MovieChat Forums > Doctor Who (2006) Discussion > Thoughts on the giggle

Thoughts on the giggle

posted 5 months ago by peter_t_2k3 (979)
17 replies | jump to latest

My favourite of the specials. I'd say 9 out of 10, with questions about the ending making it not a full 10.

I think the toy maker was great. I wonder if he's fully defeated as it would be great to see him return.

I loved the stuff with the puppets, the rhyming one etc. and the scene where the toy maker does a puppet show of the doctors history after he last left Donna, showing everyone who died, was such a dark but great scene.

I usually hate cheesy music e.g. RTD using toxic back in the end of the world, but the scene with the toy maker in unit with the spice girls was another great scene.

Gatwa was also great. He has such an positive demeanour which is infectious. I'm just not sure how it works with 2 doctors. It's like the show can't let go of Tennant. I'd have preferred just a normal regeneration as we already had the half human doctor to give rose a happy ending and I don't think we needed this again.

Does this mean that this doctor can regenerate sperate from 15 or will he just age and die? I just feel it confuses things for new fans

[–] capuchin (2715) 5 months ago

It's like the show can't let go of Tennant.

Yeah. It's like Russell T. Davies can't let go of Tennant (or his own ego). This troubles me.

Loved the episode right up until bi-generation, which I thought was RTD really indulging his penchant for sentimentality. I mean, I found that so horrendous that if I hadn't previously encountered his work, I'd right now be going 'Ahhhh, so there's the Disneyfication I was fearing' or reaching for a sick bag. Let's just stay instead that RTD and Disney are well-matched in a way that Moffat and Disney would not be.

But, yes, it's not the first time I've profoundly disagreed with one of his decisions. And we march on. Gatwa looks like he's going to be a lot of fun. Overall, I enjoyed the episode. A lot of great stuff in it. Puppets are always creepy fun.

[–] peter_t_2k3 (979) 5 months ago

Yeah I found it more experimental really than the last episode which most raved about but I wasn't that keen.

And yeah it just doesn't sit fully right with me. Past doctors work best as one ofs. Is it not rude to basically ruin the new doctors thunder by having another doctor going around that is not a past but current version

[–] capuchin (2715) 5 months ago

Yeah, It might be a bit rude. But, above all, I just think it's naff. 'OH, WILLY WONKA GOT A FAMILY'. It's real Tim Burton level shite. Puh-lease.

But, like I say, it's not the first time. I didn't approve of him bring Rose Tyler back to provide a 'happy ending' by unravelling his own perfectly acceptable initial narrative. He does this. He's a soft git. But that's why he has the popular touch, I suppose.

Overall, I like what he does -- so you just have to live with the bits you could do without.

[–] hurricane (1924) 5 months ago

For the most part, I enjoyed it.

I thought Neil Patrick Harris knocked it out of the park. Even his cheesy Spice Girls dance number felt in character.

Though, I did feel the ending somewhat suffered a bit. They'd really sold The Toymaker as a villain of almost no equal. It was a great moment when The Doctor asked Donna to go back to the TARDIS. The Doctor has let his companions stand with him facing Daleks, Cybermen, The Master. Donna herself even helped defeat Davros. But as soon as The Doctor discovered who this guy was, he wanted to send the companion away. That felt huge in establishing The Toymaker as a top-tier villain. But then what? He was defeated in a game of catch. I get that he can't turn down a challenge, but they'd made him out to be this big villainous bad-ass, who is almost impossible to stop. Then he lost because he dropped a ball? Felt anti-climatic. Maybe it'd have been better if this was a two-parter, or something. Found some real clever way of beating him.

Also, I wasn't keen on the bio-generation. I get that they're trying to do a new start for the Disney+ international era, and were trying to have The Doctor let go of his past. But having two Doctors now, and one just kind of semi-retired felt weird.

[–] capuchin (2715) 5 months ago

I agree with most of that -- except I thought the game of catch was an amusing anticlimax.

I think that is indeed the intention with the bi-generation: to give Ncuti Gatwa's Doctor a clean slate and not have to carry all the baggage from previous eras around with him. Personally, I don't see how this couldn't be achieved through a simple, standard regeneration and just having Gatwa's character be written that way. Seemed unnecessary to me. Every new Doctor has a clean slate.

For me, having a second Doctor hanging around out there has the opposite effect to a clean slate. It holds on to the past. Also, it was a rehash of one of RTD's old tricks (Human Doctor who went off with Rose), so I worry a little that he hasn't got any new tricks up his sleeves. On the other hand, it did technically make the 60th Anniversary a multi-Doctor story, which kept that tradition going.

But no matter. The episode had a lot in it that I did like, especially in the first forty minutes... although I could also do without the new UNIT building looking like something out of Marvel. But I was only informed of that after I'd watched it, so wasn't really aware of it at the time.

[–] peter_t_2k3 (979) 5 months ago

Yeah the game of catch was a bit weird like surely someone that powerful would never miss although I suppose he can't cheat.

I do wonder would it have been better having the toymakers presence throughout all 3 specials. I agree Neil Patrick Harris was great and would have loved to see him more. I usually hated it when RTD would use cheesy pop music like this but it so worked for the character.

I just think having 3 different versions of a tennant doctor is a bit too much. The show feels like it's desperately trying to cling on to him and I feel it's hurt 15

[–] hurricane (1924) 5 months ago

Yeah. Unlike the clone of The Doctor with Rose stuck in another dimension, the fact that 14 is still in the same universe as this Doctor, and has a working TARDIS means he can just turn up any time he likes.

Seems weird that 15 is there, and 14 could come and help him if he wanted. And makes you wonder why he wouldn't from time to time.

[–] peter_t_2k3 (979) 5 months ago

Yeah I mean especially if we have episodes set on modern day Earth

[–] Dogiswhite (1141) 5 months ago

I kind of think that is the point of 14 staying on Earth, so he can pop in for adventures with 15 from time to time. Russell T. Davies says there will be a Whoneverse, so we might see 14 appearing in those shows too.

[–] hurricane (1924) 5 months ago

Though I will always happily watch David Tennant as The Doctor, you do wonder if it would undermine the new Doctor if you have a previous one keep cameoing.

Yes, multi-Doctor episodes are cool, but if Tennant is in it too often, it risks overshadowing Gatwa. But if Tennant is never in it, you kind of would wonder why he isn't. Are we expected to accept that in modern day Earth episodes, the 14th Doctor would just sit around doing nothing when there is danger, and let the 15th Doctor deal with it? That feels out of character for The Doctor.

You risk Tennant's presence hanging over certain episodes, even when he isn't appearing.

[–] peter_t_2k3 (979) 5 months ago

I'm not a fan of this anyways but I think doing this now with the first black actor to fully take on the role, it just doesn't sit right with me.

I say to fully take on the role because we had the fugitive doctor who might end up being regulated to extended media only.

It just doesn't seem right and seems a bit odd considering how RTD normally works

[–] Dogiswhite (1141) 5 months ago

Davies said that at least for 15's first season, there will be no team ups with 14. I think Russell intentionally teased the fans by bringing back Tennant and Tate, when he really didn't have a good reason to do so. And the Toymaker, while a fun character that I would like to see again, is actually too powerful even for Doctor Who stories. He can rewrite a person's life history, which apparently can change the entire universe as well. Anyway we fans should be wary of Russell 's reliance on fan sentiment to cover up his lack of original ideas. I think Gatwa will be a great Doctor, but hopefully his stories will be great also instead of these middling specials turned out to be.

[–] hurricane (1924) 5 months ago

I actually enjoyed the specials. More so the first and last, than the middle one.

But I can take your point. My enjoyment of the first one may have been more down to the novelty of Tennant and Donna returning than because of the actual episode. But that was perhaps somewhat necessary. Tennant and Tate coming back were always going to be the focal point of the episode, rather than the story. Writing too big a villain, or too complicated an episode would've been a bit of a distraction considering the appeal was Tennant's return.

I'd have left it as it is, but maybe made the Toy Maker episode a two-parter to get more of NPH.

[–] Dogiswhite (1141) 5 months ago

I was looking forward to a more meaningful group of specials than what we got. I probably would have had the Doctor and Donna meet again under different circumstances and her recognizing him immediately. He would look for some way of saving her and get caught in the Toymaker's trap. Then we get some flashbacks as explanation for newer viewers and maybe something like the Doctor must play the Toymaker's game to try and save Donna, but if he loses he dies that sort of thing. So if was written well, it could have been a really good 3 part story. But then again what they gave us was not bad at all, just disappointing.

[–] peter_t_2k3 (979) 5 months ago

I think it would have made more sense for Tennant to also accept the end.

One thing people mentioned when his return was announced was the whole "I don't want to go" side to him.

It would have been interesting if maybe he'd came back somehow to do with the forced regeneration in power of the doctor, like 10 from the edge had somehow got out to fix Donna.

Would have then worked well to see the doctor finally accept going, showing character development

[–] Dogiswhite (1141) 5 months ago

You are onto something there. I agree it would have been better to accept his fate (death), he would have grown as a character. Instead we have this "Captain America at the end of" Avengers: Endgame" kind of Doctor. Do we actually believe like cap that he will not get involved if a world threatening problem comes up? No he's just gonna let the other guy handle it.

[–] peter_t_2k3 (979) 5 months ago

Yeah the captain America ending was odd. He's certainly not one to sit down and not help

The show just needs to breakup with tenant