Plot Holes


Plot holes are not meant to bash fans of the movie. No movie is immune to them. Whether it be a digital watch on an actors wrist for one scene in a western or Luke Skywalker screaming, "Carrie" at Princess leah.
This said, ever notice how this room that Redford sneaks in to with the motion detectors has a fishtank in it, all lit up. Would the shadows of the swimming fish (which were moving faster than Redford) trigger the detectors?

"I never say 'I told you so' and I don't like anyone who does"

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Aren't the fish in water and the tank isn't moving.

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[deleted]

lol,dbag users like this that act like this wasn't specifically addressed in the comment are part of what I miss about IMDB.

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Shadows?

No, no, no. Motion detectors can work in 2 ways.

Way # 1: Using non-audible ultrasonic sound. Basically the motion sensor sends out ultrasonic sounds throughout the room and listens for the echo. So let's say that in a 10x10 room it takes 5 mniseconds for the echo to come back. Now when somebody walks into the room they, solely through their presense, are altering the topology of the room. In other words the sound waves now bounce off them as well and the sound echo comes back to the sensor not in 5 miniseconds but in 4. Thus the detector notices that something new has been introduced into the room and rings an alarm.

This type of motion detector wouldn't have noticed the fish due to the fact that the sound waves would've bounced off the glass fish tank before.

Way # 2: They detect infrared light. More specifically they can detect infrared light in the 8 - 12 micrometers. This is due to the fact that the human body radiates infrared light in the 9-10 micrometer range.

So none of these motion detector methods would detect fish inside the fish tank.

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Every time I think about a detail of Sneakers like this, I'm amazed by how watertight the plot is.

To cement your point even further, leoz: Whistler exclaims the following, when aurally discovering Cosmo's office -- via Mother's directional microphone pointed at the nefarious Playtronics building:

"Oh, [that room] is bursting with ultrasonic! I've never heard sensors that powerful before. Bish, someone is very serious about keeping people out of that room."

I always enjoyed the implication that Whistler can actually hear ultrasonic frequencies. This extraordinary fact seems to slip by most people. :)

Note that during the first meeting between Dick Gordon, Wallace, and Marty in the Sneakers' conference room (which is presumably soundproof), we are introduced to each member of the Sneakers, oblivious to the conversation regarding their identities... except Whistler, who perks up briefly, smugly -- to imply that he hears his name being discussed through a supposedly soundproof barrier. :)

--
Manfrenjensenton

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i wouldnt say watertight... just off the top of my head:
when they were playing with the box and accessing secure places, encryption wouldnt have been the only security measure - theyd still have users and passwords.

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By watertight, I meant that all the plot threads line up, and that no twist or setup is thoughtlessly left dangling due to carelessness or ignorance on the part of the writers, producers, and director. Sneakers is as close to a watertight caper as you're ever going to get. The sheer number of plot threads and twists, combined with the producers' ability to resolve them close to 100%, makes this great movie even better. Many may ponder parts of it when they become material to our professional lives, and it's remarkable how the movie sticks with you -- especially in regard to how well it was thought through.

What *you're* referring to is how a movie can adhere to real-world factual issues. No film can be 100% accurate to real life and still be entertaining. Real life is boring, that's why we go to the movies. For suspension of disbelief.

In the real world, you'd be exactly right. The first quibble, or "nitpick" that most knowledgeable people have about Sneakers is that once encryption is explained, it's as if other forms of system security, primarily authentication by password, smart card, etc. aren't addressed. (If you absolutely must be a purist, these things are easy to justify: Just imagine that Carl had the passwords already, that they were really easy (which is often the case in the real world), or that the Sneakers only accessed parts of the target systems that were not protected by password. These plot points are all possible, though weak, which is why I believe the issue was left unexplained.)

You'll be glad to know that several college courses on systems design have used Sneakers as an example of systems security. I know of more than one teacher who have quizzed their students with this question: "In the real world, what other systems security measures would the Sneakers be likely to face, besides cryptography?"

An editorial decision was made to focus the audience's attention on encryption, and the more thrilling what-if scenario of the Ultimate Decryption Device. Let's face it, it's much more intriguing and appealing on the movie's scale that the black box is a mathematical breakthrough, than if the device had the capability of, say, guessing passwords. Then us techies would all be crying "what about encryption"? :)


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Manfrenjensenton

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a good point and well made! I cant think of any plot lines that wernt tied up.... must go watch again to check :)

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No realy a Plot Hole, but, in Cosmo´s office, when you have to move as fast as you can but not exceed 2 inches per second, why use a human to do the job? Why not a small robot? Much more eficient!

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A robot that's 98.6 degrees? What about servo motors or cooling parts? How about the tires or treading? How would the response to thermal differentials be beaten?


Besides...the best.. THE BEST throw away line in the movie would be lost:

"Martin.. I think you'd better hurry."
(musical whim)
"(groan).. The one thing I *can't* do is hurry!"

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A samll robot could easily be completely wraped in neoprene (as suggested by Dan "Mother" Aykroyd). That way the room temperature did not have to be risen at all (most parts of a robot are always at room temperature). Plus, neoprene also provides a very good sound insolation.

I agree with you about "THE BEST throw away line in the movie" thou. :-)

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At the beginning of the movie, Cosmo has no accent. At the end of the movie, he has an accent: "it's all about the information, Mah tee." Did he develope that accent in Prison? This threw me for a loop.

Otherwise, pure brilliance.

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Yeah, the casting must have been difficult for College-Aged Cosmo. He's definitely not South African like our good friend Mr. Kingsley. I noticed an effort on his part, like he's trying to remember to say "Mah-tee" instead of "Marty". Doesn't ruin it for me, but it's definitely an underside of a drawer that went unsanded. (Special Ed. DVD owners should understand that. :)

I think what casts the biggest pall on the lesser-quality Cosmo is, ironically, the impeccable choice of casting for the young Redford.

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Manfrenjensenton

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Ben Kingsley is not South African either.
http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0001426/bio
His ancestry is quite diverse, but there's nothing in him from SA.
But I agree with you that the younger Cosmo doesn't ruin the movie. Just a bit of a down-side.

Alexis

"Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
-Data

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Where would they have gotten this small robot? When would they have time to have it manufactured? I doubt you can go to Robots 'R' Us and pick one up off the shelf!

They plain didn't have time to get a custom item like this built.

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Where would they get get a robot ? Are you kidding ? They were able to come up with all kinds of electronic devices at the drop of a hat. I don't think finding a sufficient radio-controlled robot would have been too difficult for them.

I would have even accepted the idea that they already owned one.

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Where do they get this robot? You can't exactly run out to Radio Shack and buy one, and Robots 'R' Us isn't in business yet. What would this robot have to do?

1. Be radio controlled.
2. Be able to traverse the room
3. Be able to extend something to pick up the box
4. Stow said box
5. Somehow extend the box up to the vent.

This would be a very specialized machine, needing to be custom made. The one thing the Sneakers crew didn't have was TIME.

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It would be very difficult to keep a room precisely the same temperature for any length of time.

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Why would having a robot be 98.6 degrees be hard? They operate in Iraq at 120 degrees and in Wisconsin at 20. So long as you don't plan on running it for 100,000 miles or at 500mph, you don't really need "cooling" or whatever, and if there are any parts which have higher momentary temperatures, well you shield them and dissipate the heat over a wider area - much like the stealth fighters do with their hot jet exhausts.

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It only had to be 98.6 BECAUSE they used a human. It would have been kind of hard to get Martin's body temperature down to 72 degrees.

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by Manfrenjensenton
I always enjoyed the implication that Whistler can actually hear ultrasonic frequencies. This extraordinary fact seems to slip by most people. :)

it's pretty easy to down-convert ultra-sound to sound

by cherns-2
A previous poster mentioned that ultrasonic sensors operated at 40 kHz or so. I'm sure that this is true for most of them. There was a period in the seventies and eighties or so when I would walk into certain stores and feel that I was being hit on the head through my ears. I would complain to the management and would be told that the stores indeed had ultrasonic motion detectors, but that they were turned off. Well, I can believe that the alarms were turned off, but my ears told me unquestionably that the ultrasonic sensors were still on.


Mosquito effect (teens can hear a lot higher frequencies than older people).

...
Reality is a nice place to visit, but i wouldn't want to live there

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Well, that, and then there's also the fact that none of those systems work in the way they depict them to.

Honestly, I didn't enjoy the movie. It was wholly unrealistic, almost like a comic book.

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That's where I lost interest in the film. Major technical flaws take me right out of a movie. Ultrasonic sensors typically run at 40KHz. Also the point where they increase the room temurature to 98.6 degrees to mask the heat sensors. There is a liquid-cooled Cray 2 supercomputer in the room, and won't get to 98.6 degrees, thus causing a differential reading, and an alarm.

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Major technical flaws take me right out of a movie.

I couldn't agree with you more. But I can correct a few of your quibbles.

Ultrasonic sensors typically run at 40KHz.

So what? Do you take issue with Whistler's ability to hear them? In the real world, it's a well-known fact that blind people develop their other senses to sharper degrees. But this isn't even the real world. You, a real person, have hearing that tops out at 15-20KHz. Whistler is a fictional person, and his doesn't. It's a clever plot point that he can hear the sensors. It's even relatively plausible as movie conventions go. Be entertained or don't.

There is a liquid-cooled Cray 2 supercomputer in the room, and won't get to 98.6 degrees, thus causing a differential reading, and an alarm

Let me get to this on several fronts:

(1) The Cray in Sneakers is supposed to be a Cray Y-MP or X-MP, not a Cray 2. It's probably a mockup, albeit a good one. One giveaway is that the tower has 3 tiers, while every Cray I've seen only has 2. In my quick estimation, having staff carpenters mock up a realistic, iconic-looking Cray would be cheaper and easier than A) finding a real one that matches the Cosmo set visually, B) moving it into the right position, C) building a room around it, and D) set-dressing it. Notice how the "Cray" -- now in quotes -- seamlessly fits with the tiles in the raised floor, as if the room were designed for this giant. Why bring The Mountain to Moses when you can build The Mountain to spec? Finally, there is no "donated by" credit for the Cray in the film's credits.

(2) Every Cray was indeed built to be internally cooled by air or water. But this is irrelevant at any rate, vis-a-vis:

(3) The eye-pleasing Cray is not "in the room", which is to say it is isolated from Cosmo's office where the sensors are located. Anyone willing to spend $10 Million on a supercomputer is going to have it isolated in a thermally-controlled room. The "machine room" is temperature-controlled at a constant between 55 and 62 degrees, 24 hours a day, to extend the life of the equipment. Notice how Cosmo goes into the machine room to speak privately with Bishop without being overheard? When he enters, he stops whispering and resumes a normal tone. Why is that? The machine room is acoustically isolated, which indicates it is almost certainly thermally isolated as well.

Narrative and visual comprehensibility win over technical accuracy in movies. That's the difference between entertainment and reality. What fans of Sneakers can appreciate is that the filmmakers spent many years making it a standout with regard to technical accuracy. No film can ever be completely accurate. If you want accuracy, read a textbook. (And even then there are bound to be some dicey bits.)

This applies to all movies. Pick a movie you consider to be the most accurate. Guess what? There are scores of flaws in it. Maybe the filmmakers made the same level of effort as Robinson, Lasker, and Parkes; maybe they didn't.

Don't want to be disappointed when watching films? Don't watch movies that are in your wheelhouse of knowledge.

--
Manfrenjensenton

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[deleted]

The problem is not actually Whistler hearing the ultrasonic noise from the motion sensors. In the scene where he says "It's bursting with ultrasound", he's wearing a pair of commercial headphones and listening to the output from a commercial microphone. They are really good headphones (I've owned a pair), but the headphones are not manufactured that reproduce sound above 20kHz. Headphones and microphone specially modded by the amazing Sneakers crew? I guess so. . .

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Well I think the fact the Cosmo has the 'black box' wired up to make the change to Martin Bishops file when he is first bought there and then unwires it and puts it back into the tape recorder case and leaves it on his desk, for Martins mob to steal, a little strange.

Most normal people surely would leave it wired up in their system? Would they not.

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Perhaps Cosmo planned on moving it or like a great DVD or movie collection wished to keep it protected and free of dust/damage.

It is also entirely possible that since Cosmo took the device "to protect the organization?" "...yes." "No, I *don't* buy it!" ---for his own motives he may have wished to keep it hidden from mob eyes'. Perhaps even feign the fact that it didn't work and he would take it back to his place to work on it.



Loved those metallic artwork pieces of the men in Cosmo's room.

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So you are the driver of the limousine of the russian cultural atachee.

You boss tells you to stop the car. Someone then kills your boss on the
back seat. What do you do?

A) Start the engine and speed up
B) Opens the dor and run away ON FOOT.

OK, OK! Not a Plot Hole again... just stupidity of the driver ;-)

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I've always wondered this too. Diplomatic limousines are generally bulletproof, so what was to stop him from turning on the ignition and flooring it?!

I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd.

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Whistler asks Martin about what he heard when he was in the trunk . Martin says "NO tunnel". But where were they when Greg and his driver were shot?

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That was when they were trying to determine which bridge they went over. Whistler asked him if he went through a tunnel in the middle, meaning the Bay Bridge. If it had been the Bay Bridge and the tunnel of it was where Greg was shot, Bishop would have been out of the trunk for the first half of it, so he would have known already which bridge it was.

I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd.

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i am not american and I do not know San Francisco, so pardon my ignorance. Do you mean that this Bay Bridge have a tunnel in the middle of it? A bridge AND a tunnel at the same time?

If not, then the hole logic of discarding the Bay Bridge because of the absence of a tunnel is wrong. We know that there WAS a tunnel somewere BEFORE the bridge.

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Yes the Bay Bridge has a tunnel in the middle of it. The bridge, officially called the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge, links San Francisco to Oakland and the rest of the East Bay across the water of the San Francisco Bay. The bridge has a tunnel in the middle because the bridge actually has two segments which join together at an island called Yerba Buena Island in the middle of the bay, and the roadway travels through a tunnel when going through the island segment. It may not be as famous as the Golden Gate Bridge but it is by far the most important bridge in the SF area. For better description check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco-Oakland_Bay_Bridge

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OK! Thanks! Then I guess this is MY PLOT HOLE not the movie PLOT HOLE.

;-)

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One thing that has confused me: after Marty steals the box from Cosmo's office, he returns to the ceiling vent that he dropped down from. Maybe I'm just out of shape, but it would be quite difficult for someone to jump to an eight or ten foot ceiling vent from a three-foot corner of a room. Especially for an "aging" con artist.

Did this ever occur to anyone?

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Ahh, you didn't notice his 'springy shoes' then.


The Limo driver running away on foot was the plot hole for me.
Like other people have mentioned here, why didn't he just floor it?

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You want plot holes? Try this one. What is the point of Cosmo having 3 people murdered, kidnapping Marty only to tell him what his plans are and then give him a lift to his front door?
Answer 1. He gives his friend a break and allows him to live.

Answer 2. He knows if he kills him the film is over.
If the Limo driver gets away, then he is a witness to the fact that Marty DIDN'T kill Gregg. It's sloppy but hey...I didn't write it!!

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What about the biggest plot hole of them all? Why, after they steal the box back, are they suddenly acting like they're safe? I mean, what about the whole:

Mother: "He's lying!"
Whistler: "Hang up, Bish.
Mother: "He's lying!"
Whistler: "Hang up, Bish!"

scene.

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from "leoz01"
"What about the biggest plot hole of them all? Why, after they steal the box back, are they suddenly acting like they're safe? I mean, what about the whole:

Mother: "He's lying!"
Whistler: "Hang up, Bish.
Mother: "He's lying!"
Whistler: "Hang up, Bish!"

Oh come on! Remember...the Black Box is a MAJOR POWER.

Pay attention:

"There's gotta be a way to cut a deal with those guys." MOTHER
"Too late! If we had the box *yes*. Without it?*No*" CREASE

Mr. Abbot feared nothing from Bishop and his team when they were bargining with speculation and scattered intelligence. They had NOTHING to offer except they've been accessories to espionage and MURDER.

-------HOWEVER----- -with the box...everything changes.

With the black box they had ACCESS to everything from Whitehouse mail, to NSA mainframe, FBI ACCESS, NSA payroll, the power to start a Congressional hearings, NEWSWEEK HQ, and more!

In effect Abbot and virtually anyone would be their bitch. Furthermore they, presumably, would call back the NSA and say they had the box and only turn it in with the guarantees of safety---they had *the* single biggest bargaining chip they needed. They could negotiate with that thing. However, Bishop could have cleared his own record with that thing.

“I don’t have much choice do I?” NSA Chief Bernard Abbot
“Not unless you want to read about it in Newsweek.” Bishop/Brice

Bishop and his team, since they NSA doesn’t kill people, could have gone to the nation’s media. Congressional hearings, prison terms, treason, and worse. Abbot and his team would all go to prison, their gov’t paychecks over. BLACK BOX=POWER=HAVING IT mean you can relax---at least a little.

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So you are the driver of the limousine of the russian cultural atachee
You boss tells you to stop the car. Someone then kills your boss on th back seat. What do you do?

A) Start the engine and speed up
B) Opens the dor and run away ON FOOT.

OK, OK! Not a Plot Hole again... just stupidity of the driver ;-)
Oy vey, this kept my spare CPU cycles occupied for a few restless nights. :)

I think I came to the same conclusion you did. Not hard if you like the movie as much as I do, but my brain did hurt for a bit. :)

--
Manfrenjensenton

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Have you ever been shot at? People do irrational things when they get shot at.

~Jake

---
Stupidity? Check out The Passion's message board.

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This driver was NOT facing a terrorist attack!
That....that was something maybe he was trained for to drive away from, evasive driving from a chase---that kind of thing. This was a traffic stop.

This was (soft America..."the NSA doesn't kill people" and this was (unknown to the driver) seemingly the FBI). It was supposedly to the driver, who didn't seem to speak English, just a routine traffic stop or perhaps gov't agents. They didn't come out guns blazing; they came over politely and spoke to Bishop. Greg was sitting...sitting...not acting in a rash manner...and WAS SHOT! Surely then the driver may have been scared... VERY SCARED that either the feds in this nation are NUTS or clearly this is not a normal traffic stop and his life is now in danger.

Besides...no one ever said that, nothing was ever implied that this vehicle was bullet-proof. For all we know it could have been simply a limo with NO ARMOUR of any kind, glass or otherwise.

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A) You bring up many good points, and

B) I think we've all come to agree that the driver acted irrationally. You can relax now! :)

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Manfrenjensenton

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You know just on this driver query ( I know Im months overdue but stilll...)

I questioned this with my brother when i first saw this movie and he said to me, "Maybe the driver thought there was someone IN the back of the Limo..". Good enough reply for me...

My Top 5. Dogfight, Warriors, Reality Bites, Garden State and About A Boy

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Maybe the driver knew the starter on the limo was spotty and didn't trust it in an emergency - he figured he had a better chance running.

Reading my signature constitutes admission that I am correct. (Too late)

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Here is a plot hole I found:


Diplomatic Immunity makes you well...Immune. So the Russina limo shouldn't have been pulled over.


Oh and BTW the Star Wars line of Skywal;ker yelling Carrie is an urban Legend. Star Wars.com address this. Also another big legen is that Lucas created nine stories.

Shaun of South Carolina

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>>Diplomatic Immunity makes you well...Immune. So the Russina limo shouldn't have been pulled over.

Diplomatic immunity makes you immune from prosecution. Police are not enjoined from using force to protect the public, no matter who the bad guy is.

Think of it this way: If a diplomat in this country were driving drunk through crowds, killing dozens of people, what would the police do? "Oh, he has diplomatic plates; I guess we can't do anything." Of course not! They'd pull him over, arrest him, and leave it up to the higher-ups to kick him out of the country or do whatever else. The difference is that he wouldn't be *prosecuted* as a citizen.

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You cannot be arrested if you have DI

Shaun of South Carolina

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How's this: A violent, belligerent, dangerous person with diplomatic immunity would be "taken into custody" for the higher-ups to deal with.

In other words, while he cannot be prosecuted, the police may still do their job to protect the public from him.

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Here is something interesting I found:



DI On Traffic Enforcement

Stopping a mission member or dependent and issuing a traffic citation for a moving violation does not constitute arrest or detention and is permitted. However, the subject may not be compelled to sign the citation. In all cases, officers should follow their departmental guidelines and document the facts of the case fully. A copy of the citation and any other documentation regarding the incident should be forwarded to the U.S. Department of State as soon as possible. For "must appear" offenses, the Department uses the citation and any report as the basis for requesting an "express waiver of immunity." Individuals cited for pre-payable offenses are given the option of paying the fine or obtaining a waiver in order to contest the charge.

In serious cases (e.g., DWI, DUI, personal injury, accidents), telephonic notification to the U.S. Department of State is urged. The officer should follow his or her department’s guidelines with respect to the conduct of a field sobriety investigation. If appropriate, standardized field sobriety testing should be offered and the results fully documented. The taking of these tests may not be compelled. If the officer judges the individual too impaired to drive safely, the officer should not permit the individual to continue to drive (even in the case of diplomatic agents). Depending on the circumstances, there are several options. The officer may, with the individual’s permission, take the individual to the police station or other location where he or she may recover sufficiently to drive; the officer may summon, or allow the individual to summon, a friend or relative to drive; or the police officer may call a taxi for the individual. If appropriate, the police may choose to provide the individual with transportation.

The U.S. Department of State’s Diplomatic Motor Vehicle Office maintains driver histories on all its licensees and assesses points for moving violations. Drivers who demonstrate a pattern of bad driving habits or who commit an egregious offense such as DWI, are subject to having their licenses suspended or revoked as appropriate. This policy can be enforced effectively only if all driving infractions (DWI, DUI, reckless driving, etc.) are reported promptly to the U.S. Department of State. It is U.S. Department of State policy to assign "points" for driving infractions and to suspend the operators license of foreign mission personnel who abuse the privilege of driving in the United States by repeatedly committing traffic violations and demonstrating unsafe driving practices.

The property of a person enjoying full criminal immunity, including his or her vehicle, may not be searched or seized. Such vehicles may not be impounded or "booted" but may be towed the distance necessary to remove them from obstructing traffic or endangering public safety. If a vehicle that is owned by a diplomat is suspected of being stolen or used in the commission of a crime, occupants of the vehicle may be required to present vehicle documentation to permit police verification of the vehicle’s status through standard access to NLETS (use access code US). Should the vehicle prove to have been stolen or to have been used by unauthorized persons in the commission of a crime, the inviolability to which the vehicle would normally be entitled must be considered temporarily suspended, and normal search of the vehicle and, if appropriate, its detention, are permissible.

Vehicles registered to consular officials, including those with full criminal immunity, and consulates are not inviolable and may be towed, impounded, or booted in accordance with local procedures. The U.S. Department of State should be notified if a consular vehicle has been detained or impounded so that its Office of Foreign Missions can follow up with the proper consular official or mission.

Federal license plates issued by the U.S. Department of State are not the property of a diplomat or of a diplomatic mission and remain the property of the Department at all times. As such, they must be surrendered to the U.S. Department of State when recalled. Similarly, these license plates may not be transferred from the vehicle to which they were assigned by the U.S. Department of State without the authorization of its Office of Foreign Missions.

In cases where the officer at the scene has determined that the vehicle is being operated without insurance and/or has verified with the U.S. Department of State that the vehicle bearing U.S. Department of State license plates is not the vehicle for which those plates were intended, the Department may request that the local law enforcement agency impound the plates and return them to the U.S. Department of State. Such impoundment should only be upon the request of the U.S. Department of State. Subsequent detention of the vehicle must conform to the guidelines above.



http://www.calea.org/newweb/newsletter/No73/what_is_diplomatic_immunity.htm


Shaun of South Carolina

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Thank you. Thus, I stand by my contention that if a law-enforcement officer pulls you over with red and blue lights, you must pull over and find out what they want, even if you have diplomatic immunity.

Thus, it's not a plot hole that they were able to pull over the car.

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Well they only thing I would point out is just cause. In the example I found It cites DUI which would note erratic driving. But I suppose and excuse could be forged by an officer willing to pull over a DI tagged vehicle.

Shaun of South Carolina

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Right. It's kind of a circular problem, and in court, you can certainly argue that you were pulled over without just cause. Nonetheless, you *must* comply with police orders. Failure to do so is a crime, even if the police don't have just cause. The time to argue about it is later.

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And besides all that, diplomats are, well, diplomatic. If the ambassador found out one of his drivers didn't stop for the police, I don't think he'd be very happy. I'm sure every department of state on Earth instructs its personel to obey the laws of their host country.

That said, anyone can be arrested. Cops break the law all the time.

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"Nonetheless, you *must* comply with police orders. Failure to do so is a crime, even if the police don't have just cause. The time to argue about it is later."

And where does this obligation come from? Hmm?

If law has not been broken (and I am NOT talking about the 'legal system'), police has ABSOLUTELY NO AUTHORITY OVER YOU WHATSOEVER, and you do _NOT_ have to comply with any orders at all.

Failure to comply? This sounds like some kind of Nazi Germany sentiment.

Remember, we are free people (well, are supposed to be anyway), and the police has no jurisdiction over free people, who have not broken the law. They can't boss people around, or at least people have no obligation to obey.

Where does your false information come from?

If police uses tricks (verbal, usually) to get you to contract verbally, to admitting that you have consented to being governed by a 'legal system' (which is NOT law!), or to "standing under his authority", _THEN_ he has authority over you.

But remember, NO ONE can have any authority over you unless a) you have broken the law or b) they have YOUR CONSENT.

Now, as far as diplomatic immunity goes, diplomats are obviously under the 'legal system', and now only the law, so perhaps the police can boss them around - they basically wear their joinder as the diplomatic plates, and so on.

But if you have not consented to being governed by 'legal system', it has no power over you, and consequently, no police has any authority over you whatsoever. It is NOT a crime to "fail to comply" someone just because they wear a blue dress and blue pants and flash a lot of lights.

They may even flash you papers with some words on them that may or may not have anything to do with you. So what?

Why do you people get fooled so easily? Why have you consented to obeying this madness, and defend it so vigorously? It's like slaves defending their optional shackles! MADNESS!

The police can trick you by using words that sound like english, but are really legalese. They can say: "Do you understand?", and if you answer "yes", thinking that he is asking whether you comprehend what he said, NOW the police can do basically anything the legal system allows to you, and you become his/her bítch.

Because he is not asking what you think he is asking - he is actually asking: "Do you stand under my authority?", hence the UNDER and STAND.

The same goes if you STAND before a judge - that CREATES jurisdiction where you STAND UNDER them!

Get the picture? No?

Well, more information is available:

http://yourstrawman.com

and also in youtube, with the searchwords: "Meet your strawman".

Once you have researched this topic thoroughly, THEN come back to reply to this message and make your counter-claims - otherwise, they are based on ignorance, and thus, should be deservedly ignored.

Oh, and by the way - you don't even have to "disobey" (that could create 'dishonor', so you would lose anyway), but you can trick the trickster - you can simply OBEY CONDITIONALLY. For example:

"Sure, officer - I will do exactly as you say, gladly - if you can first prove to me that I am obliged to."

Also, even if they ask for your name, it's not YOUR name they are asking! They are asking your "person's" (or "strawman's") name, that just LOOKS like your name, but is usually written in CAPITALS, and 'surname' first (just look at all your 'official cards' for proof). So while you give your name as "John Connor", they deliberately hear it as "CONNOR, JOHN", and now you have performed a joinder between you and the 'person', and this means you are under the 'legal system', which makes you under their authority.

If they ask for a driver's license (traveling by automobile is lawful, so why would you need any license? You only need a license if you are doing commercial driving - in fact, ALL driving is commercial! If you are simply travelling with a companion (instead of DRIVING with a PASSENGER <- legalese words that have VERY specific meanings, and NOT what you probably think!), you don't need a license), and registration (regis is latin for king, and if you have registered your automobile (not a 'vehicle', unless you want to be under their authority again), you have again performed the joinder and are under their authority),

REMEMBER: the mere act of HAVING them creates a joinder and gives them authority - and if you GIVE it to them, they have all the proof they need to have authority over you.

I know it's a lot to digest, but I just wanted to point out how COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY WRONG you are in your irrational fear of some guys in blue clothes with some metal pieces attached to them. Just because they walk around wearing gun belts and carry walkie-talkies and handcuffs, doesn't mean that they aren't just regular dudes who have no more authority over you than your distant second cousin.


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Bish was moving much faster than 2 in/sec in that scene.

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[deleted]

Read the goofs page --

"Incorrectly regarded as goofs: Bishop goes to the trouble of defeating the voice entry system, which leads him to being caught. While Carl catches up with him via the access vents, getting into them needed a decoy gardener, and sending two people into the bathroom would have attracted attention."

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Don't forget that Cosmo had also disabled all the security systems with his handy-dandy remote when they were checking out Brandes' office. That's always how I thought Carl got in there.

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Well done - best answer I've seen yet for that. Though still not something they explained (i.e. saying there are security measures even in the heating ducts).

Reading my signature constitutes admission that I am correct. (Too late)

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Even a bit more than that, how's about this: Bishop and crew spend all this
time working out how he has to cross the floor at 2in per second. The same
floor that is covered by the drop ceiling that Carl drops out of. Well, why
spend all that time and possibly being caught "sneaking" across the floor,
when Martin could have just crawled across the same tiles to get over the
black box, then use his Poppiel Pocket Fisherman to snag the box at 2in
per second. Or even better, drop a flag of acoustic blanket down in front
of the box and then he could have just climbed down to grab it. The other
big hole in that scene for me was having two ultrasonic motion sensors sitting
in that corner. In 99% of most circumstances, you'd not want to put two
detectors together if they are of the same frequency (which most are), as
that would mess with the motion detection from all sorts of phasing errors.
And besides, you just wouldn't need two of them to cover a room of that size
if they were so incredibly powerful, as Whistler claims.. Even bigger plot
hole there, Whistler is cutting/editing 1/4 inch audio tape while blind?!!
With the kinda of toys he had like the samplers for the road noise, and that
digital audio editing software was cheap and available at that time, that
whole cutting scene was just silly. I still love this flic though!

$.00002
d.

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one thing i thought was funny was how he fooled people with having the box empty, not only once, but atleast twice.


i've had people jump out from corners at night,
walked through the black woods way past daylight,
i've been in ghost houses and spooky castles too,
but nothing scares me more, than you do,
a frankenstein mask on halloween, covering someone face,
horror movies and books, that make little girls shake,
sea monsters, creatures, and magic tricks, people dissapearing without a clue,
nothing gives me a chill, like you do,
since i was a kid, ghost stories i've been told,
they say upstairs strange things are going on,
imagen a face glowing in the dark,
staring in through the window where you are,
a zombie walking out from the woods in the dark,
by your headlights on the deserted gravel road with your car,
in dreams i've seen an eye patched pirate blocking my way,
he's jumping on the sofa, and noone to hold my hand and stay,
voices and sounds echo in the basement hall,
but noone like you, make my skin crawl,
i've been trying to find, and i still seek,
a gypsy woman, who can take your damn curse off me,
when you arrive,
the hair in my neck raise,
and all the ghost stories combined,
don't add up to the chill you put in my spine!

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Wait, why couldn't he cut 1/4 inch audio tape blind? In fact, most audio work is "blind" persay, the 1/4 inch audio tape would have no visual cues as to the start and stop of the sound. In fact, cutting and splicing the tape would probably be easier then trying to use software which would probably be operated by gui. Even more significant is the fact that a blind person would be more comfortable using a method that was more tactile. Play the 1/4 inch tape, find the beginning/end of audio, Grab the tape with your fingers to mark the spot and splice. Much easier and faster for a person comfortable with the method, especially a blind person. In fact as a preference, it gives his character more depth.

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Going back to Gregor the diplomant being pulled over. It wasn't the police that was pulling him over by the FBI (supossedly). Gregor even mentions how much they are a "pain in the ass." It could be that the FBI operates by different rules?

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