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread.

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"... my post had nothing to do with "Sippenhaft" and everything to do with collective guilt ..."

Your post had "everything" to do with "Sippenhaft" -- including the punishment.
"collective guilt" is, and always has been, the "predicate" for collective punishment. If you accept (as you apparently do, and as did Hitler) the reality of collective guilt (I do not - thus the point of my very economical post), there is no point in pointing it out, UNLESS there's to be some remedial (collective) action (punishment) to follow, is there? I trust Hitler's was a different "kind" of punishment than that which you might advocate today. Good for you! Nevertheless, there's little difference between what you're claiming and "Sippenhaft" -- despite the almost clever sophistry of your last post.

(Btw, what's the difference between "kin liability" and "collective guilt"?)

In any case, I'll stick with my perceptions of your attitudes about race and racial guilt - reject them (and Hitler's) - and line up, instead, with Jeremiah and James Madison. . . Okay?

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"Custer quickly became a Civil War hero and, at 23, the youngest general in the U.S. Army."

It should be noted that Custer never claimd to be the youngest general in US history. The idea that he was the youngest general in US history is inaccurate, though he came quite close.

The story may have been started by biographers reading his letter home after his promotion saying that he was "now the youngest general in this army" Of course that meant that he was at that time the youngest general in either the entire Union army or else in the Army of the Potomac. Custer did not claim that there had never been a younger American general nor did he claim that there would never be a younger American general in the future.

But uncritical repitition of his statement could easily lead in time to the idea that he was the youngest US general ever.

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The youngest general officer in the Union Army was Galusha Pennypacker (look it up).

"It's a hard country, kid."

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But their is considerable controversy about Pennypacker's age. It is possible that he was born a few years earlier than he later claimed. Which would make him not the youngest general in the war but one of perhaps the youngest five.

If not Pennypacker, the youngest Union general would appear to be Charles Cleveland Dodge aged 21, if I remember correctly.

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Interesting points! I'll have to look up some information on Dodge. Thanks!

"It's a hard country, kid."

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You're welcome.

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Custer, Pennypacker and Dodge may have each at one time or another while in their early 20s been the youngest Union general in the Civil War, but by far the youngest general officer in the history of the US Army and its predecessor organizations was Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette, 19 when commissioned a major general by General George Washington.

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I'll have to look up some information on Dodge.


Great, now all we need is a couple of Officers named Duck & Hyde & we'll have a three stooges episode.




Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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[deleted]

Thanks, bluesdoctor. When did it become the standard to judge every film a documentary, and compare it to harsh reality? Suspension of disbelief seems to be depessingly obsolete...

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Custer was perhaps the greatest hero of the Civil War and one of the few Indian fighters who successfully engaged the enemy (though today we would call it genocide probably). Some have suggested that he was going to be the Democrats' candidate for President if he had defeated Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull. He was almost prevented from joining the battle by President Grant, after going to Washington to testify against corruption in the Army.

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Thank.Crazy Horse.and Sitting Bull for perhaps saving their country from a lot of trouble!

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Custer may have saved the Union in the Civil War. He was given the table that Lee signed the surrender on in gratitude, and led the victory parade in the capitol. His defeat of JEB Stuart at Gettysburg prevented the Union from being outflanked and led to the defeat of Picketts charge. Custer also blocked Lee's retreat at Appomattox. He led many successful cavalry charges in more than a dozen battles, and was never wounded despite having 11 horses shot out from under him.

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The thing I liked about Custer --- Whatever rank he had HE led from the front

Many Officers, even now, do not

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