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Adolescent, borderline puerile philosophy


People who hail this film as 'deep' need to calmly rethink their notion of what it means to be human. If anything, this film reminded me of a 'quote journal' that a friend used to keep: it was a collection of famous sayings the person would write down.

Every single quote in the movie came from the mouth of a person like you or me, and is built from words that other peopoe like your or me agreed to use to communicate to one another. The whole mirrors thing...rubbish. Batou's brother failing in the search for meaning? Who hasn't heard that one before? The film seems so eager to say something that it forgets the true gem of humanity/life is communication itself. Philosophy, my donkey. =] The whole 'aemaeth' 'maeth' trick carries about the same philosophical signifigance as a baseball manager's signs. Don't think so? Both cases are based on premeditated/pre-organized 'signs' designed to communicate meaning. We, the audience, shouldn't confuse the deus ex machina of the major's hacking talent and her choice of signal to Batou to be anything more than that. If the major was able to send her signal undetected in the first place, she could have just as well shown Batou a big damn banner reading: Congratulations! It's A...Trap! If Kim couldn't stop whatever the major did anyhow, why bother with sending a 'subtle' tipoff? Extending some credit to Oshii, he has the major insert herself and Batou's dog in the 'hint'; I'll give Oshii the benefit of the doubt and say that he was making a commentary on what gives Batou a 'reason to exist', aka the dog and contact with the major, and the major using the chance to share a bit of an intimate moment with Batou. The whole 'amaeth' 'maeth' thing is just a thing that some guy made up in some other story - great literary work or not - made up and then requisitioned for use as a simple visual signal from one cop to another.

Basically, the danger in buying into and heralding such philosophizing is that you're so dazzled and awed, too busy applauding the creator for using it (and to some extent, yourself for 'getting' it) You're too busy nodding your head or comtemplating it to see that in reality, the world and the universe are far too big to be encapsulated in quotes (self-congratulatory, or existential crying-out, or emotionally stirring, or whatever kind) - quotes built from nouns and verbs that we humans agreed on. Put your Monty Python hat on and imagine Eric Idle and John Cleese engaged in the following conversation:
- Ok, when I say "Green," it means 'go.
- Green means go. Got it.
- Hey...
- What.
- You fancy this'll catch on?
- What do you mean?
- This whole green means go thing. You know, green...lush leaves, fertile grass, garden of eden...
- You fancy anybody'll give a @#$%?
- Well...someone might.
- You're right, let's just go with it.

It might be a clumsy example but it makes the point in its own blunt way: Anything that comes from the mind of a human can by nature only be an observation. No such thing can be a truth except amongst other human beings. To presume anything as a deep universal truth is akin to walking into a house that someone else built with their own two hands and plopping yourself down on the couch and spewing commentary on the decor. Who asked you? Compared to the intricacy of fabric of the universe, human speech/communication is about as delicate and ingenious as a dixie-cup-string phone. But hey, it works. And we get by. But the moment you start saying hey-we're-so-deep-aren't-we-great, that's the moment you start to stagnate, and potentially lose the drive to pass the deep and go for things deeper still. That's why the art universally regarded as 'best' usually accomplishes two things: excellence in execution, and unspoken acknowledgement of the 'unattainable' (in other words, humility and the longing for things greater still). This is where Innocence loses its footing with many viewers: the second anyone catches a whiff of pretension, they back away with their palms held out: No, thanks, man. I gave at the office. The simple reason is that we're built to detect someone who thinks they've got it all figured out. Pretension is the death-cologne of those who've lost a bit of their humility/humanity and who think they have it all figured out but in reality have stalled at some desert crossroads along the drive for bigger and better things.

Remember, everything in this movie - quotes and imagery and all, and original or not - *everything* in the picture was filtered through the mind of one man: to hail any of it as deep or meaningful is a dangerous and witless thing to do. Picture every piece of 'significant' knowledge or 'enlightenment' ever obtained in this world and imagine it as the cottage-cheese sludge being funneled through one man's mind. Now picture the lower tip of the funnel. Narrow, isn't it? I'm not saying that Oshii is narrow-minded; all of us make everyday decisions in the same way, artists included - you funnel and filter out the 'junk' and go for what you have to. But don't forget that the real picture of humanity is the 'sludge', and how each and every person goes through it looking for meaning and occasionally getting stuck. And once you find what works for you, you go with it and grow with it (usually into adulthood.)

That's why Innocence's philosophizing is borderline adolescent and why many people criticize the film's 'pretension': all of its ponderings are either things that *every* human being does, or Oshii's hand-picked (make no mistake about that) sayings. Those types of obsevations are what most human beings grow out of by their twenties. Sure, who wouldn't like the time to lay or mope around pondering the human condition: most of us lack the discipline or intellect to bother with it, or the talent and flair to express what we've found in a way that appeals to the slovenly masses - hence artists like Oshii find work. Bottom line, if you've read this far, I hope you've done away with the notion that Innocence - and films like it - are anything more than beautifully packaged personal quote journals.

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I hvn't read all the reply here , someone might have post this before~
To anyone hwo find this film confusing or difficult to understand , the interview of Oshii and the producer of the movie is a good reference (which should be in the dvd set). Briefly, they talked about the concept of the movie, oshii view about other Jap amines, the amine trend in Jap etc.

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Just watched a Japaese TV interview with the original author of GIT (I think), and found it funny how he said something along the lines of...
"oh and please, don't over-analyze or over-philosophize the quotes in the film! The characters sprew out these cool sounding quotes just because they have a google like search system in their minds which can pull out any quotes in a mere second...it's almost comical how they sometimes point out each other's sources! It's like "Hey, you googled that as well?" In the end this is a very simple story of a man who pursuits Kim, and his love."

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now now no one likes a cynic

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I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I think even you are giving this film way too much credit.
Here's a review that goes along with my lines of thinking about this film:
*Warning, not for those who love this movie...*

http://www.voont.com/ghost2

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What an asinine "review".

You commie-dupes come up with some weird fantasies about Pro-Victory Americans!

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I haven't read all the posts, but I just wanted to make this small point. I think the over-usage of quotes was quite deliberate. The characters are living in an era when nothing can be depended upon as reality. The lines separating artificial and natural intelligence grow ever more undefined. The characters use the quotes as stepping stones through this uncertainty. The great thinkers of the past have their foundations in a more clear cut world, and so maybe what Oshii is trying to convey is that both humans and cyborgs have lost the confidence to approach the questions they face on their own terms. When you cannot trust your own experience, how then can you philosophise about it?

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You hit the nail on the head there buddy. And I also think that the world of Innocence is a world of DATA. Nothing is lost. All data is saved. They have a permanent hookup to endless data streams of wisdom and writing. It can be retreived just by desiring it. Just as poeple today are the product of TV, these future cyborgs are the product of a true information age. It might be the cure for our current breed of Net intellectuals brought up on Wikipedia, blogs and the blurbs inside dust jackets.

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I haven't read all the posts, but I just wanted to make this small point. I think the over-usage of quotes was quite deliberate. The characters are living in an era when nothing can be depended upon as reality. The lines separating artificial and natural intelligence grow ever more undefined. The characters use the quotes as stepping stones through this uncertainty. The great thinkers of the past have their foundations in a more clear cut world, and so maybe what Oshii is trying to convey is that both humans and cyborgs have lost the confidence to approach the questions they face on their own terms. When you cannot trust your own experience, how then can you philosophise about it?

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it's a cartoon...and that's like your opinion man...love it when psych jobs go all moth on a light bulb on cartoons...even if the philosophy (far from a scientifically arguable concept) is short sided oshii made it owns it and may or may not believe it...perhaps he used computer programming rules as the basis for the philosophical logic in the movie...if your going to bash..hash out your arguements...don't just state your beef than move on to another idea before you clearly justify..and quit thinking we should grow out of pondering...your tone tries to hide how ignorant you feel otherwise you would not talk down to us and the oshii... PS can't wait to see your movie

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Oh no, a Continentalist.

I mean, yeah, I've yet to see a movie I'd describe as philosophically deep - 2 hours isn't long enough to really do anything in philosophy, particularly not when you also have to have a story of some kind. But you've been reading too much "post-modern/structuralist/colonial/feminist/whatever" drivel and not enough real philosophy of language. Go read some Wittgenstein or Carnap (the latter's paper "Empiricism, Semantics, and Ontology" is a good place to start), then go talk to someone who understands them, and then get back to us when you actually know some philosophy. Because right now this is a case of "pot, meet kettle".

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your <analytic> philosophy.

We human beings, the reality of the world we inhabit and the meanings of the words we exchange cannot be exhausted by a mere logical analysis of language.

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"Every single quote in the movie came from the mouth of a person like you or me, and is built from words that other peopoe like your or me agreed to use to communicate to one another."

Just on this little bit, this is true of most everything in the modern day, very little is ever original in any way, it either develops in a sort of Syncretist fashion (bringing already existing concepts and ideas from disparate schools of thought into something cohesive), or they stand on the backs of giants, see what they've done, and take the next step. Not much truly new has been thought of philosophy for some time, Derrida touched on this, implying that in a sense, the philosophical understanding we've attained is so specialized and widely varied now that originality has become borderline non-existent. His approach was more a manner of making deconstructing existing systems and asking "well, why was this the way it is? If this is the way it is, what does this mean on an ethical level" and that sort of idea...organizing the info we already have as opposed to attempting to define his own particular philosophy. Of course, ironically, his system became known ultimately as "Deconstructivism", which basically sort of backs his point since Deconstructivists are, by definition, looking into other previously existing systems.

--
*+_Charos_+*

"I have often laughed at weaklings
who thought themselves good because
they had no claws."

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while i enjoyed the movie, i tend to agree with the original post, altough i do not believe that the original poster has made a very clear argument. Here is the way i understand his arguments and why i agree with them

(by the way, ARGUMENT is not the same as OPINION, so, while i can respect or not someones opinion, i am free to agree or disagree with their ARGUMENT)


Philosoply is the art of arguing and discussing abstract ideas. The communication, or rather the dialogue and the way different points of view are expressed is what constitutes a deep argument or discussion.

Any phylosopher worth his salt will be able to argue and contemplate many aspects of a certain situation or idea, and different schools of philosophy start their arguments from different assumptions and conduct the discussions in different ways.

A 'smart' quote, such as "humanity is individuality", represents either a starting point of such a discussion, or a summarisation of one of the arguments or points of view.

Researching and finding all the interesting quotes about a certain idea, such as what it means to be human, is a good start, and presenting a good discussion or a sittuations based on certain quotes, that makes the viewer reflect on different points of view as to what it means to be human lead to a deep discussion and thus a interesting movie.

A movie such as "innocence" floods the viewer with quotes, but doesnt begin much dialogue based on this quotes, nor links them together in a very organized fashion. It feels like a good discussion could have taken place, but it didnt, and everyone involved kept throwing quotes at eachother, without discussing the meaning of those words, or what other points of view exist.
The sittuations and actions in the movie lead to much more interesting discussions and are much deeper than all the quotes and the dialogue. However, due to the flood of semi-philosophical quotes, the movie appears pretensious at times. It attempts to be much deeper than the action would allow for, and it does this by showing the viewer :" look, all these ideas out there! there are so many! some must be deep!!!", not realizing than an idea is not deep, but the discussion and dialogue starting from that idea is deep. The dialogue however, never happened.

Adolescence is a period of great chances in most people, and they tend to look for and grab anything that offers them safety and stability. Quotes are great for that, because they give one point of view, one shot oppinion, which doesnt necesarily lead to unstable (but potentially deep) discussions. They are presented as TRUTH, and teens love them (similarly to music lyrics).
This is what makes the philosophy in this movie somewhat adolescent.

Please excuse the sweeping generalizations i have made in this post, but this is i believe the essence of the argument presented by the original poster, and i believe it is a well constructed argument.

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[deleted]

Of course, a film is the sum of many parts and while characters themselves may not have had much discourse on these topics beyond quotes and remarks, the film itself in its imagry and visual, aural and thematic composition WAS the conversation that you say was missing.

Oshii is not a juvenile in the world of philosophy, at least that is how I felt after listening to him speak at a seminar in Kyoto last year. What I love about his work, such at this, is that he tells his stories with all aspects. There is no reason that the 'discussion' of concepts in Innocence be explored in lengthy dialog. Wholistically, the film communicated the essence of these ideas, and the quotes were like 'keyframes' in the flow.

But personally, my definition of 'pretension' is when a person seeks to rate or disqualify the honest, heart-felt thoughhts and ideas of another. This is not an attack on you, but I would imagine that as well versed in philosophy as you and the OP (Hungry Hippo) imply yourselves to be, you would be aware of simple matters such as the subjectivity of all thought.

Regardless if some observation or interpretation of the world or human condition is original or not, by jaded scholar's reckoning; it is the honesty of the thinker that gives the thought value. What is old-hat or 'juvenile' for some, will not be for others. Therefore, it is not only pretentious to assume the role of gatekeeper in such situations, but also ironic when the matter is philosophy.

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My biggest gripe with this movie is that they could not decide on an opinion in the physicalist/dualist debate. So if they had souls, but they were copying them... what were they copying? Make it clear whether the "soul" is a physical thing or some sort of magical spiritual thing.

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I don't think that film intended to take only one view, and I think it also set out to draw the definition that you speak of into question. In a world where man and machine are so intertwined, the idea of 'soul' and of 'being' cannot be as we see it today. The filmmaker himself is not trying to be a character in the film. The characters are just as confused and troubled by the state of the world as we are, as viewers of it.

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