MovieChat Forums > American History X (1998) Discussion > I agree with Derek's dad on most point.....

I agree with Derek's dad on most point...


Besides all that "ni66er bullsh!t" talk I'd say Derek's dad made some good points. I mean why is it that the standards need to lowered in the workforce to cater to black people? Why does there need to be a certain ratio of equal race? You can't solve racism by forcing employers to hire black people just so it seems "fair". The man was right to say that if you score higher in tests it means you get the job and you're hired. And it's not a black/white issue. I've met plenty of smart black people (much smarter than me) who're completely motivated and able to take on any job.

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I completely agree. I'm guessing that Derek's Father wasn't a racist to start with but after years of seeing higher scoring candidates passed over because of they were not the correct color to fill a quota he had had enough and started classifying it as as you say "ni66er bullsh!t". I wouldn't use the same terminology but the idea is the same. The very idea even goes against everything MLK fought for.

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Exactly. He did bring up a lot of good points. Obviously there is some physical tests involved with certain jobs, like firefighters, so this isn't possible with everything but I always thought that the only way we could achieve eqality in hiring is to have "blind" interviews, where the interviewer and interviewee can't see each other. In this way, the only way to determine who is the best fit would be based solely on the resume/qualifications and how the interview actually goes. I know this isn't really that feasible in a lot of aspects but it would certainly dissolve many of the problems.

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Most jobs need interaction and some people won't fit in a team of racists.

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wherever do you think there is a "team of racists" in a professional environment?
get a clue

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Well now we know how freedomfan01-736-641705, Nice-Guy-Eddie, Doc80 really feel. That there are some smart black people and that some are smarter than they are so they are ok but all the other ones aren't. The *beep* that Derek's dad was spewing was just that. First how do we know he wasn't saying that the blacks hired weren't more qualified. So you just believe what he says and that's that. He could have been frustrated that he had to work with blacks and they actually were more qualified. He also was nto right to tell Derek that forcing more racially diverse books over 'better' ones was not right either. So because a book was written from a black point of view or about black people is automatically worse than something non-black. Derek's father was a piece of *beep* putting poisoning and hateful thoughts in his son's head. Plain and simple but I'm glad that freedomfan01-736-641705, Nice-Guy-Eddie, Doc80 attempted to clear it up for us and tell us that Derek's father was ok in their eyes.

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The "ni66er *beep* line was used specifically to make sure that Derek's dad was perceived as a racist. It was necessary because he made some sensible arguments. In fact many arguments in this movie were sensible. That's the danger of racism. And its allure because superficially it CAN sound like it makes sense.

There was a time when I would only date women with blonde hair and blue eyes out of fear that such features would eventually be breeded out and there would be no more blonde haired blue eyed people left in the world. I convinced myself that it was my duty to continue the line and help maintain the racial diversity of our species (we can't run out of blonde haired blue-eyed people. that would be horrible!). Was that racist? Of course it was.

Ultimately, we needed Affirmative Action. We still need it. Just as we needed to integrate our schools. It's not about giving preferential treatment because of race, but opening the door for equal opportunity in the future. No, it's not right to hire those who score lower.It's also not right to prefer a white candidate over an Hispanic one who scores equally. But it's necessary in order to diversify the workforce in all facets service and industry. It may not be helpful right now, but it has and will continue to open up the door for the best candidates in the future, regardless of race or color.

Fighting racism with racism. Weird, huh?



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You opened up another can of worms. "He could have been frustrated that he had to work with blacks and they actually were more qualified." You're throwing in scenarios that don't even apply to the argument. The problem is affirmative action. We shouldn't be mandating equality. it just makes everyone look like a bunch of a$$holes. Like derek's dad said, you want the best man for the job. white or black it doesn't matter. but just because the government mandates a certain quota of African Americans needs to be met is ridiculous. And the minorities who endorse AA are just making the issue more perceptually real. So in essence you didn't really say sh!t, you just flopped the topic on its head.

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I'm under the impression that Affirmative Action is part of the reason why minorities are even allowed to take the tests. Yes, in a perfect world the best man for the job would be chosen. But results get lost, buried or usurped by nepotism or whatever game is in play to maintain the status quo. It's important to keep the doors of opportunity open for all to ensure that in the future the best candidate for the job gets the job.

Otherwise you get brilliant minds going to community college while the Bush family goes to Harvard.

Yes, Affirmative Action is wrong. But the alternative didn't work. Human beings are seldom adult enough to make the right choices.



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[deleted]

Umm, there is nothing wrong with wanting the best people possible to fill a job. Hiring someone who isn't as qualified as someone else simply because they are a certain race isn't a good thing. That's why I was talking about blind interviews. In that way the best candidate gets the job and the candidates race isn't a factor because the person making the decision doesn't know.

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Go back to Stormfront.

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WORDS MEAN THINGS!

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No idea what that even means

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Stormfront is a site for white nationalist...

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Go back to Stormfront


Says the person whose username is named after a guy who worships the Devil and has written songs (while with the Misfits) supporting Nazi Youth (eg-Violent World)

Mother is the name for God on the lips & hearts of all children -Eric D. Raven

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His "arguments" were ridiculous. Basically he put all literature into two categories: good literature and black literature. It apparently never occurred to him that a black author could write a good book about black characters.

It is also a fact that hiring criteria for a large fire department is based on more than just written test scores. The father never talks about just what the actual difference was between the scores on the written test (It could be a matter of a couple of percentage points) or what the difference was on the practical/physical test that each of the candidates went through (Where the black candidates might have surpassed their white counterparts).

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You shouldn't have "black literature" or "white literature" at all. That the teacher was making the distinction in the first place is actually that I would have addressed if it was my kid.

Second, affirmative action is actual real discrimination and the details of the test score have no bearing on the argument. In fact, they call it "Positive" discrimination in Europe. Every day minorities are put in jobs over more qualified white people, and that's not right and it never has been. You can't fix discrimination with more discrimination.

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If any of you guys bothered to research it, you would know that affirmative action in the US does not instil quotas (unless there is a proven history of discrimination at the workplace e.g. leaked comments by a hiring manager). Also, there are studies to show that a candidate with a name that identifies them as black on their resume, is less likely to receive a call back for an interview. Affirmative action does not mean letting an unqualified minority get a job, no one who gets a job because of an affirmative action policy would be unqualified. Last point, research shows that white women have benefitted most from affirmative action (women of all races are considered minorities in the business world).

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What people don't realize about quota at urban fire and police departments.....

Favoritism has been going on ever since these departments existed. How do you think you get generations of police and firemen? Do you think there's a civil servant gene that makes a family predisposed to that line of work? Hell no!, for decades someone's nephew, brother, in law, etc has been GIVEN those jobs, despite their qualifications. Quotas and favoritism has been around forever, it's now that the racial pendulum has swung both ways.

Also, how many of you have taken a civil service exam? Those tests have NOTHING to do with the job, it only can test basic common sense. Someone who scores a 95 on that test is no more qualified than someone who scored a 85.

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You shouldn't have "black literature" or "white literature" at all. That the teacher was making the distinction in the first place is actually that I would have addressed if it was my kid.



I don't think "black literature" was meant to imply a binary between black and white--at least not from the approach of an English teacher. In essence, Literature has many genres... African-American Lit, European Lit, Latin American Lit, Native American Lit, and so on. Often times in US high schools, the curriculum in English classes is composed of mainly Anglo-Saxon writers. Dr. Sweeney was teaching Native Son by Richard Wright and it's a really powerful book in terms of race and class conflicts. Derek demonstrates this impact at the dinner table and it clearly threatens his father's influence. It seems evident that the main purpose for his hate speech on "black books" is because he wants to nullify his intellectual inferiority against Dr. Sweeney and to come across as a better person to listen to.

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I assume it was based on only on a written test. If a physical tests were used, clearly the black candidates would score higher. You know the old "run faster", "jump higher" thing my grandpappy told me about

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Derek's dad started off with some decent points, obviously you hire the best man for the job regardless of race (or sex, excuse the expression haha)

but it became apparent after a few more sentences that heavily engrained in the fathers mind were racist thoughts

obviously there is a distinct difference between forcing equality in terms of percentages and providing equality in terms of opportunity

although part of me wonders after hearing Derek's dad so commonplace use a deragatory term how trustworthy or reliable his comments were

quite possibly the blacks or whoever it was who got the jobs at the firehouse DID receive them due to skills and Derek's dad simply was looking at it through tinted eyes and seeing what he wanted to see instead, rather than reality. would not be hard to believe

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It seems like a reasonable debate at first. I think the point was that he wasn't content to let Derek decide for himself. When Derek is on the fence about the issue, his Dad shuts him down and drills it into him that it's "ni66er bullsh!t"; no debate.

Derek does the same thing at the table later. Those who debate him end up hitting a brick wall. It's showing where he got it from.

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He may have had some points but he was as racist as it gets. I was also wondering why he sounded reasonable but my guess is that's how they wanted to show how dangerous half-truths are. Those two white guys who had not been selected could have gone to court, sue for compensation, whatsoever. But this whole thing does not make blacks inferior in no sense, in fact, it does not have to do anything with blacks.

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My faith in humanity is restored a bit seeing people call Derek's dad a racist, and not saying "he's just not politically correct." The scene was effective for showing how dangerous half-truths and misconceptions e.g. affirmative action leads to unqualified people- this is illegal in the US and there is little evidence to suggest this happens. Most cases of AA involve a qualified minority being selected out of a pool of qualified candidates.

Anyway, it shows how these misconceptions can lead to resentment and racism, while also disguising this prejudice.

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