MovieChat Forums > Eyes Wide Shut (1999) Discussion > Why the overreaction to Bill intruding?

Why the overreaction to Bill intruding?

posted 3 years ago by Heisenberg (6652)
32 replies | jump to latest

Ok, so he was not invited and is a mere servant to such important men.

Does that warrant such a stupid overreaction?

He was just peeping at a boring, pretentious orgy. Couldn't they have a butler invite him out without the added drama?
Were they going to kill him over it? Really???
And, once you threaten death, is it really a good idea to change your mind publicly accepting that girl's sacrifice and to letting him go?

They just made it 1000 times worse. Afterwards, he had no choice but to be worried and curious and nosy. Of course he would try to investigate or call the authorities or the media.

[–] 123Guy (6857) 3 years ago

Did Epstein kill himself?

[–] Heisenberg (6652) 3 years ago

1. There was no illegal activity at that party to compromise anyone, till they do that unnecessary trial.

2. Epstein was way too involved and knew way too much. How is this comparable?

[–] 123Guy (6857) 3 years ago

according to the movie, they just wanted to scare him. and the girl's death was coincidence. but, do we believe that?

They didn't kill the girl.... they didn't kill Epstein. Was just accidental overdose... was just a suicide.

[–] Heisenberg (6652) 3 years ago

That is what this whole thread is about.
Why scare him?
That creates a ton of problems that would be avoided by kicking him out politely.

[–] AP (5276) 3 years ago

I guess we are taking the cult at face value as opposed to the larger implications? Fine.

The people involved in the cult are still very powerful people whose careers/power might be lost if it were to get out that they were involved in weird occult orgies. Politely asking Bill to leave could result in Bill running off to the media, or trying to go to the next orgy under a better disguise, or telling his friends about the situation who cause problems of their own. One way or another, they needed to scare him so he would shut up. Going by the final scene, the plan worked.

[–] Heisenberg (6652) 3 years ago

Worked?
After another 3 threats, a homicide, people following Bill, Ziegler's intervention and above all Bill sticking his nose everywhere for a week and putting together quite a few details of what went down...
That could not have been fucked worse, in my opinion. Even more so if that silly orgy was really hiding a deeper cult, like you mentioned.

The best solution, at that point, was to kick him out and not raise more suspicion from him.
At worse, tell him that they would sue him for trespassing if he tried again.

[–] AP (5276) 3 years ago

Where did you get the idea this took place in a week? Most of the movie took place within 24 hours.

The homicide (if there was one) was never meant as a threat. That was a sacrifice, from all indications. Also, I’m not sure what you mean by Zeigler’s intervention. He was obviously acting on his own and not the cult. The member following him (if he was a member and not just some random dude Bill was paranoid about) was also not meant as a threat. He was likely making sure Bill didn’t tell anyone. So really, all we have is Red Cloak’s threat and a follow up note. And since Bill shut the fuck up, it worked.

As for getting Bill for trespassing, that would require contacting the authorities which is not what they want. And again, simply kicking him out does not ensure he stays silent.

[–] 123Guy (6857) 3 years ago

I feel Zeigler was spinning the required narrative to Bill, since he was in on it, and knew Bill. I dont believe a word of his fitting excuses he fed bill, "I think you may have misunderstood two things..." the group is powerful and intelligent and out thinks the lessers, as any super intelligent chess players always do. Knowing how to handle it best for everyone involved, including coming up with convenient excuses that Bill can believe and fit, even if it is a lie [cameras failed, Epstien kills self...] ;)

So much double speak... "Remember: you said it yourself: she was going to end up this way anyway.." they filled the holes for Bill to accept it on Bill's level, not reality.

[–] AP (5276) 3 years ago

Yeah, I can see how Zeigler might've been in on it or he was just giving a warning to his friend. That's the thing with this movie. Is it a conspiracy or just some weird rich people? Did the lady kill herself or was she murdered? Is Nick okay? Was it all a dream?

[–] PaladinNJ (21383) 3 years ago

Exactly. Legal or not. A few words to the wrong people about what was happening there and their lives are ruined.

[–] BillySlater (4196) 3 years ago

Who´s lives were ruined? Bill didn´t even know who they were except that they were "rich and powerful" so how was he supposed to out them?

[–] PaladinNJ (21383) 3 years ago

He knew where the club was. From there the authorities could track down who owned it and who paid the bills. That would lead to others. Potentially he could bring the whole network down. Maybe not to the point where there might be many arrests but they could end up being publicly exposed.

[–] BillySlater (4196) 3 years ago

He knew where the house was, that´s it. Nick was given the address over the phone, and had worked with them before so its fair to say, they were moving around to stage events. I am sure the people in charge, were powerful enough to disconnect themselves from any ties to the property, if it really went that far. Even Nick, who was just a nobody piano player had the address. In addition, Bill would need evidence for police to believe his story. He had nothing. Moreover, if Ziegler wasn´t exaggerating who the people were, its not unreasonable to assume they could make any police issues go away.

[–] ManToTrust (1660) 3 years ago

How do you know there was no illegal activity? Some of the sex slaves could’ve been underage, easily! We didn’t exactly zoom in on them.

Plus he came in late. There could’ve easily been a murder ritual before he came, and they just don’t know how much he saw.

Plus the elite are extra sensitive about being exposed in anything they haven’t publicly admitted themselves. Look at how they react during inhumane Covid restrictions while partying like hypocrites.

[–] Heisenberg (6652) 3 years ago

I would expect any movie with such a plot to make it clear that there was any illegal activity if that was the case.
Since there is no such explanation, I think we can assume they were there just for what we see, so no murder before, maybe one after Bill leaves.

[–] Ace_Spade (9506) 3 years ago

So, was it an overreaction?

If the cult are supremely powerful, as they present themselves, in which case Bill's meddling in their group could have been catastrophic for them. Thus, the heavy-handed reaction is (at least from their perspective) justified.

Or perhaps they're just weird perverts with too much money. Ziegler claims it's all games. If we believe him, or if we believe that Bill needs to put all of this foolishness behind him, then perhaps it was all a game? The "sacrifice" would have just been some kinky sex game they were going to play anyway, and either the dead woman was not the same as the woman at the party, or else her death was coincidence. Either way, if they were just messing with Bill and didn't really intend anything life-threatening, then it wasn't an overreaction.

Finally, if parts, or the entirety, of Bill's odyssey into the strange worlds he visits are fantasy and/or dreams, then there is no reaction that needs to make logical sense or be proportionate to anything, as everything bears simply the proportions of a phantasm.

[–] Heisenberg (6652) 3 years ago

In case 1, his meddling could have better been dealt with just kicking him out, since they are so powerful he poses no danger anyway and has not done any harm yet.

In 2, if it is all a game including his threats, then that should have finished before, instead they kept it going for days and involved lots of people after the party itself, I doubt anybody still had a hardon by then. They looked seriously worried about him.

3, I don't see it as a dream, Alice was dealing with dreams, Bill was dealing with reality.

[–] Ace_Spade (9506) 3 years ago

It's possible, though, that the cult has certain rituals in place. Let's go back to number one. If the cult have traditions that must be upheld, maybe Uma Thurman was in the back waiting to kill Bill right up until the woman makes the sacrifice, at which point their hands are tied. He has to be let go, but they have to make a HUGE deal of it so Bill will back off. Her sacrifice is part of the rites; it must stand. Yet, they cannot allow Bill to reveal their hidden enterprises.

You make a great point about number two. They shouldn't have been messing with him, if it was just a game. Could it have just been Ziegler? Could it have been a couple cult members who just take things too far? Could Nick have been in on it? He might have lured Bill to the party so this would happen, then he did all that stuff with the thugs so Alan Cumming would think it was strange. Or is Cumming part of it?

I don't like to imagine it as a dream, either, but I do like the idea of it being...maybe "super-real" is the right term? I'm not sure. It's certainly not normal. It feels like it's on its way to being a Neil Gaiman fantasy-horror story or something.

There is another possibility, of course, and that is that these events are a series of tests to see if Bill should, in fact, be recruited...

[–] Heisenberg (6652) 3 years ago

I like your last point, that would have indeed made the whole movie better.
It always felt flat in the final 15 minutes, as in...ok, so what? That's it?!?
Instead, Bill's journey ending like that could have been interesting, showing how twisted that "elite" society is, victimizing him for days just for a test. I would have left it hanging, with Bill baffled, wondering if he should join the dark side (maybe even taking Alice with him), or stay honest, just cut to black with him still thinking about it.
It certainly feels offensive that Ziegler never asks him to join, he just tells him "back off Bill, and shut the fuck up". What a friend (even as a fake friend he sucks, totally unpolite).

[–] Ace_Spade (9506) 3 years ago

I got the impression that Ziegler might have been angry because Bill blew it. Like, maybe Bill was actually on the "maybe" list after his discretion treating the hooker at the Christmas party, but then by jumping the gun he got himself a permanent ban?

The final moments of the film intrigue me, actually. Alice's final line is so strange, especially with what's transpired, that I think the ending has some depths I'm not necessarily seeing. Like, maybe she's actually turned on by Bill's tales, or maybe they have worked through their repressions together and their marriage will be healthier? Maybe there's some symbolism I'm missing.

I know what you mean, where the climax of the film feels like something is left out or missing, but it's Kubrick. He didn't realize this? No, I think I'm just not getting it fully.

[–] Heisenberg (6652) 3 years ago

On Ziegler:
Yeah, I kinda got that impression too, that he was disappointed by Bill. But it was more a "I thought you were our buddy, let us do what we want and go back to being our servant" kind of disappointment. Like I said, it would have been a great idea to have that element in there, instead he never even hints at it, not even as a way to shut Bill up (like "you got it all wrong, come join us and you'll see it's not so bad"). The way he describes Nightingale shows that he and his peers have only disdain for outsiders of "lower rank" like them.
On the ending:
1- it's dead Kubrick, not regular one. Always smelled like horseshit that he died right after "completing" EWS, what a nice coincidence guaranteed by Warner Bros eh!
Come on, they had a movie in the can, Kubrick had certainly a bunch of rough cuts completed but not necessarily a final one and not necessarily this one, they just tamed it and picked the one that they preferred for release. Who knows if he wanted to shoot more or add something etc, starting with a different or better ending.
2- I doubt we are missig something. It just blurts out this nihilistic final scene, where all they got is that they need more fucking in their life. I can go with that, but not much deep a revelation, is it?
It just didn't match all the investigation and tension, after all that involvement the mountain just gave birth to a mouse!

[–] Ace_Spade (9506) 3 years ago

You're right, it's more of a "bad dog" disappointed than "I am disappointed in you, son..."

One of the immense qualities of the movie, though, is that it is just strange enough and gives us just enough information to form opinions without quashing or confirming, so we can read in to moments. The ambiguity of the film is lovely. Normally I don't like that kind of thing, but because Kubrick created such an odd piece with such bizarre atmosphere, I think the "what is the true story here!?" is some of the fun. It is a dreamlike picture, and it could have profound meaning, prophetic meaning, or absurd meaning - just like a dream.

1 - An excellent point, and there is no way to know for sure exactly how complete the film was. That said, it's not just the studio, but there are several people, including close family members and friends, who say Kubrick was remarkably happy with the film. Of course, there is one person (name escapes me) who was friends with Kubrick who says he hated it.

The truth, I suspect, is somewhere in the middle (as it often is). I believe Kubrick had something much closer to a "final cut" than a "rough cut" and that's what we're watching. I also believe that he would have changed things, but that the main beats of the story were in place. He might have trimmed a bit here, added something there, etc., but I think most of the important stuff is there - if not all of it. I'm guessing, of course, but that's what I think based on the number of people insisting he was really, really happy with it.

My theory is also that, while he was mostly thrilled with the picture, he did probably get frustrated or have one of those artist's breakdowns one day ("I'm a failure! Everybody hates me!") and his friend happened to get that phone call.

2 - Maybe you're right and the whole thing is just a build up to an anticlimax. But, if so, there's something delightfully absurd there, again, connecting to dreams and how they shouldn't rule our lives?

[–] Drooch (5333) 3 years ago

If the film is largely Kubrick trying to make our Eyes Wide Open about the elites getting together and having perverse sexual rituals that involve vulnerable young women/girls who end up dead, then the ending has an interesting meaning.

Notice when Kidman says ‘we’re awake now and, hopefully, for a long time to come’ it’s somewhat… unconvincing. Like, she’s not really awake, they’ve peeked behind the curtain but she wants to suppress it ASAP and just go back to ignorance, and what better way to distract oneself than to ‘fuck’?

They now continue their lives Eyes Wide Shut.

[–] Ace_Spade (9506) 3 years ago

I think that's a great take on it.

Yes, Kidman's line is said less like, "We're going to stay alert to this; our lives will never be the same," and more like, "I miss our old life. Let's go back to that." I think that the "awake" she's referring to means (to her and Cruise) that they now realize how valuable their regular lives and their marriage is. They don't want to damage it for the bizarre nightmares they were seeking after earlier in the picture.

I think Kubrick's message, though, isn't specific to orgies, but rather just saying that there are these things that elites do and get away with that we don't even know about. I don't think it's just confined to the sexual arena, nor even "mere" murder, for that matter.

[–] Drooch (5333) 3 years ago

Yeah not ‘orgies’ necessarily, but exploitative sexual practices, much like what goes on at Epstein Island.

And yes, he’s definitely drawing attention to the immense power levels of the hidden elite. They use all manner of power over Bill - intimidation, threats, humiliation, following, and most interestingly - emotional and psychological manipulation via his ‘friend’ Victor.

This has always been one of my favourite Kubricks. He’s always ahead of his time, and as we’re seemingly introduced to more and more evidence of a shady elite actually running the world (Epstein, Schwab, Soros) Eyes Wide Shut is finally getting the recognition it deserves.

[–] Ace_Spade (9506) 3 years ago

I think this is definitely underrated, but I think that has much to do with Kubrick's amazing filmography. If a critic said, "Eyes Wide Shut isn't as good as 2001, Dr. Strangelove, or The Shining," does that mean Eyes Wide Shut isn't good? Isn't brilliant? Nope. It just means that critic didn't think it hit the heights Kubrick always hit.

I have yet to see one of his movies that isn't great...

Maybe the fact that he was ahead of his time and often confronted the discomforting was the reason he never won that Oscar gold...

[–] Heisenberg (6652) 3 years ago

Oscars are shit, not gold.
They are as worthy as the Prom King and Queen title, just a popularity contest amongst misguided peers.
Kubrick was an outsider, and I doubt he gave a fuck.

This movie is great, but like you said it pales in comparison with most of his filmography.

I'm not so sure that the notion that "elites" have orgies that take advantage of poor or weak ones and abuse or even kill them is much of a revelation. It's as shocking as saying politicians are corrupted.
That is where it falls flat.

[–] Drooch (5333) 3 years ago

Well most people would file the notion of a paedo island filled with global elites as Alex Jones conspiracy fluff, now it turns out to be true, and Kubrick was drawing attention to such things in EWS.

While it’s not as cinematically groundbreaking as something like 2001, EWS is possibly my second favourite Kubrick. I love the seductive nighttime odyssey aspect, peppered with Christmas imagery and Lynchian weirdness.

[–] Heisenberg (6652) 3 years ago

Yes, the atmosphere is thick and real in this one.
But I wish it ended on a stronger note. Like I mentioned in a post above, I suspect Kubrick would not be happy with this cut and wanted to work some more on it. I think that is the real conspirancy of this movie.

I think most people would know that places like the island run by Epstein existed, exist, and allways will, to "entertain" the rich and powerful. Don't need Kubrick to tell them, it's very old news.

[–] Ace_Spade (9506) 3 years ago

I think 2001 and Dr. Strangelove would top my list, but I haven't seen Kubrick's entire filmography, and there are notable gaps in my viewing (like Barry Lyndon, for instance).

The atmosphere of EWS is great; I do love it.

[–] Drooch (5333) 3 years ago

Lyndon’s high on my list, and to my surprise I thought Lolita was fantastic.

I’m not so keen on Full Metal and Strangelove, though I acknowledge their excellence.

[–] Ace_Spade (9506) 3 years ago

Full Metal Jacket is a brilliant opener followed by a solid Vietnam War picture, so I understand that one being lower. It's not my favourite Kubrick, either, although I think it's higher rated for a lot of people.

Strangelove is one of my favourites. I laugh all the way through and I quote it endlessly (our precious bodily fluids!)