I myself think Ellie is too smart an individual to not realize that Joel is lying to her. I think she knows very well that Joel did some horrible *beep* to keep her with him. And ultimately, I think Ellie will come to resent Joel for his actions. That's how I look at her "Okay" at the end the of story.
That's definitely an applicable reading of the ending because, as you said, it's not concrete. I think it's a bit out of character for Ellie though, who's thus far shown a lot of attachment issues.
We also have to keep in mind that while she can certainly infer that something weird happened in Utah, we don't know how far her knowledge of the situation extends. The last we see of her conscious is when she's trying to break Joel out of the sinking bus. After that, we know that Marlene and the fireflies resuscitated her and (I guess) promptly drugged her to get her ready for surgery. We don't know just how long Ellie was awake and if she knew what was going to happen...Surely they didn't resuscitate her and not say a word to her before putting her under?
So, while we know that Joel went HAM in the hospital, and even ended up killing Marlene in a really cold and brutal fashion, Ellie has no clue. It's not necessarily likely she ever will, either.
I read the end more as a conflict with her. As you mentioned, she can infer there's something absolutely wrong in the story she's told, but I think she's simultaneously angry and grateful to Joel, instead of just irate or disappointed. It's why, for the first time, she mentions Riley (if you play the addendum to the story Left Behind you can kind of see just why she fights so hard to stay with the people she cares about) and seems to be really nervous about bringing up the topic at all. Their relationship, which has principally been borne out of necessity and dangerous circumstances, is definitely going to change by the end of the game, but given the unpredictable nature of this world, they may just fall back on each other for protection later in life as well.
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bakerstreetdozen
9 years ago
This is just my personal take on things.
I think it's worth bringing up the fact that Ellie definitely had some survivor's guilt, due greatly in part to her relationship with Riley (which is expanded upon in the DLC, as you mentioned). They were bitten at the same time, and naturally both assumed they would die together, but as we know that wasn't the case. Ellie's been carrying that around with her ever since, and because of everything that's happened she really needs her life to have meaning and purpose. The potential for the Fireflies to manufacture a vaccine is what keeps her fighting each day.
I believe it's in Spring, shortly before the giraffe scene, when we see that Ellie isn't acting like her usual self. Granted, she had been through hell with David, and obviously that's part of it, but I believe part of Ellie's behaviour has to do with the fact that she knows their journey is drawing to a close. She's probably wondering what it is she'll fight for after all is said and done. Granted, as gamers we know Ellie is not meant to survive, but I don't think she really knew that just then.
I do agree that Ellie is very smart. She has no way of knowing everything that happened at the hospital, but she's certainly not so naïve that she believes everything Joel tells her at the end. She has doubts, but at the same time I do think that she probably trusts that Joel did whatever he did to protect her. But again, Ellie's whole reason for fighting every day was so that her immunity could help the Fireflies produce a vaccine. It'll probably be extremely hard for Ellie to find a reason to keep going again.
--
'Save me, Barry!'
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jacob_barreiro
9 years ago
So, it seems like where we disagree the most is on Ellie's motivation during the journey. I don't think it was explicitly to be a martyr, although by the end she's increasingly despondent. Which shows during Spring when she's more reflective, and is even more noticeable in the epilogue, where her and Joel practically swap personalities. For once, he's loquacious and enthusiastic, while Ellie is terse and withdrawn. The irony being, Joel might have liberated himself from his 20-years of misanthropic or disinterested guilt by saving Ellie, but that simply restarted the cycle of pain for her.
However, on the argument that Ellie was fighting just to be the savior of mankind, I disagree. At the end of Left Behind, look at this conversation Riley has with her...it's also worth noting that the entire DLC parallels Riley with Joel who were both, in a way, protectors and important to Ellie.
But we fight... for every second we get to spend with each other. Whether it's two minutes, or two days... we don't give that up. I don't want to give that up
This is what Riley tells Ellie, when they think they're both doomed. The voiceover shows during this scene Ellie taking Joel from the mall in Colorado, I think clearly establishing a parallel and shedding light on why Ellie is so attached to people, why she fought so hard to save Joel and risk her own life multiple times.
I personally think the ending of Left Behind supports the view of the ending of TLOA that Ellie is still grateful to Joel, although understandably disappointed.
What do you think?
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bakerstreetdozen
9 years ago
I see what you're saying. I will agree with you that the Left Behind DLC parallels the main campaign in a few different aspects, but I have to otherwise stand by what I said before.
Let me clarify that when I say that Ellie had survivor's guilt, I don't mean that she was necessarily suicidal, or that she couldn't eventually find that weight lifting away to allow a happier existence. It's simply as it sounds: after going through so many traumatic events, particularly being bitten and surviving where her best friend did not, Ellie needs for her life to really mean something in order to understand -- and moreover, accept -- why she continues to live when Riley and countless others suffer an entirely different fate.
I don't think the Fireflies explicitly told Ellie she would die during the procedure, or asked her permission to end her life in the event that such an outcomdwwas necessary. The reason I say that is because of what Marlene says when Joel is escaping with Ellie -- 'She would want this.' If Ellie had given consent, Marlene would have said, 'Ellie wanted this.' Having said that, I absolutely believe that Ellie would have given her life to the Fireflies' cause.
Fast forward to the end once more, where Joel -- though he's lying -- is telling Ellie that there are countless others like her, who are immune, and that the Fireflies have failed at trying to make a vaccine. Whether Ellie believes all of thia or not, this boils down to Ellie now feeling as though there wasn't some grand reason for her immunity and her survival after all.
Joel is a proper mess in many ways himself, and I think that even though he lied to Ellie at the end, their companionship is something that is mutually beneficial. They've helped each other already, and will likely continue to do so.
--
'Save me, Barry!'
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jacob_barreiro
9 years ago
We're just about on the same line of the page.
I don't think the Fireflies explicitly told Ellie she would die during the procedure, or asked her permission to end her life in the event that such an outcomdwwas necessary. The reason I say that is because of what Marlene says when Joel is escaping with Ellie -- 'She would want this.' If Ellie had given consent, Marlene would have said, 'Ellie wanted this.' Having said that, I absolutely believe that Ellie would have given her life to the Fireflies' cause.
I always assumed this too. Mostly because Marlene's journals and tapes suggest she was losing power with her own group, and believes she was only asked as a perfunctory or complimentary means. Likewise, during her conversation with Joel, she seems dogmatic--"There's no other way." To which Joel replies something like "You keep telling yourself that *beep* That line from Joel was great and made me think of a few things. About how he'd seen this situation before, with his daughter, or when he talked to Ellie about why the military bombed large portions of Boston for the "greater good". This was a guy who'd spent 20 years witnessing people enacting brutality on others, all rationalized, and he couldn't let it happen one more time.
I agree with you that Ellie most likely would have consented to be put under in the hopes of making a vaccine. Although i've talked elsewhere about the impracticality or unrealistic vision that a vaccine would save a lot of people. That most of us think, or know, and that Joel thinks, and knows, that Ellie would consent to this adds another layer to the ending and Joel's decision to double-down on dishonesty. It's only appropriate in some ways, since he surrogates her as a father, and she's a teenager, that he makes some life decisions for her that she'd understandably be angry with.
Whether Ellie believes all of thia or not, this boils down to Ellie now feeling as though there wasn't some grand reason for her immunity and her survival after all.
Great point. That's kind of why I interpret the ending as her being disappointed with Joel. It's a disappointment that she might overcome, but probably not for a while.
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