Ok, Betty haters... - Mad Men (2007) Discussion

[–] Kassie24 9 years ago

I liked Betty a lot. I don't know why people dislike her so much. I thought she was really sweet and a good mom. She did the best she could.

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[–] fede_4488 9 years ago

She was a bit of a bitch, to be honest.

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[–] kenny-164 9 years ago

From Don's pov, and imo Don probably knew Betty better than Henry did, I think by the time you get to the end of the series, with his knowledge of her condition, I think there was a genuine regret he was no longer with her. I've often said the only woman Don really loved was Anna Draper, albeit platonic, and also his kind of platonic/mentor/confident love with Peggy was up there.

But after having gone through the course of his second marriage, and how it was (I think) a real mistake, Don had I think more perspective on his first marriage. Yes she had difficulty following their divorce, leading to arguments with him and problems Don did not like seeing with the way she dealt with her children, especially Sally.

But near the end I think he admired her for going back to college, and of course their sexual encounter that I think just had to happen.

Don came to respect her, which was missing from the period leading up to their divorce. Was that lack of respect Betty's fault? To some significant extent, even if not all of it? How one answers that song in turn will affect how one answers whether he should have had it back then.

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[–] duaneincali 8 years ago

not to overstate it, but......
betty is the sole reason I do not rate this show as high as say sopranos.
every time she came on I just got bored. if they could have not had her entire presence and storyline the show would have been the greatest ever. they spent way, way too much time on the wifey.

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[–] planet17 8 years ago

Sopranos also spent a lot of time with Carmela and Tony's family life. I think the main difference here is that Carmela was usually more conected to that "Tony's family life" part of the story, which means her stories was usually conected to Tony in a way or another. I think Betty had more storylines about herself than Carmela had. And I think that's one of the best things about Mad Men. The supporting characters are allowed to exist and have their storylines and arcs despite Don.

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[–] pfarnell 8 years ago

And Carmela is a *beep* as well..I think I loathed her more than I ever disliked Betty..his wife and his sister both are.
Actually of course, so was his late mother, wasn't she, worst of the lot of them.Possibly the worst woman on TV, maybe the worst set of women ever on TV.

He would not stand much chance of having a really +ve image of women, would he?

the main thing with Betty is her meanness with her children...the old 'you wait till your father gets home"..except she meant it and followed up on that.

I'm not a holistic SNA parenting type, not at all, but the bitch shocked me more than once, how she was with the boy in particular.

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[–] planet17 8 years ago

No, they're all just flawed characters. Don psychologically abused and tortured Betty and he did a lot of despicable things. Tony was even worse. Far worse. They're both called "antiheroes" for a reason, right? They carry some despicable qualities and do some some despicable things, but they're the main characters of that journey and you see things mostly through their eyes.

Tony for instance was undeniably more despicable than Carmela, and she was a victim of his abuse. For some reason, she is the one the fans hate. Blame the writers? Blame the audience? Blame both? The thing is, female characters are more vulnerable to a certain kind of hate. But at the end, in both Mad Men and Sopranos, you're just talking about flawed characters who carry a lot of complexity.

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[–] pfarnell 8 years ago

They're both called "antiheroes" for a reason, right? They carry some despicable qualities and do some some despicable things, but they're the main characters of that journey and you see things mostly through their eyes.

absolutely...I more than once empathised with situations he found himself in, dealing with his crew even..I never had any real particular problem with him, as 300 pound Gumbahs go..

Tony for instance was undeniably more despicable than Carmela, and she was a victim of his abuse. For some reason, she is the one the fans hate. Blame the writers? Blame the audience? Blame both? The thing is, female characters are more vulnerable to a certain kind of hate.

I'd have to think about "certain kinds of hate", maybe comparisons such as Skyler White, and Gemma (Morrow??Teller?? )..but the thing with Carmela, the infuriating thing, was the fking hypocrisy of her..
You sign on knowingly with a criminal, which she certainly did, and apparently eagerly, you take on the full package, fine days, grey days. Plenty do exactly that, I'd maybe suspect even that they almost ALL do...but not her.
She's embarrassed at the tennis club by the ladies whispering..she either bitches about that to herself, and probably to him. The FBI raid their crib, she's on him about it..and then there was the Catholic Church BS of hers..there's the flirting with the priest, poor little neglected Carmela, the flirting with the interior decorator or wtf he was, (played by Joe Penny) ...then the thing with Furio/Fulvio wtf his name was, he had to flea back to Italy.
She put all of those men's lives at risk, also...
She hates what he does, every time something goes wrong,price of doing business, ie, every time there is the slightest blowback on her in any way, the hooknosed battleaxe let's loose on him..
Then...she demands 15k for a trip to the Vatican to see the "heavenly father"..
Steals money, the thing with the cache of money she found in the garbage skip..

No wonder the guy outsources...I was him, I'd have fking clipped her years ago..I mean, the legal way is just to leave her divorce her, but you can imagine the price he would pay then in the courts.
He did leave her eventually, after throwing her up against the wall, and beginning to choke her out, and after detailing some of the same grievances I have outlined...her moaning and groaning, but she likes her upscale house and kitchen....and then, clear of her, he went back. Fool.

As for the sister and the mother, jesus, just 'complex" you say??? lol..
They are VILE women, lol..maybe you get simple vile and complex vile, fine, they're complex vile women.
One of the most descriptive and memorable scenes in the show was when the one-legged Russian woman calls her a "*unt." as she is taking back possession of her artificial limb.Amen to that, and her male companion who smacked Janice in the mouth ...the gross fat bitch with Rolling Stones tongue inked on her boobs is not even tough enough to take her lumps, she falls down on her haunches crying how unfair it all is, lol..fcku her, lol.
Like her SIL, another lying thieving quasi-religious hypocrite too..Carmela with the Vatican, Janice with Buddhism or Hindu Krishna or whatever other shyt she claims to have picked up bathing in the Ganges , lol..
Worker's compensation fraudster.(RSI??)
Is that how she paid for the sabatical to India? lol..
I'm seeing where the complexity comes in, lol..

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[–] planet17 8 years ago

I'd have to think about "certain kinds of hate", maybe comparisons such as Skyler White, and Gemma (Morrow??Teller?? )

Yes, Skyler is one example of this. So is Claire Underwood from House of Cards, Cersei, Catelyn, Sansa from GoT, Fiona Gallagher from Shameless, Julia from Nip/Tuck, and plenty of others.

but the thing with Carmela, the infuriating thing, was the fking hypocrisy of her..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV-D5SvQnF0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj6E7Z1dNv8

Tony was hypocrite too.

The thing about that fight in the first video is that, besides the emotional pain she is feeling because she reached a point where she can't take it anymore, they're both lying. When he asks about the money she lies, but when she asks about the fingernails he also lies because that was from another mistress that she didn't know about, which makes his "That-" and her "That what?" so good. My point is they're both flawed, they're both liers and they're both hypocrite.

Carmela was just not a cold blooded criminal as he was.

and then there was the Catholic Church BS of hers

Tony did not go to church as much as she did, but he had the same catholic values. Not only Tony, but Christopher, Sylvio and the other guys too.

there's the flirting with the priest, poor little neglected Carmela, the flirting with the interior decorator or wtf he was, (played by Joe Penny) ...then the thing with Furio/Fulvio wtf his name was, he had to flea back to Italy.

And there were thousands of women Tony hooked up way before all that.

Do you understand my point? They're both flawed, they're both hypocrite, they're both liers. And Tony was the one doing far more despicable things. But Carmela is the one getting all the hate. Now I ask: why?

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[–] catbookss 8 years ago

They're both flawed, they're both hypocrite, they're both liers. And Tony was the one doing far more despicable things. But Carmela is the one getting all the hate. Now I ask: why?

Well, you already know what my answer would be to that question ;). I don't think the other poster is honest enough to admit it though, since he (or she) has ignored your points.

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[–] planet17 8 years ago

Because there are certain roles and behaviors that are expected of women. It's not a coincidence that some of the women mentioned here are wives that "dared" to confront their husbands.

Tony had sex and had affairs with countless women, but Carmela is the hateful one because... she flirted with 3 guys? Seriously, how ridiculous is that?

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[–] pfarnell 8 years ago

she dared to confront him?? really? What was it that she confronted him about?
Her husbands known open life as a Mob boss blowing back on her?
refer above.
Why didn't she just go on strike with spending the money or the expensive gifts and living in the house.
Remember when she took this issue to her priest?
What was his advice?

Only take the money which comes from honest sources?


As for his philandering, I had to laugh again when she extracted a promise from him to "never do it again.." Jesus...pathetic.

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[–] catbookss 8 years ago

Because there are certain roles and behaviors that are expected of women. It's not a coincidence that some of the women mentioned here are wives that "dared" to confront their husbands.

Right. That automatically means they're all vile b!tches.

Tony had sex and had affairs with countless women, but Carmela is the hateful one because... she flirted with 3 guys? Seriously, how ridiculous is that?

Seriously.

As I think you know, I couldn't get into the Sopranos, having lost interest by the end of the first season. But for anyone to compare someone flirting with three people with another who's had countless affairs is ludicrous.

It's similar to those who vilified Betty for having one fling after she'd finally gotten fed up, while giving Don, who'd had many affairs, a pass, and some even admired him for it.

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[–] pfarnell 8 years ago

Actually, NO, and I probably should have picked this up when other poster raised it, I NEVER villifed Carmela for flirting with 3 people whilst Tony had numerous affairs, or else not on the basis of infidelity.

I added that to her charge sheet , mainly because of the potential consequences for those men!
They could wind up being harmed, maybe in the river.

The primary basis on which I vilify Carmela, is her sheer incessant hypocrisy regarding who she is, who he is, and who and with whom she chose willingly to be.

She chose to be a mob wife, then, somehow, expects not only the money she spends contentedly in profusion to be laundered...she expects her LIFE to be laundered.
When there is trouble, he has to deal with this fkn harpie on his back to add to the rest of his shyt.
That's why she continually sickens me.

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[–] catbookss 8 years ago

I really can't comment on Carmela or her husband from personal knowledge, as I don't even know if I made it all the way through the first season. Pretty much all I remember are the scenes with the psychiatrist and Tony.

However, I've read a number of people's opinions about the two, and invariably Carmela, who never killed anyone, gets vilified while Tony, who's a cold-blooded murderer, doesn't. That may make sense to you, but it sure doesn't to me.

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[–] satterthm 8 years ago

It's so typical and transparent. These people hating on characters like Skylar and Betty think their obvious bias and double standards aren't glaringly obvious. Don has always gotten a pass for his behavior (don't even get me started on Walt lmao) while the wives are held to ridiculous and unevenly high standards. I was never a fan of Don but I felt happy for him in the finale when he finds inner peace. I also sympathized with Betty, despite her emotional detachment issues. I felt sad for her in the finale because she's a human being who is suffering from a terrible illness.

I'm not really a "fan" of either but even I can spot the hypocrisy. I have no problem recognizing the parts of their character that many would find sympathetic. Male characters like Don are praised for their complexity and sometimes even excused for their nastiness. Women characters are scorned and hated for their flaws. Honestly, its kind of disturbing how hateful some of the comments are about Betty & her cancer because those same people would be bawling if it had been Don. To the Betty haters who refused to have any sympathetic feelings for Betty's illness, regardless of her nastiness....like damn, are y'all ok? lol.

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[–] Savage-B 8 years ago

Yes, Skyler is one example of this. So is Claire Underwood from House of Cards, Cersei, Catelyn, Sansa from GoT, Fiona Gallagher from Shameless, Julia from Nip/Tuck, and plenty of others.

i understand the exemples from got, although cersei is... well... you know...

but fiona? i don't think she fits that, since she is a very beloved character among the fans.

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[–] planet17 8 years ago

You edited your post after I replied to you.

As for the sister and the mother, jesus, just 'complex" you say??? lol..
They are VILE women, lol..maybe you get simple vile and complex vile, fine, they're complex vile women.

Vile women? Ok. I can get that interpretation. But by the same logic you have to consider Tony, Christopher, Sylvio, Ralph and most of the male characters vile men too, right? Or vile complex men.

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] pfarnell 8 years ago

hey, they're soldiers. Ok? they are soldiers in a war. It's a dirty job, someone has to do it, war is hell, lol.
They chose to be in the "army" , they rarely complain about it too much, maybe Walnuts does some...I can't stand him either, btw..the money is dirty, they take dirty money, it's all the same to them..
SHE snatches the money, a good chunk of it, and then bitches about it being dirty...then asks why there isn't more, lol..

they have Catholic values? Of course they are all token Catholics, they are Ginnis...we saw in Godfather III kind of what the connections there can be..
I've never seen them hanging around the Church, or taking $$$ trips to the Vatican, I would blow my stack if they did, lol..I'm not sure if we ever see them in confession, priest might be U/C FBI wearing a wire, lol..

they are soldiers...she's a fkn housewife with a designer kitchen and goes to tennis club, lol..either get in and STFU, or get out, or get out and get a straight moke and/or a job, Carmela, lol..

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[–] planet17 8 years ago

hey, they're soldiers. Ok?

No. They're cold blooded criminals. Not soldiers. Criminals. Murderers.

they have Catholic values? Of course they are all token Catholics, they are Ginnis...we saw in Godfather III kind of what the connections there can be..
I've never seen them hanging around the Church, or taking $$$ trips to the Vatican

And what is the difference if they don't go to Vatican? I'm sorry, but I don't see any consistency in your thought process. You praise the male characters for the same reasons you hate the female characters. Your post is a clear example of that certain kind of hate I mentioned.

Let me put it this way: You hate the female characters for being hypocrite and vile. I already mentioned how hypocrite and vile Tony is (which you conveniently ignorered). So we've seen several times Tony praising all the family values and how important and sacred family is. And we've seen Tony killing people from his own family or that he considered family. Now I ask you: Is that not hypocrisy enough to you? Is that not vile enough to you? And more importantly, how is what Carmela does more hypocrite or vile that what Tony does?

I'm sorry, but it just seems that you're desperately trying to justify amoral decisions of the male characters, while blindly hating the female characters.

they are soldiers...she's a fkn housewife with a designer kitchen

Another example of that kind of hate.

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[–] pfarnell 8 years ago

and you'd be aware of the context of the word 'soldier" in a show like Sopranos..

And more importantly, how is what Carmela does more hypocrite or vile that what Tony does?

I'll tell you why, again, more concisely...she pretends clean hands. She snatches the money, eagerly, happy to spend it on an affluent lifestyle. THEN, she breaks his balls when it in any way blows back on her..whispering about her at her ladies clubs about 'oh, that's the Mob wife" (they're right, so it is, btw)She could get out any time she wanted, she could also have elected to not ever get in.
And how HAS it even blown back on her,ever, in material terms? An awareness that others know, that she can not ever be fully accepted in the haut social circles...the FBI tossed their big house once or twice.
BIG DEAL
But she bitch bitch bitch...then snatches the keys to the new Cayenne in driveway.
THAT is why I can't stand her.
THAT is the difference, HER to THEM.

Her daughter is a little the same, in dribs and drabs.
Oh, woe is me, the shame, the shame..but she is nice and comfortable materially, Daddy's little girl. and a nice spot at a nice NYC college.
One of my fave scenes was when Tony bailed up the arrogant edgamacated little victimhood-mongering weasel (Noah??) she was dating, lol..
See? It's not just the women I hate.Some of the men, lol..

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] pfarnell 8 years ago

I'm always doing that, I was not aware there had been a reply when I edited.

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] maggimae83 8 years ago

Bingo! She learned how to parent from her mother.

maggimae83

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[–] Ace_Spade 8 years ago

I felt bad for her fate, but overall she was a pretty nasty person. Don had her ire coming most of the time, but the things she says and does to the kids (particularly Sally) is pretty heinous, even given standards of the era. She could be cold, nasty, vindictive, and conniving.

I wasn't happy she was left with months (or weeks) to go, but come on, she could be an awful person.

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] Ace_Spade 8 years ago

If that's true, that's awful, and I hope Weiner's been able to move past it.

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[–] fivepointstar 8 years ago

Betty was a child in many respects.

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[–] Ace_Spade 8 years ago

Yes, she was. Don actually calls her out on it (scolds her for being a child) in an early episode, I struggle to remember which one.

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[–] captaincankles 8 years ago

I would have liked for don to leave her for Rachel & then Betty to commit suicide because her facade of a perfect family is over & then don & Rachel leave happily ever after & Rachel becomes the loving mother Sally always deserved & Don gets the wife he always deserved. The series was repetitive crap cause they got rid of Rachel

I ate this blonde Texan bitch.

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] captaincankles 8 years ago

Rachel & Don were soulmates. Rachel only rejected Don because he wanted to run away without his children. If he had proposed to leave Betty & allow Rachel to be a proper stepmother & take care of his children, she would've accepted. Of course Don's children would love Rachel more than they ever loved their horrid mother Betty. Betty would become depressed cause her "perfect" family be would be ruined & she would realize that she lost the best things to ever happen to her: her children & Don. Betty would then commit suicide. It's perfectly logical since Betty was depressed 98% of the series!

I ate this blonde Texan bitch.

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[–] Moonlighty 8 years ago

If they were soul mates they would have ended up together. Nothing stopped them but their incompatibility. You need to really calm down on your fangirling and watch the show a little more objectively instead of inserting your own narrative into a show that doesn't support what you wish had happened.

-
Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that I'll be over here looking through your stuff.

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[–] planet17 8 years ago

Those posts sound curiously familiar. I think it's that same poster that kept saying last year how much Jon Hamm should leave his wife to be with Maggie Siff. 

I laugh everytime I remembet that.

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[–] maggimae83 8 years ago

Rachel was too smart and had too much self respect to get involved with Don who, at that time, was incapable of being faithful to any woman.

maggimae83

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[–] captaincankles 8 years ago

if betty had died & don was left all alone, rachel would've gone with him. i believe don would have been faithful to rachel because he truly loved her. he didn't love betty or megan, hence the cheating. don was too good for betty & megan.

I ate this blonde Texan bitch.

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] maggimae83 8 years ago

I agree. I don't think anyone can say Don was a "good" man. He was an interesting man, a complicated man, a wounded man, a charismatic man, but he was not a "good" man. And Rachel, I'm sure, was raised to value herself too much to risk everything she had for him. And I don't understand why Spreckles or Cankles or whatever she is calling herself now can say she is such a fan of Rachel when she thinks Rachel should have ended up with Don.

maggimae83

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[–] kenny-164 8 years ago

Yeah and ftr I don't think anyone can say that Don did not love Betty and Megan. Both relationships were problematic to be sure. And there's love and then there's love. But no love? I wouldn't say that at all.

Yes. Don was a complicated man.

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[–] doug65oh 8 years ago

Actually, a Don/Rachel pairing might have been interesting. What we got to see in the beginning certainly was. Personally, although the way things went is fine, I'd have liked to see that opening arc continue for say two more episodes before Rachel left New York.

To wish for or believe in the perfection of something proves nothing more than the wisher/believer is human and as such no better or worse than the membership of some sterile "fan base" constantly put under the microscope and examined like rodents.

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