MovieChat Forums > Doctor Who (2006) Discussion > Do you remember when Doctor Who was a sc...

Do you remember when Doctor Who was a sci-fi series instead of a evangelist one about diversity and identity politics?


Ah, those were the days...

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I don't remember those two things ever being mutually exclusive.

I remember many times how the sci-fi element in the show has taken the shape of an antagonist or a society that wants to eradicate or oppress notions of otherness in race, religion, politics etc, etc.

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Well, that's actually a tricky point. Up to what point are they mutually exclusive? Up to what point evangelist material is mutually exclusive with regard to other genres?

You have the same issue with movies as 'Son of God'. Is it historical genre? is it religious one?. Metacritic skips the issue labeling it as 'drama' (which basically can apply to everything). Then you take a movie like 'The Case for Christ', is it a thriller? is it religious? is it just bad?. Metacritic labels it (again) as 'drama'. Then you take 'The Bible' series. Again: historical? religious?. Wait for it.... and.... Metacritic labels it (surprise!) as 'drama'.

Maybe it's time to label Doctor Who as 'drama' ^_^

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Cool story..

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Funny cause they removed the Daleks and Cyberman for this new who, my guess is because it hits too close to home for the NPCs watching

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They don't seem to focus on portraying issues that have real resonance for the here and now. It's always topics where there is no real resolution - you can't ever expect to solve racism if you give value to race identity because "race" can be suggestive of harsh competition and trampling an opposition (when in reality race is just a biological characteristic or trend in humanity). Race/racism history is the history of people being invested in race as a divider, as an identity which excludes others.

There are bunch of issues that need attention: surveillance technology, economic class inequality, genetic manipulation, civilised exploration of space, etc. These are more significant topics to be debated and portrayed because racism can't be handled by trading ideological blows or moral lecturing, it can't be solved successfully if race is about division and identity - about tribal distinctions. It can be transformed but that is dependent upon the good will of all (the "hearts of men") and the resolution of other problems that cause division - the stuff that our survival and sovereign humanity depends upon and which relate to the example themes mentioned above.

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"They don't seem to focus on portraying issues that have real resonance for the here and now. "

I must have missed the meeting that declared racial equality and prejudice to no longer be resonant.

"race can be suggestive of harsh competition "

It doesn't have to be. And that is a issue that will always have resonance.

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These are more significant topics to be debated and portrayed because racism can't be handled by trading ideological blows or moral lecturing

Yeap.

You can't take away biology through some ideological re-education. Western society tried to eliminate sexual urges through ideology: it didn't work. The outcome was people overcompensating, virtue signaling (I'm pure! He's lewd and lascivious!) and finally sex being everywhere. You read Gothic literature, sex pervades every page.

Now it's about racism, and (again) biology can't be taken away. People favor genetic proximity, that's a biological instinct. So nowadays you have the same outcome: people overcompensating, virtue signaling (I'm pure! He's racist and nazi!) and finally race being everywhere.

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At what point were ideological blows and moralising used in the episode.
It depicted a historical event. You want to ignore history, in a time travel show?


Equating sexual urges with racial prejudice is about as moronic as you could get.

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That was as much a depiction of an historical event as The Triumph of the Will was a nonpartisan documentary about daily life in Germany.

You don't hate documentaries, don't you? :D

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Get a life.

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[deleted]

I like it too!

too much bitching about PC ness around here

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Actually Doctor Who was originally intended to be a historical travelogue to teach youngsters about history. The Rosa Parks episode returned the show to its roots.

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The roots were never to indoctrinate children with some political agenda.

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So perhaps you might have favored an episode on racism if it had been set on an alien world involving civil strife within an alien society or between two species instead of displaying the darker side of human nature here on our own world. For the record bigotry, prejudice and racism are universal human traits not restricted to white people.

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Uh, "Doctor Who" has always had an egalitarian, anti-authority bent, going back to the sixties. If you'd actually paid attention to what you were watching, you'd have realized it's always espoused liberal ideas! There's never been a Doctor who wouldn't have been on the side of Rosa Parks, the Doctor always been in favor of diversity and has has always helped the victims of systematic oppression, I don't know what the hell you've been thinking if you're just cluing in.

Although to be precise, the show has always followed the ideas of sixties liberalism more than the silly sort of modern identity politics, the Doctor wouuld never tell anyone to "check your privilege".

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Of course the old show was egalitarian. It's the modern one the one that isn't. The old show wouldn't have portrayed a whole human group as inherently evil, as the modern one does with white males.

The 60s show was actually far more socially advanced than the modern one.

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Wait... Graham is evil???

Although if you're just referring to the Rosa Parks episode, I'm going to repeat a comment I made elsewhere: Power corrupts, and in the Jim Crow South, it was only white men who had the opportunity to be corrupted by it.

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In the Rosa Parks episode, how many white male characters are complete douchebags, and how many are not?

Percentage of douchebags among white male characters in that episode? What would you guess?

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White male douchebags do exist, you know, in fact I suspect I'm in active communication with one!

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Aha. But I didn't ask your opinion about me but about the percentages of 'douchebagness' in white males in the show, which you avoided. So it seems that you don't see anything particularly strange about it.

According to this last season, 90% of white males are likely douchebags. What's more: according to the show, 100% of white males from the 50s-60s are douchebags, and that pattern goes beyond this last episode. The xmas special included two characters from the 60s that were portrayed as... wait for it... yes, douchebags.

But for you, that's not racist, that's completely normal. Anything else?

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Actually, in the Jim Crow South, it was a white man's bounden social duty to be a complete asshole, and that is the absolute historical truth so there's no point in objecting to it. That really was how things worked, in Montgomery, Alabama in 1955.

And if you're keeping statistics on how white males are portrayed across an entire season of episodes, get a fucking life. Or find another show to watch.

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The absolute historical truth is that's xenophobic bullshit.

If two centuries from now the SJW trend is about animal rights, you (as a citizen from this time) would be portrayed as a complete douchebag who is permanently angry with animals, abuses them constantly and can't help but talk about how much you hate them and how you like to enslave and kill them.

Do you think that's an accurate portrait of you?

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You dont know anything about the history of the Civil Rights movement or the Jim Crow South, do you.

Obviously not.

So FYI the social order of segregation and racism wasn't maintained so much as by law, as by violence, murder, and every day assholery. Anyone who got "uppity" was intimidated or assaulted, and any white man who didn't participate in n the intimidation at least was branded an "n-word-lover" and suffered social penalties if not intimidation or assault. The episode about Rosa Parks got that right.

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That's actually textbook xenophobia.

Social systems can be better or worse, but in any social system, most of people just care about their business and support their family and friends. Most of people, in general, are good people, even when it comes to the worst social systems, as Nazism or Islam or Subsaharian cultures. And US in the XIXth and early XXth is far from being among the worst in History.

In general, xenophobia likes to portray every person inside a community as an evil being, a violent douchebag that exudes, as you say, 'every day assholery'. This is indeed what Nazism did with Jews: the Jew community were a bit of assholes (as a community) in the early XXth Germany. What Hitler did? He actually did the same did with Jews than the screenwriter from the Rose episode of Doctor Who did with with white males: he portrayed every Jew as a douchebag exuding, as you say, 'every day assholery'. Nothing new, that has being the brandmark of xenophobia through centuries.

And it's happening now, again. History repeat itself, and sadly the farce uses to end up as drama.



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Those who do not remember history are doommed to repeat it.

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Racial segregation existed at the time and location the episode was set.

What's the point in pretending it didn't?

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Yes Racial segregation existed, however what kuku is espousing is that not everybody would have agreed with it, it would be like saying every German was a Jewish hating Nazi and never showing that people like Oskar Schindler existed helping Jewish people escape.

Of course at the end of this episode this was said by the Doctor: "Across Montgomery, people refuse to use the buses, as a response to Rosa's arrest. And in just over a year, on the 21st of December 1956, segregation on buses in Montgomery was ended." So that showed that not everyone caucasian (males included) was a douchebag, however it would have been a nice touch to show some locals of the time lending a hand as they were obviously there, hence only taking a year for the bus segregation to end.

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The show has always been somewhat progressive, but the story generally came first before. I have not sat down for this season but the last couple were not very good and somewhat ham fisted with some of its themes. I still remember when the Doctor punched the racist guy. Here is a man who has sat and had pleasant conversations with mass murders and he is going to punch someone because he is an ignorant racist? It was so completely out of character, so stupid.

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'progressive' in the 60s-70s was a completely different thing. 'progressive' now is a another story. That word uses to be applied to the newest trend in town, but new trends can be very different among them. They can even be the exact opposite of the one before. Classic Doctor Who (and I include Russell T Davies era in the 'classic' group) is oil and water with the modern one (post-Moffat)

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The poster is literally the progressive oppression stack.

White Women
Black Man
Dark skinned woman
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White Male

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It's funny, I made a post after the second episode making the same point. So now following on there's been an episode about racism in the Deep South around the time of Rosa Parks? Ha, could the writers make it more obvious what they're going for with this show? Is there going to be an episode where they go back to the time of the Suffragettes? Perhaps it could portray all men being a-holes to women during it.

Seems to be an hour of race and gender politics masquerading as a sci-fi show. It's like now they've made the Doctor a woman, it's opened the floodgates in terms of the egalitarian angle the writing can go in. Or am I wrong and it's been this way for a while?

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Tweet I saved awhile back haha.

https://i.postimg.cc/v8vt3PV2/Dr-Who-Narrative-Copy.jpg

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The protagonist had a gun. I wonder why he didn't just use it against his target...

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