MovieChat Forums > The Tragedy of Macbeth (2022) Discussion > Why do it in the origianl Shakespeare di...

Why do it in the origianl Shakespeare dialouge?


Why not update it to be in modern dialouge? The way it's written makes it impossible to understand unless you are familar with the source material.

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I agree 100%. They made a progressive choice by having a black lead, but unless you're taking the time to dissect every line of dialogue, it makes no sense to keep it in old English and should have updated it.

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Because that's how Shakesphere adaptations are usually done. Just look up what you don't understand after the movie, lol.

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It’s on AppleTV, so there are subtitles. Imagine watching Prospero’s Books without subtitles, gasp!

I prefer original text over adaptations myself, unless the director is some super-genius like Kurosawa, which, frankly, Coen is not. He’s very very good, no doubt, and I love the Coen bros films, but heck, this version of MacBeth is nothing compared to Polanski’s version, which is sheer brilliance.

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I agree. The Polanski version is way better than this.

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Old English? Shakespeare is early modern English. Your high school diploma should be sufficient. Try out a little Beowulf if you want to take on some old English. https://youtu.be/CH-_GwoO4xI

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"Old English" as in no one talks like that now.

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The thing, samonajoes, is that Old English has a specific meaning linguistically. Since Old English is defined as a specific point in English evolution you should not use it as a generic term for a form no longer spoken.

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Right. It would have made more sense to say, "...it makes no sense to keep it in early modern English..." but then you'd probably start to realize how moronic you were sounding.

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By your "standard" the English spoken in the late 19th century would be "Old English". Learning and using accurate terms exponentially improves communication.

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Depends. Let's say someone says something is the "bee's knees. His friend asks "what does that mean?" They could respond with "oh it's an old English term". Old doesn't necessarily mean Old English, it's just an old English term. In my first response. I didn't capitalize the "o".

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Thanks for proving everyone else's point. The accurate answer would be bee's knees is a slang expression that was popular in the USA in the 1920's, though it's origin is older. "old English" would not only be confusing but inaccurate.


I suggest you follow this adage: If you find yourself in a hole, first stop digging

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bee's knees is a slang expression that was popular in the USA in the 1920's, though it's origin is older.


That's a lot longer than just saying "old English" without capitalizing the "o". If you know what Old English sounds like, then you would know what I'm talking about. The fact they are correcting me I proves they know there's a difference.

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Being accurate takes more time. Thanks for your insight. Good night

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Shakespeare didn't write in Old English, or even Middle English. He wrote in Elizabethan English, and it's not terribly different from the version we speak today. I think anyone with a high school education should be able to understand it without issue. As an aside, I doubt many who aren't able to understand it will bother to watch the movie.

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Well, to be fair, I think you're overstating the case. Much of Shakespeare should be decipherable to the modern ear, but there are plenty of dead words (vocabulary that has completely dropped out of use), false friends (words that we still use but whose meaning has changed), and turns of phrase that are no longer common (if they ever were).

I regularly read the King James Version of the Bible, which I'm sure you know is from the same era. The vocabulary range is far less than the works of Shakespeare and it still at times can require work to really understand.

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It's not in old English, ignoramus. It's not even middle English. Shakespeare is modern English.

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I didn't capitalize the "o" in "old". I wasn't referring to Old English. I just meant it as old fashioned.

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It's not that uncommon (there were 2 Shakespeare adaptations recently with Hopkins and Fassbender that didn't change the words either) but yeah, the dialogue is hard to understand, especially if English is not your first language. Subtitles or not.

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The poetry and power of Shakespeare's dialogue is worth listening to. While I acknowledge it can be a hurdle for some, it's a hurdle well worth overcoming, because suddenly the depth and power of monologues like "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" bowl you over.

The truth and depth of the words Shakespeare put down are the best part, for many of us, of these stories. I like adaptations, too, but there is great value in the original lingo.

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I haven't seen this film yet so can't comment on the dialogue...however I had this issue with Roman Polanski's Macbeth (1971). It didn't help that I watched it tipsy... but damn it was complete gobbledygook at times.

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I agree 100%.
The viewing experience is completely ruined.
I could not care less for authenticity when you are already modernising the material.
They just took the easy way out.
Of course it is waaay ballsier to rewrite Shakespeare trying to keep his style and weight, instead of cut and pasting his words in something alltogether new.

This is the movie equivalent of those lame quote tattoos that idiots get, that they have to explain to anyone else because it's unintelligible.

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How did you feel about the Leo & Claire version of Romeo & Juliet?

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I liked it, great adaptation.
This is something else.

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I'm surprised you're not critical of it for maintaining the Shakespearean dialogue while placing the story in the modern day and lacing it with Baz Luhrmann's stylistic flourishes.

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That was highly understandable and it worked on every level.
This one is quite the opposite, plus it's 25 years later. In 2022 is old news to redo yet another modern version of Shakespeare but keeping the original words intact.
And I'm not asking for a translation anyway, just a faithful ADAPTATION that would WORK nowadays and be intelligible without the need to be a linguist.

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Your last statement makes me think that we have failed both ourselves and our children. If Shakespeare is no longer intelligible--if we have reached a point where we can no longer adequately understand one of the English language's greatest writers--then we've fucked up.

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1 languages evolve, this crap is ancient and outdated
2 who the fuck says I am supposed to understand old English?
3 Do I need to learn ancient greek to appreciate Homer or is that also our failure?

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One thing that makes Shakespeare Shakespeare is the beauty of the language and his wordcraft. It's not just the plots and characters. Take away with the force of the language and you've stripped Shakespeare's works of a lot of their power.

Also, it's not "Old English." The official designation is Early Modern English.

Old English would be Beowulf (which at this point is truly like a foreign language). Middle English would be Canterbury Tales (which isn't quite a foreign language but it's largely indecipherable for modern readers). Early Modern English is Shakespeare and the King James Version of the Bible.

Speaking of the latter, I read the Bible regularly. When I do I usually read the King James Version rather than a modern translation. The reason is because of the beauty and force of the language.

I do believe that if we allow ourselves as a culture to forget how to read these works then we truly will have lost something important.

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All that is as important as wanting to keep nazi Germany aryan, or we truly will have lost something important. Ideologically there is very little difference, other than the violence employed.
Any forced "tradition" that has no place in current times is just a way to block progress out of fear of change and of the different. There is nothing important to lose, everything is still there but it is not current anymore than gladiators.

Every classic has its place in history. We hold them in our present time intact, but their power is going to CHANGE no matter how hard we try to preserve their currency.
The beauty of the language of the wordcraft goes for almost all classics, not just Shakespeare, yet we should not be forced to learn hundred of old languages to appreciate them in a modern format.
That is why they are adapted.

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I agree with you: it's important to study the classics. I also think we're years away from Shakespeare becoming as difficult to read as Middle or Old English. If you give a slight nudge, hear it spoken, and analyze it a bit, it opens up quite nicely. I think the problem is with teachers who don't understand it, who give up, who think it's dull and communicate that to their students (some of whom grow up to be English teachers, who are bored of the "dull" Shakespeare...)

The other big problem is that it's taught the same way as novels. It's theatre. It's supposed to be studied, yes, but also heard and seen and performed. Get students performing (just on-book - no need to do full productions) and trying to figure out the wants of their characters, and I think a LOT of Shakespeare would become alive for them.

I'm presently working my way through Sir Gawain and the Green Knight - the original poem - in Middle English. It's slow going, but honestly, it's not too hard. I started out needing to stop and re-read every line several times to discern meaning, but the more I read, the easier it is. Most of the time now I only need to look something up once or twice per verse. And you know what? It's really, really rewarding. The flavour of the older linguistic style, its metre and its feeling - it's a great experience. It feels like dipping my toes into the truth of the myth. So, to that extent, throwing something out because it's hard or difficult to understand is a quick way to mostly enjoying shallow things, never growing. Caving to this impulse to never try hard is a problem, especially in a school or learning environment. But even in a non-academic world, I think people are cheating themselves by giving up just because something's hard to understand.

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I won't claim that Shakespeare is easy to read. Largely due to the extensive vocabulary and often-baffling turns of phrase, I find his work significantly more difficult than the King James version of the Bible. Still though, as you say, Shakespeare is far more comprehensible than Old English (basically a foreign language at this time) or Middle English (very difficult, especially if the spelling isn't updated to modern conventions).

I think what would be helpful would be to have a companion book to go along with whatever work you're reading where someone with the relevant credentials explains the more difficult passages.

Regarding your copy of Sir Gawain, I assume that the spelling has been updated. Surely the text doesn't look like this:

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cme/Gawain?rgn=main;view=fulltext

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Some Shakespeare I find easier than others. Julius Caesar, for instance, pops. At least for me, I find it quite rips along. Some of the Histories are a bit more opaque to me, but a lot of that is due to the large supporting casts of lower-grade nobles jockeying about.

The best bet, in my opinion, is to slow down and drink deeply of the text, and to speak it aloud, if possible. It's much easier to understand when giving voice to the characters - which should come as no shock to anyone, really.

I'm not saying it's easy, but I think people make it harder on themselves than they need to.

Some of this, ironically, is due to the weight he's given, I think. It's deserved gravitas, but I think it's often intimidating going in.

That's pretty much exactly how it looks, yeah, with the thorn-variant letter for "th" and that squiggly "three" looking thing for "gh" and/or "y". It's this one:

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=31101873066&searchurl=an%3Dj%2Br%2Br%2Btolkien%26sortby%3D17%26tn%3Dsir%2Bgawain%2Band%2Bthe%2Bgreen%2Bknight&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title2

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I didn't like Luhrman's Romeo + Juliet, but I dig Coen's Macbeth.

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I was iffy on Romeo + Juliet the first time I saw it but for whatever reason I decided to give it another chance and it grew on me.

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It just seems aimless to me. Actors don't seem to know what they're saying (like DiCaprio), the ideas seem random, like it wasn't thought through in terms of the text... Yeah, it's just kinda chaotic and shouty. I know people who like it, but I didn't care for it. There are some elements I respect. I like the design of the film, I like the slight change to the end scene, and I like Pete Postlethwaite and John Leguizamo.

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Really, the film had me the moment Brian Dennehy says "Hand me my longsword!" and reaches for a big ass handgun.

I am not, overall, a fan of Baz Luhrman's style--I've watched Moulin Rouge twice and can't help but dislike it--but I like what he did with Romeo + Juliet.

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I can respect that people enjoy it, but it wasn't for me. I did not like the handgun-as-longsword thing, particularly that the brand-name of the handgun was "Longsword", instead of Colt or Beretta or whatever. The very start - the newscast thing - I liked, but the film started to lose me with that dude SCREAMING, "A DOG OF THE HOUSE OF CAPULET MOVES ME!!!!!" right at the camera. I thought it was a poor choice, and it never really picked up from there.

Again, that's just me. I know people who have great taste and like it, so no judgements.

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The main reason to read or hear Shakespeare isn't really the plots, it's the writing. Modernize it and you've still got the story, but you've lost eighty percent of the art. For modern audiences, the thing to do is to see the plays (or movies based on them) multiple times, and read them. You gradually grow familiar with the language and they become more interesting.

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Stick to spongebob squarepants. Anyone incapable of understanding Elizabethan English has no understanding of the words we use to communicate today.

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Spongebob totally and brutally powns this movie.
On every level, starting with artistic choices and cultural relevance.

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